ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
Making a mistake and comparing a non-existant massacre to 9/11 are miles apart. The Guardian is a great newspaper - to wrap your fish with.
Making a mistake and comparing a non-existant massacre to 9/11 are miles apart. The Guardian is a great newspaper - to wrap your fish with.
WOW... why does anyone even bother arguing w/ you? lol i'd be scared. Oroo walk away w/ your head down now.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
why bother, his posts are like britney spears, pretty but vacuous, and thats being generous.
at every chance he blindly defends the palestinians campaign of terror while always pointing to israel as the source of all wrongs, implicitly justifying their actions, as if the palestinians lack free will and are automatons destined to kill civilians. as if a yet he considers himself objective and others blind.
not to mention ussually spends his posts attacking the poster, not the content. he's endlessly called me an "isreali apologist so don't listen to him" in countless other threads for pointing out that nothing justifies their calculated tactics, and yet by his twisted logic, he's not a apologist for palestinian terror
somehow collective punishment is horribly wrong against palestinians, yet he's blind to the fact that suicide bombings are collective punishment on an entirely different level of inhumanity. he talks of leadership when almost 90% of the palestinians support suicide bombers. he is blind to the fact that the palestinians see all the gains they have made as direct products of their strategy of terror. he is truely blind.
he pretends violence is inevitable and the only path for people to take. let alone violence against defenseless civilians. he creates such false dilemas. ask ghandi or dr king if this is true. the palestinians didn't ask dr king or ghandi, they chose the wrong side at every chance. instead of trying to create a strong peaceful society in the face of adversity, they decided to sell their childrens future down the river in the name of hateful vengence.
the palestinians may have gained some sympathy in the past for the willingness to kill themselves in bombings. after all, any cause where people are willing to go to such extremes must be righteous? now we see how niave that view was. suicide terrorists in 9/11, countless suicide bombers in iraq trying to blow up troops and embassy/humanitarian buildings, bombings around the world involving suicide bombers. many involving people with middle class upbringings in stable families who were later indoctrinated into commiting attrocities, not out of desperation but calculated religious zeal and hatred. arafats own wife who lives in luxury on 100,000 dollars a month in france is "desperate" enough to state that it would be favorable in her eyes if her son become a suicide bomber.
he makes antisemitic conspiratorial statements such as the israelis have a "a hold on America's wallet and balls doesn't make what you do right" and you just let him get away with that? don't let the rhetoric of the likes of linblahice blind you.
at every chance he blindly defends the palestinians campaign of terror while always pointing to israel as the source of all wrongs, implicitly justifying their actions, as if the palestinians lack free will and are automatons destined to kill civilians. as if a yet he considers himself objective and others blind.
not to mention ussually spends his posts attacking the poster, not the content. he's endlessly called me an "isreali apologist so don't listen to him" in countless other threads for pointing out that nothing justifies their calculated tactics, and yet by his twisted logic, he's not a apologist for palestinian terror
somehow collective punishment is horribly wrong against palestinians, yet he's blind to the fact that suicide bombings are collective punishment on an entirely different level of inhumanity. he talks of leadership when almost 90% of the palestinians support suicide bombers. he is blind to the fact that the palestinians see all the gains they have made as direct products of their strategy of terror. he is truely blind. he pretends violence is inevitable and the only path for people to take. let alone violence against defenseless civilians. he creates such false dilemas. ask ghandi or dr king if this is true. the palestinians didn't ask dr king or ghandi, they chose the wrong side at every chance. instead of trying to create a strong peaceful society in the face of adversity, they decided to sell their childrens future down the river in the name of hateful vengence.
the palestinians may have gained some sympathy in the past for the willingness to kill themselves in bombings. after all, any cause where people are willing to go to such extremes must be righteous? now we see how niave that view was. suicide terrorists in 9/11, countless suicide bombers in iraq trying to blow up troops and embassy/humanitarian buildings, bombings around the world involving suicide bombers. many involving people with middle class upbringings in stable families who were later indoctrinated into commiting attrocities, not out of desperation but calculated religious zeal and hatred. arafats own wife who lives in luxury on 100,000 dollars a month in france is "desperate" enough to state that it would be favorable in her eyes if her son become a suicide bomber.
he makes antisemitic conspiratorial statements such as the israelis have a "a hold on America's wallet and balls doesn't make what you do right" and you just let him get away with that? don't let the rhetoric of the likes of linblahice blind you.
