F-16 pilot was ready to ram hijacked plane on 9/11

[actuarial]

Stop making excuses. You don't get a patriotic medal of honor for making excuses for our lack of preparedness. I love my country just as much as the rest but I'm not going to pat someone on the back for racing to the scene with no weapons. An icecream truck with no icecream is just a slow ass truck playing an annoying song.

That's not a very apt comparison.

They definitely had a weapon - the plane. That's the point. The choices were:
a) Send no planes immediately, send loaded planes when ready
b) Send a few planes that more than likely could only be used as projectiles, and then send loaded planes when ready.

They got to the area faster, increasing the chance that they'd stop further destruction. The hitch was that if they couldn't wait for the loaded planes, they'd have to sacrifice their life to save others.

So it's not patting someone on the back for racing to the scene with no weapons. It's patting someone on the back for racing to the scene with their life as the only weapon, instead of waiting for something safer and risking not getting there in time.

 

[OutHouse]

No, they're apparently using OutHouse's ATOT fairy dust.

You do realize that airliners have multiple engines right? One burst = one engine. That leaves 3 that can still fly the plane.

yea im sure the terrorist who was flying for the very first time in his life would be able to handle running on one engine. Many experience pilots have crashed due to losing a engine. it changes the flight dynamics, if you are not familiar on how to compensate you will crash and burn.

oh, where are the other two engines????

 

[randomrogue]

Why this fascination with shooting the engines? That can't possibly be the best way to take down a jumbo jet. Anyone know the protocol for downing one? Seems to me that if you know the plane is fully loaded you'd shoot the wings.

 

[OutHouse]

Why this fascination with shooting the engines? That can't possibly be the best way to take down a jumbo jet. Anyone know the protocol for downing one? Seems to me that if you know the plane is fully loaded you'd shoot the wings.

because the engine is a bigger target and when it explodes it takes out the wing.

 

[Fayd]

??? im sorry but 105 rounds is more than enough to take down a 737. 2-3 20mm in one engine would do it no problem.

a 737 can fly with one engine out.

 

[ViviTheMage]

snag the tail, and then eject, no reason to eject before.

 

[OutHouse]

a 737 can fly with one engine out.

sure with a EXPERIENCED pilot how knows how to compensate and change the flight attitude so the plane does not stall out.

 

[amdhunter]

Is this the Obama version of that chick that faked getting rescued a few years back under Bush? What was that chicks name?

America sure loves them some woman army stories.

 

[LTC8K6]

One problem is the confusing reporting of the media. We aren't sure if they had ammo, or not. The report seems to indicate adequate ammo to bring down 93. Yet the pilots are talking about ramming 93.

My guess is that the story is poorly written. The F-16 pilot is not going to ram if there are 105 20mm rounds available.

Then we have the description of the rounds as lead nosed practice rounds. Not sure what that means, but I assume it means they are just plain lead bullets and not AP or explosive rounds. But even they should be fine for an airliner.

So, the story is confusing as written.

 

[LTC8K6]

A 757 and 767 have two engines, not four.

Both can fly fine on one engine. Both can compensate automatically for single engine operation, iirc.

The sure fire way to take the jets down if you have limited ammo is to put a few rounds in each engine.

If you don't have ammo, you take out the vertical stabilizer by ramming. This will cause the plane to spiral in almost immediately.

The wings and wing boxes are pretty tough.

 

[lord_emperor]

Chances of success aside, why not TRY shooting first? It's a passenger jet not a B17.

 

[Rudee]

Her wrists are too thick.

 

[irishScott]

yea im sure the terrorist who was flying for the very first time in his life would be able to handle running on one engine. Many experience pilots have crashed due to losing a engine. it changes the flight dynamics, if you are not familiar on how to compensate you will crash and burn.

oh, where are the other two engines????

And the terrorist, who still has some control and unknown experience, either keeps flying (aren't there automated flight control systems to compensate for engine shutdowns?) or at worst angles the plane into the nearest civilian structure.

That's why, if you read the article, they'd go for the tail and cockpit. Disrupt control of the plane and control it's descent to minimize debris and potential damage.

What are your credentials anyway?

 

[OutHouse]

And the terrorist, who still has some control and unknown experience, either keeps flying or at worst angles the plane into the nearest civilian structure.

That's why, if you read the article, they'd go for the tail and cockpit. Disrupt control of the plane and control it's descent to minimize debris and potential damage.

What are your credentials anyway?

