F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.... $300 billion down the drain

[Modelworks]

It wasn't anything classified. It is more media hype than anything. They use the same policies at the defense department that they used at Sandia . You go in to work and your id is confirmed, then you leave everything you came in with except clothes in a locker, no cell phones, pagers, or even a pencil and paper. You then go to the next corridor and checkpoint where your id is confirmed again. Next you go to the room where all the work is done that requires computers. The only thing you have in there are monitors, mouse, keyboard. You can't even touch the actual pc. The computers in there are networked among themselves and nothing external like the internet.

The only way you are getting classified data out is if you physically go in there and bust open a pc and grab the hard drives. All of which is in a area that is monitored 24/7 by soldiers in the actual room watching everything that takes place.

If you want to use the internet you have to go to a pc outside the classified area.

This news story is filler stuff for slow news day.

 

[ElFenix]

so did they get in through a hole in the OS or did some moron install kazaa on the computer?

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It wasn't anything classified. It is more media hype than anything. They use the same policies at the defense department that they used at Sandia . You go in to work and your id is confirmed, then you leave everything you came in with except clothes in a locker, no cell phones, pagers, or even a pencil and paper. You then go to the next corridor and checkpoint where your id is confirmed again. Next you go to the room where all the work is done that requires computers. The only thing you have in there are monitors, mouse, keyboard. You can't even touch the actual pc. The computers in there are networked among themselves and nothing external like the internet.

The only way you are getting classified data out is if you physically go in there and bust open a pc and grab the hard drives. All of which is in a area that is monitored 24/7 by soldiers in the actual room watching everything that takes place.

If you want to use the internet you have to go to a pc outside the classified area.

This news story is filler stuff for slow news day.

I have never worked for a defense contractor. I was curious as to how such a breach could have occured. At least it is good to know that most likely it was not top secret stuff getting breached. $300 billion is a lot to waste, but I like to think the U.S. still maintains technical superiority with our fighters.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Modelworks
It wasn't anything classified. It is more media hype than anything. They use the same policies at the defense department that they used at Sandia . You go in to work and your id is confirmed, then you leave everything you came in with except clothes in a locker, no cell phones, pagers, or even a pencil and paper. You then go to the next corridor and checkpoint where your id is confirmed again. Next you go to the room where all the work is done that requires computers. The only thing you have in there are monitors, mouse, keyboard. You can't even touch the actual pc. The computers in there are networked among themselves and nothing external like the internet.

The only way you are getting classified data out is if you physically go in there and bust open a pc and grab the hard drives. All of which is in a area that is monitored 24/7 by soldiers in the actual room watching everything that takes place.

If you want to use the internet you have to go to a pc outside the classified area.

This news story is filler stuff for slow news day.

I have never worked for a defense contractor. I was curious as to how such a breach could have occured. At least it is good to know that most likely it was not top secret stuff getting breached. $300 billion is a lot to waste, but I like to think the U.S. still maintains technical superiority with our fighters.

The country that has the best air superiority is going to win. It's not the solders (unless you had billions of them). It's all air combat these days. Technology always wins the wars and if we don't start getting with the program in advancing computer chips and tech... We lost a GREAT big steps since bush was president and China has almost caught up with us as we have been in limbo. Sad but... That's the way it goes. Dunno if we can keep the edge. I hope so but we got 8 years to play catch up.

We lack way behind in Engineering. Having high powered chips is just half the battle still need some brain power to write the code to keep the modern aircraft flying and weapons in check.

 

[Modelworks]

I think the only thing they got was general information. What was being designed, what would be needed to build it, what cost might be, who works on the project. All those things are usually not top secret. Stuff a janitor working there might hear. The media wants people to think its like some wargames movie where you can pick up a phone and dial in . I once asked what they did with the old hardware whenever an upgrade was done. The guy said, you know what we tested in Nevada during the 1950's don't you ? For a minute he had me going, then he said "just kidding, we shred them". I said, "the whole thing" and he said, yes, mouse , keyboard and all.