Swap roles of Israel and Palestine:
Israel finds itself imprisoned in what it believes it's own "god-given" land facing an impossible enemy in the superiorily armed Palestinians with the unquestioning backing of the worlds last and only super power, police raids and rockets being thrown daily into your "neighborhood" (i.e. your little corner of section 5432) and you think they would sit on their hands reciting the Torah? Hard to say what they would do in Palestines shoes, but based on the fact that they defend what they do have so aggressively I can't imagine it would be any less severe than what the Palestinians do.
Neither party is evil; both are egotistical, over zealous, fundamental, aggressive, at times brutal and involved in a war that can never stop, especially not under the influence of the US. It would do everyone good, Israel, the US, Palestine, the rest of the world, for the US to really fall back to the sidelines in this conflict. Israel would be forced to comprimise, the Palestinians would get a small chunk of land, everybody would be slightly less homicidal. It's not as if Israel isn't already surrounded by people who want them, what could it hurt to have one more piddly little country that doesn't much care for them on it's border? Hell, most of the Arab world hates Israel BECAUSE of the Palestinian factor. Not to say religious differences wouldn't play a factor, but that would be one less SIGNIFICANT issue fanning the flames.
**EDIT: Almost forgot, my personal belief as to why we're so ferverent at backing up our Jewish buddies is based on two considerations:
1.) The geographical location of Israel makes it a valuable strategic partner in a very tumultuous and influencial region of the world.
and
2.) Religion. This nation is run from the top down by Judeo-Christians with an ear ever present on the railroad of the "apocalypse." This is for real, it sounds too crazy to be real, I wish it weren't true, but it's real. It's like revalations is the only part of the "good book" that anyone remembers. If we're not in there paving the way for the second coming of Christ, we might miss out on the everlasting NASCAR race in the sky, or worse yet, got saight ot hey-yell! On one hand, Christians naturally hate Jews because they're "Christ Killers" but they need them because they're "the children of God." The Israelies don't buy into any of this crap, they just want their land and it can't hurt having the US in your corner.
Israel finds itself imprisoned in what it believes it's own "god-given" land facing an impossible enemy in the superiorily armed Palestinians with the unquestioning backing of the worlds last and only super power, police raids and rockets being thrown daily into your "neighborhood" (i.e. your little corner of section 5432) and you think they would sit on their hands reciting the Torah? Hard to say what they would do in Palestines shoes, but based on the fact that they defend what they do have so aggressively I can't imagine it would be any less severe than what the Palestinians do.
Neither party is evil; both are egotistical, over zealous, fundamental, aggressive, at times brutal and involved in a war that can never stop, especially not under the influence of the US. It would do everyone good, Israel, the US, Palestine, the rest of the world, for the US to really fall back to the sidelines in this conflict. Israel would be forced to comprimise, the Palestinians would get a small chunk of land, everybody would be slightly less homicidal. It's not as if Israel isn't already surrounded by people who want them, what could it hurt to have one more piddly little country that doesn't much care for them on it's border? Hell, most of the Arab world hates Israel BECAUSE of the Palestinian factor. Not to say religious differences wouldn't play a factor, but that would be one less SIGNIFICANT issue fanning the flames.
**EDIT: Almost forgot, my personal belief as to why we're so ferverent at backing up our Jewish buddies is based on two considerations:
1.) The geographical location of Israel makes it a valuable strategic partner in a very tumultuous and influencial region of the world.
and
2.) Religion. This nation is run from the top down by Judeo-Christians with an ear ever present on the railroad of the "apocalypse." This is for real, it sounds too crazy to be real, I wish it weren't true, but it's real. It's like revalations is the only part of the "good book" that anyone remembers. If we're not in there paving the way for the second coming of Christ, we might miss out on the everlasting NASCAR race in the sky, or worse yet, got saight ot hey-yell! On one hand, Christians naturally hate Jews because they're "Christ Killers" but they need them because they're "the children of God." The Israelies don't buy into any of this crap, they just want their land and it can't hurt having the US in your corner.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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your leaving out the fact that almost all the land in the area is occupied by arabs. the israelis defend their land so desperatly because they are surrounded by overwhelming numbers of people who would love to push them into the sea, and have done more then talk about it on several occasions.
if isrealis were imprisoned on a scrap of land and caused havoc when hundreds of millions of jews controlled the entire middle east, tried to push palestinians into the sea several times and supported terror, i'd find it petty too.
if isrealis were imprisoned on a scrap of land and caused havoc when hundreds of millions of jews controlled the entire middle east, tried to push palestinians into the sea several times and supported terror, i'd find it petty too.