I used to be a private pilot. and in a former life I spent a LOT of time around F-16's and 15's and pretty familiar with the weapons systems and avionics.

 

[foghorn67]

This thread may hold the all-time record for highest percentage of moronic replies from wannabe know-it-alls.

Two thoroughly trained pilots, thrown into a unimaginable scenario, racing to stop a threat unlike any they have trained for. These experienced pilots, who know what can be done better than the rest of the people here combined, are ready to kill themselves to stop the threat, and here we have a bunch of people who are just certain that any number of other solutions would have been better.

Hubris at its finest.

Yeah. Pretty much sums it up.

 

[Blitzvogel]

If the fighter is equipped with HE ammunition, a half second burst could take out an entire airliner wing at it's root. With depleted uranium (non HE) rounds, the best thing to do would be to go for the cockpit.

As for why aircraft cannon fire so fast, it's so that they can put a shit load of lead on target in a short amount of time. The dogfights of jet aircraft are fast and furious, so the ability to get rounds on target even in a short time period are crucial. IIRC something like a MiG-21 passing 90 degrees offset at 500 KTs, 1000 ft in front of a M61 Vulcan equipped fighter can still be hit by four rounds across the side of it's fuselage.

 

[LTC8K6]

A 777 flew 3 hours and 12 minutes on one engine in 2003...

 

[LTC8K6]

If the fighter is equipped with HE ammunition, a half second burst could take out an entire airliner wing at it's root. With depleted uranium (non HE) rounds, the best thing to do would be to go for the cockpit.

As for why aircraft cannon fire so fast, it's so that they can put a shit load of lead on target in a short amount of time. The dogfights of jet aircraft are fast and furious, so the ability to get rounds on target even in a short time period are crucial. IIRC something like a MiG-21 passing 90 degrees offset at 500 KTs, 1000 ft in front of a M61 Vulcan equipped fighter can still be hit by four rounds across the side of it's fuselage.

As far as we can tell, HE or DU ammo was not available, but some sort of lead practice ammo, which is pretty much exactly like FMJ ammo we have for pistols.

That is, they had 105 rounds of ball ammo. Maybe.

EDIT: Must have been M55 TP ammo, which is a sort of hollow steel body with an aluminum nose and a copper band for the rifling.

 

[Blitzvogel]

An FMJ like ammo wouldn't have the same penetrating power as DU, but it's not like it's difficult the aeroshell of an airliner, and the FMJ would be likely to break up upon impact and wreak more havoc instead of just passing through like DU.

 

[nageov3t]

maybe I'm misreading the article, but did this lady actually "do" anything newsworthy?

or is it just newsworthy that she said she was ready to do something (when not actually faced with the situation and in abstract)?

 

[OutHouse]

maybe I'm misreading the article, but did this lady actually "do" anything newsworthy?

or is it just newsworthy that she said she was ready to do something (when not actually faced with the situation and in abstract)?

nope she did not. thats why i call bullshit on the whole story.

 

[OutHouse]

A 777 flew 3 hours and 12 minutes on one engine in 2003...

yea with a pilot that had a minimum of 6,000 flying hours in his log book.

 

[actuarial]

maybe I'm misreading the article, but did this lady actually "do" anything newsworthy?

or is it just newsworthy that she said she was ready to do something (when not actually faced with the situation and in abstract)?

You're reading it right.

But she did take the first step towards the thing she was willing to do (scrambling with an inadequately armed plane), and has a corroborator as to the intentions.

 

[LTC8K6]

An FMJ like ammo wouldn't have the same penetrating power as DU, but it's not like it's difficult the aeroshell of an airliner, and the FMJ would be likely to break up upon impact and wreak more havoc instead of just passing through like DU.

Yeah, I'd fire whatever was loaded before I rammed...

The news stories are just confusing as to what they had for ammo if any, and what they were going to do, if anything.

You could probably ram the vertical stabilizer and still eject and survive as well.

The idea would be to make the target fall out of the sky nearly instantly to have some control over where it lands, albeit not that much.

If it's headed toward a populated area, you obviously want it to crash before it makes it there.

You want to do whatever will cause the quickest descent.

IIRC, that would be removing the vertical stabilizer, or chopping off a wing, with a slight nod to the VS because I think it's easier to remove.

 

[LTC8K6]

yea with a pilot that had a minimum of 6,000 flying hours in his log book.

We want a guarantee of a quick crash. Earlier suggestions of taking out one engine offer no such guarantee. That's the point. It's entirely possible to shoot out one engine with no discernible effect.