I already knew they shredded hard drives and melted down the shreds of metal since that is what the Navy did. But had no idea they took it to the extreme of entire pc.

Also the defense department loves money. They are probably making it to be more than it is. It is a great way to get spending to defend against cyber attacks, which is hard to justify unless you have something to show saying "See there is a threat"

I can't see how anyone could ever get information out over the network. Not unless they have figured out how to make electrons jump out the end of a cat6 cable, navigate through walls of concrete and find the destination, then make the jump back

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: rudder
Terabytes of data downloaded by unknown hackers.

So basically although this is a very maneuverable fighter... all electronic systems are worthless because now adversaries know how to defend against it.

Another reason why I am against H1B visas. I am sure somehwere in the design chain with all the defense contractors there could be the possibility of a breach. If it were me running the show and for that much money, I would have a completely physically isolated network anyway.

Yep It was def one of them thar foreigners.

 

[Craig234]

If anyone can get a copy of this, let's put a post up in the hardware forum and recruit a team to build one. We'll put the AT logo on the tail fin.

BTW, last I was told, it's standard operating policy for the military that classified info is not put onto internet-connected computers.

 

[cyclohexane]

wow, the op is completed off the rocker. How the hell does this relate to H1Bs?

 

[Atheus]

I remember something a while ago where the US were refusing to give avionics source code to the UK with the F35 parts - basically they were asking for more money I think. We probably just stole the code.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: cyclohexane
wow, the op is completed off the rocker. How the hell does this relate to H1Bs?

It's funny how people can so clearly recognize the logical flaws when it's an unpopular issue, but when the same and worse flaws are used for popular positions, that changes.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Apparently the breech was originated somewhere in China, where I'm sure people are paid to do exactly this.

Don't think for a minute we do not as well. I'm sure every developed country has its own digital army.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Hack the planet!

That movie rocks! :thumbsup:

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: rudder
Terabytes of data downloaded by unknown hackers.

So basically although this is a very maneuverable fighter... all electronic systems are worthless because now adversaries know how to defend against it.

Another reason why I am against H1B visas. I am sure somehwere in the design chain with all the defense contractors there could be the possibility of a breach. If it were me running the show and for that much money, I would have a completely physically isolated network anyway.

I'm very against H1-Bs in a lot of situations, but.....

having worked at Lockheed Martin, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[1jzpowr]

Originally posted by: ericlp

The country that has the best air superiority is going to win. It's not the solders (unless you had billions of them). It's all air combat these days. Technology always wins the wars and if we don't start getting with the program in advancing computer chips and tech... We lost a GREAT big steps since bush was president and China has almost caught up with us as we have been in limbo. Sad but... That's the way it goes. Dunno if we can keep the edge. I hope so but we got 8 years to play catch up.

We lack way behind in Engineering. Having high powered chips is just half the battle still need some brain power to write the code to keep the modern aircraft flying and weapons in check.

If you consider 1980's era weapons as almost catching up, then sure, we're screwed. The truth is China is far from caught up to us militarily. They are still 15-20 years behind us in military equipment and lack educated personell to operate their most advanced equipment (again, 1980's era equipment). They also lack any modern indigenous jet fighters of their own, its all borrowed technology from Russia which they only slightly improved upon. Their best fighter built from the ground up using their own tech is equivalent to our F-16A, a fighter designed in the 1960's.

The only way China is ever going to get anywhere near our level of military technology and sophistication is by hacking our systems, which is what they did in this case. They know this too, which is why they employ one of the largest cyber hacking branches which they use to probe US systems hundreds of times a day.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I wonder how much shit we're stealing from China via hacks on their systems.

 

[Looney]

Yep, $300B down the drain!

Christ you xenophobes are getting more moronic each year.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: rudder
I have never worked for a defense contractor. I was curious as to how such a breach could have occured. At least it is good to know that most likely it was not top secret stuff getting breached. $300 billion is a lot to waste, but I like to think the U.S. still maintains technical superiority with our fighters.

$300 billion is the capital cost for over 2,500 aircraft.