There's nothing petty about it, this is life and death to these people. It's about some guy rolling into your neighborhood, singling you our from your neighbors, kicking the sh1t our of you, throwing you out of your own home and into what was once your dog house. These people have a right to be pissed. If I was in their shoes I would be equally pissed, same goes for an Iraeli, same goes for you or anybody else. They're using terror as the only means of retaliation, I'm not justifying it's usage, but they have NO other recourse. I say give them some land and deal with act 2. Can't be any worse than what the first act is doing to the planet.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
well but thats the not the way it happened. its not as if a hoard of israelis got off boats and kicked people out of houses. at the time of the UN partition most of the houses and land were bought from palestinians. then the palestinians went to war over and over and lost, some fleeing their homes.
and its not true that the only choice they have is terrorism against civilians. that is a false dilema. did dr king or ghandi resort to terrorism?
its not as if you see germans bombing civilians for the territory carved out of germany as compensation after they lost the war.
and its not true that the only choice they have is terrorism against civilians. that is a false dilema. did dr king or ghandi resort to terrorism?
its not as if you see germans bombing civilians for the territory carved out of germany as compensation after they lost the war.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
why bother, his posts are like britney spears, pretty but vacuous, and thats being generous.
at every chance he blindly defends the palestinians campaign of terror while always pointing to israel as the source of all wrongs, implicitly justifying their actions, as if the palestinians lack free will and are automatons destined to kill civilians. as if a yet he considers himself objective and others blind.
not to mention ussually spends his posts attacking the poster, not the content. he's endlessly called me an "isreali apologist so don't listen to him" in countless other threads for pointing out that nothing justifies their calculated tactics, and yet by his twisted logic, he's not a apologist for palestinian terror
he pretends violence is inevitable and the only path for people to take. let alone violence against defenseless civilians. he creates such false dilemas. ask ghandi or dr king if this is true. the palestinians didn't ask dr king or ghandi, they chose the wrong side at every chance. instead of trying to create a strong peaceful society in the face of adversity, they decided to sell their childrens future down the river in the name of hateful vengence.
the palestinians may have gained some sympathy in the past for the willingness to kill themselves in bombings. after all, any cause where people are willing to go to such extremes must be righteous? now we see how niave that view was. suicide terrorists in 9/11, countless suicide bombers in iraq trying to blow up troops and embassy/humanitarian buildings, bombings around the world involving suicide bombers. many involving people with middle class upbringings in stable families who were later indoctrinated into commiting attrocities, not out of desperation but calculated religious zeal and hatred. arafats own wife who lives in luxury on 100,000 dollars a month in france is "desperate" enough to state that it would be favorable in her eyes if her son become a suicide bomber.
he makes antisemitic conspiratorial statements such as the israelis have a "a hold on America's wallet and balls doesn't make what you do right" and you just let him get away with that? don't let the rhetoric of the likes of linblahice blind you.
how the hell is that antisemitic? he's questioning their influence in regards to US foreign policy... he's not saying he hates them - or looks down on them. You're the one throwing out statistics to prove all palestinians deserve the treatment they're getting from the Israelis. Maybe you're anti-arab? while you criticize him for bashing you in the majority of his response...you did the exact same thing to him. at least their is some logic behind what he has to say.
why do you keep making references to ghandi and dr. king? the hell is your point? It's not like the israelis are out desperately fighting for peace either. they sort of help provoke the havoc as much as the Palestinians do.
i think PainTrain made an excellent post, and if you can't at least agree to some of the things he says... you're waaaaaay too bias on this issue.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: Pers
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
why bother, his posts are like britney spears, pretty but vacuous, and thats being generous.
at every chance he blindly defends the palestinians campaign of terror while always pointing to israel as the source of all wrongs, implicitly justifying their actions, as if the palestinians lack free will and are automatons destined to kill civilians. as if a yet he considers himself objective and others blind.
not to mention ussually spends his posts attacking the poster, not the content. he's endlessly called me an "isreali apologist so don't listen to him" in countless other threads for pointing out that nothing justifies their calculated tactics, and yet by his twisted logic, he's not a apologist for palestinian terror
he pretends violence is inevitable and the only path for people to take. let alone violence against defenseless civilians. he creates such false dilemas. ask ghandi or dr king if this is true. the palestinians didn't ask dr king or ghandi, they chose the wrong side at every chance. instead of trying to create a strong peaceful society in the face of adversity, they decided to sell their childrens future down the river in the name of hateful vengence.
the palestinians may have gained some sympathy in the past for the willingness to kill themselves in bombings. after all, any cause where people are willing to go to such extremes must be righteous? now we see how niave that view was. suicide terrorists in 9/11, countless suicide bombers in iraq trying to blow up troops and embassy/humanitarian buildings, bombings around the world involving suicide bombers. many involving people with middle class upbringings in stable families who were later indoctrinated into commiting attrocities, not out of desperation but calculated religious zeal and hatred. arafats own wife who lives in luxury on 100,000 dollars a month in france is "desperate" enough to state that it would be favorable in her eyes if her son become a suicide bomber.
he makes antisemitic conspiratorial statements such as the israelis have a "a hold on America's wallet and balls doesn't make what you do right" and you just let him get away with that? don't let the rhetoric of the likes of linblahice blind you.
how the hell is that antisemitic? he's questioning their influence in regards to US foreign policy... he's not saying he hates them - or looks down on them. You're the one throwing out statistics to prove all palestinians deserve the treatment they're getting from the Israelis. Maybe you're anti-arab? while you criticize him for bashing you in the majority of his response...you did the exact same thing to him. at least their is some logic behind what he has to say.
what does he mean by israelis having a "a hold on America's wallet and balls doesn't make what you do right" ? perhaps that jews control america? perhaps? do you really need people to spell things out for you. sometimes like with the mad nazi scientist in dr strangelove, the truth leaks out.
and the statistics show its not a simple fringe group that supports bombings against the will of the majority. pointing out the fact that the vast majority of palestinians believe in collective punishment themselves, and how ironic it is that they complain so heartily about collective punishment when used upon them.
as for the bashing, i was refering to the pattern of him attacking me threads attacking in the manner of limbaugh, label and dismiss the strawman. he's been following me around like a puppy for quite a while. i've simply ignored it for the longest time, but now i just have to say it, he's been acting like an ass.
i'll just let your statement do the work for me.
Poor Oroo Oroo can't take the heat. I've not been following you around. You just happen to post something in many of the threads I do. I like how you make claims like how Israel was formed peacefully or say that the vast majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings without providing any proof. And when I give evidence on the contrary you just retreat because I hurt your feelings. Man up.
And yes, Israel has a lot of influence on the US, that is why AIPAC and many other pro-Isreal lobbys and PACs are so popular. That is why one of the world's wealthiest nations gets more aid from the US than all the other aid we give to outher countries combined. This is why many people who have taken a stand critical of Israels's policies have been black listed by pro-Israel associationes as anti-Semiites and prevented from running from office. Why do you bother posting on a subject you know nothing about?
And yes, Israel has a lot of influence on the US, that is why AIPAC and many other pro-Isreal lobbys and PACs are so popular. That is why one of the world's wealthiest nations gets more aid from the US than all the other aid we give to outher countries combined. This is why many people who have taken a stand critical of Israels's policies have been black listed by pro-Israel associationes as anti-Semiites and prevented from running from office. Why do you bother posting on a subject you know nothing about?