Yeah. It's a lot of money - easily double the initial projected cost. And it will cost 2X that over its service to operate and maintain. But look at it this way ....

It's only $33 billion a year for the next 30 years -

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I wonder how much shit we're stealing from China via hacks on their systems.

Does china have anything worth stealing?

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Afaik H1Bs are not allowed to work on defense projects. You either have to be natural born citizen, a naturalized citizen or Green Card holder.

Sure but that doesn't stop them from working on windows or 1 of the other hundreds of software applications running on the PC contain the sensitive information. A H1B could easily have added a back door into the program to steal technology.

Although my guess is that the data was stolen because of some idiot with kazaa.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I wonder how much shit we're stealing from China via hacks on their systems.

Does china have anything worth stealing?

IOU's for something like $700B.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Does china have anything worth stealing?

Based on the threads a while back about Chinese anti-ship missiles, some people seem to think that they are ahead of us in ballistic missile technology.:laugh:

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Afaik H1Bs are not allowed to work on defense projects.

Foreign nationals that normally cannot work on defense projects can work on them indirectly. There is still work they can do for the project where they are not given direct access to confidential data. We ran into this problem when one of my professors could not look at some data from NASA since he is not a citizen. I also know some (mainland) Chinese students (here only for the education) working on stuff for the US Army.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Afaik H1Bs are not allowed to work on defense projects. You either have to be natural born citizen, a naturalized citizen or Green Card holder.

Sure but that doesn't stop them from working on windows or 1 of the other hundreds of software applications running on the PC contain the sensitive information. A H1B could easily have added a back door into the program to steal technology.

Although my guess is that the data was stolen because of some idiot with kazaa.

Having seen how things work I would really like to know how they did attach to even the non classified network. Even the non classified pc are locked from doing any software install whatsoever. You don't get admin rights on those. The firewalls block practically everything. Even bandwidth is monitored so that if someone downloads or uploads more than someone else it throws up a red flag.

These places are very strict about the security. You get caught even trying to install software of any kind without permission and its your ass and your job. There is no warning not to do it again, or that you didn't know. I saw a woman brought to tears because she was trying to put her kids picture as her desktop. They charged her and fired her .

They don't play. One of the reasons I was glad to move on from there. It was creepy sometimes to work in areas where two soldiers stood by every door . They said they used soldiers instead of cameras because soldiers can hear, smell and sense things that no camera could.


Wireless signals do not work outside the building and things like cell phone signals do not penetrate the building so that angle is out.

I've been thinking about it since I heard the news item and really I can't see them doing this without inside help.

I was working on the prototyping of microprocessors into possible weapons systems. I can't imagine the security of areas like the actual weapons code.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: yllus
I don't know how H1Bs play into this. I also don't get why the F-35 is now useless. It's not like this is going to allow foreign powers to "hack" the planes in flight and cause them to crash a la the beginnings of Battlestar Galactica.

Not hacking... but if you know what type of electronic counter measures the F-35 will employ its not too hard to come up with something to get around those.

Or if you have detailed information on the composites that went into making it and detailed working of the exterior shape, you can find tune radars to see the aircraft sooner than normally would be the case.

LOL

Nice try. I'll give you credit for originality.

The radar signature is roughly that of a golf ball and what isn't absorbed is deflected, primarily away from the radar installation.

End result: By the time you know it's there, you're dead.

No, depending on how well it's designed. We (you and I) don't know.

Read up on how you can see B2 bombers with vlf waves....

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

No, depending on how well it's designed. We (you and I) don't know.

Read up on how you can see B2 bombers with vlf waves....

how would you detect a B2 with VLF? That doesn't make a lot of sense, and it doesn't seem like it would be very useful. You would only be able to tell that the B2 was somewhere within one wavelength, which is at best 60 odd miles.

 

[1jzpowr]

It's the JOINT Strike Fighter, is that $300 billion the cost that the US alone sank into it, or the total cost of the program shared by all members? I know the US is the largest financer, it just seems a bit high of a share for the US to pay when many countries are involved in it and would benifit from it.