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
no proof? simple search on google was beyond you eh?
http://middleeastinfo.org/article3538.html
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-10/20/content_273601.htm
http://www.mediareviewnet.com/Majority%20of%20Palestinians%20Back%20Suicide%20Bombing.htm
http://www.dehai.org/archives/AW_news_archive/3870.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1004497/posts
http://www.dawn.com/2001/06/04/int2.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2072000/2072851.stm
http://ithaca.indymedia.org/media/text/00/00/07/06/
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/031019/325/ebjdl.html
http://pub208.ezboard.com/fsonsofsamhornfrm12.showMessage?topicID=688.topic
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/jun01/jmcc.htm
http://www.likud.nl/extr291.html
take the numbers however you want, and no matter what, the palestinians support violence. not just small violence against soldiers but 75% supported that attack on innocnent israelis in a restaurant, an attack that managed to kill 21 and wound who knows how many. that the majority show their support of one of the most grusome and effective attacks against civilians, it shows their support has no bounds. and the number of people that would have died fi it werent for israels advanced medical care..,.would have been disasterous.
the palestinians being the hipocrites they are have an 85% support of mutual cessasion of violence? well actually thats 85% for ceasefire, and only 50-55% would support the pa cracking down on violece even after cease fire has taken place. hah! where are the jewish suicide bombers killing civilians. they consider police raids against terrorists violence that compares to their indescriminant violence against civilians. the nazi's might as well have said they'd stop killing innocent jewish civilians if you stop killing our nazi soldiers who have gassed countless people to death.
only 4.4% strongly opposed the attack. low? you think?
55% support attacks against israel in general, violence pervades the culture.
89% support attacks against jewish settlers. thats far over a super majority for violence.
fact is, you always retreat and give no evidence to begin with.
Why do you bother posting on a subject you know nothing about?
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
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not to mention, 73% of palestinians support attacks against the usa http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=57019
more palestinian incitement to kill americans http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=367276
course this is nothing new considering their dancing in the streets over 9/11.
and other assorted ugliness. theres a boatload more you can find by yourself.
http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=357924
http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=57019more palestinian incitement to kill americans http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=367276
course this is nothing new considering their dancing in the streets over 9/11.
http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=369349
and other assorted ugliness. theres a boatload more you can find by yourself.
http://www.unitedjerusalem.org/index2.asp?id=357924
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Special Insert: Palestinian Hatred PALESTINIAN SPIRITUAL LEADERSHIP: "BLESSED IS HE WHO KILLS JEWS" (INN-ISRAEL NATIONAL NEWS) 07/19/01) Source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=6585 A7.ORG A7.ORG Articles-Index-Top Publishers-Index-Top
The Palestinian grudge against Israel is not just a political one, but a religious one as well. So says Director of Palestinian Media Watch Itamar Marcus in his recent report and at a recent oral presentation at Tel Aviv University's Jaffe Center for Strategic Studies. In his paper entitled "Islam's Mandatory War Against Jews and Israel," Marcus documents Islamic holy leaders declaring Jews to be "the eternal enemies of Allah," and the killing of Jews to be Allah's will.
Palestinian Media Watch monitors the Palestinian media and issues regular reports, which can be had by emailing .
"The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war for Allah in which compromise is heretical," Marcus explains. Religious leaders in the Palestinian Authority who lead Friday services in mosques continuously emphasize the following eight points:
* Jews are the enemy of Allah
* The killing of a Jew is a religious obligation
* All agreements with Israel are temporary in nature
* Islam is fighting a religious war against the Jews
* Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, but all of Islam is obligated to assist them
* All the of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is Islamic trust and any Muslim who relinquishes his land is damned to hell
* Allah will replace Muslims who shirk their duty to fight Israel
* The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty
Marcus notes a number of horrifying quotes straight from the mouths of Palestinian Authority religious leaders that make the above points, including the following:
?We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: "?The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them?'" - - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001
?The Jews are the Jews... They are all liars? They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah? it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them, kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them? The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere?? - - The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000
"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." - - Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001
?The Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs and with their annihilation.? - - Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La?afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001
**Quotes from PA religious leaders regarding territorial compromise:
?We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre?.we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.? [Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities.] - - Sheikh Ikrima Sabri - The Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine on Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001
?Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget [the currently Israeli cities of] Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time?? - - Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000
?All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized.? - - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000
?We exaggerate when we say ?peace?... what we are speaking about is ?Hudna?, a temporary ceasefire." -- Arab Knesset Member Abdel Maleh Dahamshe, Palestinian Television, 1 September 2000
**What they Teach in School
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Muslim to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine... Islam considers anyone who is killed while defending [the land] a martyr of the highest order...? - - Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 67-68, September 2000
"...Oh you who are Jews, if you think that you are favored of Allah, to the exclusion of others. Then long for death if you are truthful. But they will never long for it because of the [deeds] their hands have sent before... as for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ..." - - Reading the Koran, sixth grade PA textbook, p.23
By the time Itamar Marcus sat down at the conference, the attendees were horrified. Arutz-7's Ariela Dworetsky, who attended the conference, reported participants asking questions such as, "In light of these Palestinian goals and truths, how could we ever imagine sharing a lasting peace with them?" and, "With incitement like this, do we have to wonder why there are so many Palestinian volunteers ready to kill themselves in suicide attacks?"
The next speaker, Arab Knesset Member Dr. Ahmed Tibi, was expected to argue against the evidence of hatred and incitement that Marcus had just presented - but instead of refuting it on a logical level, Tibi appealed emotionally on behalf of the "poor Palestinian refugees who are being ruthlessly murdered by Israeli soldiers." However, Tibi soon discovered that after close to a year of post-Camp David violence and killing, there isn't much sympathy left for the Arabs even at a public forum in the bastion of the Israeli left - Tel Aviv University. Dr. Tibi was booed repeatedly from start to finish. (INN 07/19/01)
The Palestinian grudge against Israel is not just a political one, but a religious one as well. So says Director of Palestinian Media Watch Itamar Marcus in his recent report and at a recent oral presentation at Tel Aviv University's Jaffe Center for Strategic Studies. In his paper entitled "Islam's Mandatory War Against Jews and Israel," Marcus documents Islamic holy leaders declaring Jews to be "the eternal enemies of Allah," and the killing of Jews to be Allah's will.
Palestinian Media Watch monitors the Palestinian media and issues regular reports, which can be had by emailing .
"The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war for Allah in which compromise is heretical," Marcus explains. Religious leaders in the Palestinian Authority who lead Friday services in mosques continuously emphasize the following eight points:
* Jews are the enemy of Allah
* The killing of a Jew is a religious obligation
* All agreements with Israel are temporary in nature
* Islam is fighting a religious war against the Jews
* Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, but all of Islam is obligated to assist them
* All the of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is Islamic trust and any Muslim who relinquishes his land is damned to hell
* Allah will replace Muslims who shirk their duty to fight Israel
* The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty
Marcus notes a number of horrifying quotes straight from the mouths of Palestinian Authority religious leaders that make the above points, including the following:
?We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: "?The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them?'" - - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001
?The Jews are the Jews... They are all liars? They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah? it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them, kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them? The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere?? - - The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000
"Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." - - Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001
?The Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs and with their annihilation.? - - Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La?afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001
**Quotes from PA religious leaders regarding territorial compromise:
?We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre?.we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic.? [Note: Jaffa and Acre are Israeli cities.] - - Sheikh Ikrima Sabri - The Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine on Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001
?Even if agreements were signed [regarding] Gaza and the West Bank, we will not forget [the currently Israeli cities of] Haifa, Acre, Jaffa, the Galilee Triangle, and the Negev. It is only a question of time?? - - Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000
?All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized.? - - Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000
?We exaggerate when we say ?peace?... what we are speaking about is ?Hudna?, a temporary ceasefire." -- Arab Knesset Member Abdel Maleh Dahamshe, Palestinian Television, 1 September 2000
**What they Teach in School
"Patriotism in Islam: In Islam, it is not improper for a Muslim to love his homeland. To the contrary, Islam encourages this, and established its defense as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine... Islam considers anyone who is killed while defending [the land] a martyr of the highest order...? - - Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 67-68, September 2000
"...Oh you who are Jews, if you think that you are favored of Allah, to the exclusion of others. Then long for death if you are truthful. But they will never long for it because of the [deeds] their hands have sent before... as for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ..." - - Reading the Koran, sixth grade PA textbook, p.23
By the time Itamar Marcus sat down at the conference, the attendees were horrified. Arutz-7's Ariela Dworetsky, who attended the conference, reported participants asking questions such as, "In light of these Palestinian goals and truths, how could we ever imagine sharing a lasting peace with them?" and, "With incitement like this, do we have to wonder why there are so many Palestinian volunteers ready to kill themselves in suicide attacks?"
The next speaker, Arab Knesset Member Dr. Ahmed Tibi, was expected to argue against the evidence of hatred and incitement that Marcus had just presented - but instead of refuting it on a logical level, Tibi appealed emotionally on behalf of the "poor Palestinian refugees who are being ruthlessly murdered by Israeli soldiers." However, Tibi soon discovered that after close to a year of post-Camp David violence and killing, there isn't much sympathy left for the Arabs even at a public forum in the bastion of the Israeli left - Tel Aviv University. Dr. Tibi was booed repeatedly from start to finish. (INN 07/19/01)
Good god Ooro, you speak as if this conflict were one sided. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but last I heard Palestine was on the receiving end of daily gunship attacks into their neighborhoods. I suppose I could be wrong in this, perhaps all those kids chucking rocks were just saving up for a brand new Apache helicopter to lob rockets in the general direction of suspected Israeli military leaders.
Fact is, Palestinians strap bombs on their chests and slowly meander into heavily populated areas to blow Israelis up and Israelis launches missile attacks into equally populated areas of Palestinians. They?re both waging war through attrition, one party's method just happens to be a bit more expedient.
You might as well be betting on a cock fight, regardless of who wins the conflict is wrong and so is our participation in it.
Fact is, Palestinians strap bombs on their chests and slowly meander into heavily populated areas to blow Israelis up and Israelis launches missile attacks into equally populated areas of Palestinians. They?re both waging war through attrition, one party's method just happens to be a bit more expedient.
You might as well be betting on a cock fight, regardless of who wins the conflict is wrong and so is our participation in it.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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but your ignoring distinctions that cannot be ignored.
a suicide bomber walking into a crowd of civilians with the goal of killing and maiming as many innocent men women and children as possible is not the same as a missle strike on a house where a terrorist responsible for the death of countless civilians is hiding. esp if a convoy of heavily armed vehicles slowly trudging into the area through crowded and tangled streets to apprehend said suspects would face hoards of palestinian gunmen, bombs, mines, rockets etc ending up with even more innocents in the line of fire.
in general the idf goes out of its way to preserve the lives of civilians, even at the expense of its own. this cannot be said of the palestinians on any level.
if you don't see such distinctions then theres no difference between a school shooting where a teen goes crazy shooting up innocent people and an accidental police shooting by stray fire when trying to apprehend a suspect.
if you ignore all important distinctions whats the difference between genocide and normal war, after all in both cases people die. theres no difference right? ignoring fundamental differences to call things the same in a strained attempt to be objective or fair does no one good.
you might as well justify the actions of germany in ww2 this way. they were being oppressed, its inevtible that they would strike back. both sides killed people blah blah equal blah blah the same. all the blame is on the allies after ww1...blah blah.
and whats amazing is the double standard that applies to ideology in the middle east. if european countrys supported schools that had books demonizing jews and the west, inciting violence and hatred to the level allowed in the middle east there would be hell to pay. its almost racist. holding inferior people to inferior standards and seeing that as normal just as was done in the past.
a suicide bomber walking into a crowd of civilians with the goal of killing and maiming as many innocent men women and children as possible is not the same as a missle strike on a house where a terrorist responsible for the death of countless civilians is hiding. esp if a convoy of heavily armed vehicles slowly trudging into the area through crowded and tangled streets to apprehend said suspects would face hoards of palestinian gunmen, bombs, mines, rockets etc ending up with even more innocents in the line of fire.
in general the idf goes out of its way to preserve the lives of civilians, even at the expense of its own. this cannot be said of the palestinians on any level.
if you don't see such distinctions then theres no difference between a school shooting where a teen goes crazy shooting up innocent people and an accidental police shooting by stray fire when trying to apprehend a suspect.
if you ignore all important distinctions whats the difference between genocide and normal war, after all in both cases people die. theres no difference right? ignoring fundamental differences to call things the same in a strained attempt to be objective or fair does no one good.
you might as well justify the actions of germany in ww2 this way. they were being oppressed, its inevtible that they would strike back. both sides killed people blah blah equal blah blah the same. all the blame is on the allies after ww1...blah blah.
and whats amazing is the double standard that applies to ideology in the middle east. if european countrys supported schools that had books demonizing jews and the west, inciting violence and hatred to the level allowed in the middle east there would be hell to pay. its almost racist. holding inferior people to inferior standards and seeing that as normal just as was done in the past.
Whether or not one party has luxury of appearing more civilized in its brutality than the other, the fact remains that Israel needs to comprimise significant territory to the Palestinians. The war cannot stop until this occurs. Yet Israel stubbornly insists on fanning the flames of fanaticism, blowing hot embers all over the world and igniting more and more conflict. It's miopic, it's irresponsible, and they need to be coerced in the direction of diplomacy in much more ardent manner than anything our current administration would dare muster.
Well when you put it that I way I can't help but wonder what a little bit more diplomacy might've done to offset the reaction of the Germans. You use that comparison as if to illustrate the irrelevance of moderation and, yet, if it was exercised more in the manner in which post war Germany was reprimanded, they may not have been so desperate for dignity that they would flock to the callings of a well-organized mad man.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
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no, the example was to show that there are differences. even though the allies were over zealous in their persecution of german for its aggression in ww1, what germany did in response was not justifiable. if hitler had stopped at the rhineland and maybe austria, then it would have been fine, shaking off the shackles of oppression. but instead you know very well what he did, the mass genocide, the millions of civilians/soldiers that lost their lives because of his invasions. the wrongs of the allies did not justify the level of wrongs of the nazi's.
its as if you rear ended my car, got out and started to argue with me instead of staying calm. i then take out a gun and blow you away. whos to blame? were we really both the same? sure theres wrong on both sides, but reaction so excessive was not justifed on any level.
not to mention this apologist attitude towards terrorism doesn't help the palestinians in any way. it only legitimizes those that commit the terror, and those that support the terror, marginalizing any voices of reason that might exist within palestinian society. the moral equivalence arguements and moral ambiguity used to support whether directly or tacitly only undermine voices of reason and peace. those that seek only to appease and ignore the actions of the terrorists really aren't doing the palestinians any favours. they only hurt their cause.
its as if you rear ended my car, got out and started to argue with me instead of staying calm. i then take out a gun and blow you away. whos to blame? were we really both the same? sure theres wrong on both sides, but reaction so excessive was not justifed on any level.
not to mention this apologist attitude towards terrorism doesn't help the palestinians in any way. it only legitimizes those that commit the terror, and those that support the terror, marginalizing any voices of reason that might exist within palestinian society. the moral equivalence arguements and moral ambiguity used to support whether directly or tacitly only undermine voices of reason and peace. those that seek only to appease and ignore the actions of the terrorists really aren't doing the palestinians any favours. they only hurt their cause.
Slow down there "cool breeze," no one here is advocating the use of terrorism OR genocide. I know it makes you feel like your insights (or lack thereof) are somehow validated by framing my arguments as that of a terrorist loving anti-Semitic Frenchman but let's please stay to the topic at hand. I digress, Israel must compromise and the US should at the very least remain more neautral in this conflict if not outright insist that they just calm the hell down. They've got to give the wound time to clot, and obviously the Palestinians must do the same.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
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well actually the arab states have used the palestinians as their pawns all along. they are in large part responsible for fanning any flames, and well they fan the most flames with their financial and moral support of terrorism, calls to violence, and generally a culture of racist hatred. it has been their wag the dog diversion for decades. that so many practically ignore the hand of the arab states in the fate of the palestinians is irresponsible. could it be that they have oil? easier to pick on israel. look at the treatment of palestinian refugee camps in arab states, its shameful. you have to remember that the wars fought by the arabs were caused by the mere existence of israel, not some idea of palestinian oppression and a separate palestinian state. they denied israels right to exist at all, and many still do. the arab states have been held to a lower standard from a historical colonial perception of inferiority. the israelis seen as european are held to standards that should equally apply to the arab states to be fair. until then, the places remains the powderkeg it is.
Again, how could the results of giving the Palestinians their own sovergn territory be any worse than what is now occuring?
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