[Extremetech] Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, AMD

[SiliconWars]

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...surps-power-from-developers-end-users-and-amd

Many predicted that Nvidia's answer to Mantle would be a dirty one.

 

[Jovec]

All this is are closed source libraries provided by Nvidia to developers. Developers are free to write their own libraries for effects for both Nvidia and AMD GPUs, just as AMD can provide their own. As long as Nvidia isn't explicitly preventing the use of developer and AMD created code in games where Nvidia provided code is also used, then this is a complete non-issue. I don't see AMD offering up Mantle source code to Nvidia anytime soon.

 

[SiliconWars]

All this is are closed source libraries provided by Nvidia to developers. Developers are free to write their own libraries for effects for both Nvidia and AMD GPUs, just as AMD can provide their own. As long as Nvidia isn't explicitly preventing the use of developer and AMD created code in games where Nvidia provided code is also used, then this is a complete non-issue. I don't see AMD offering up Mantle source code to Nvidia anytime soon.

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AMD attempted to provide Warner Bros. Montreal with code to improve Arkham Origins performance in tessellation, as well as to fix certain multi-GPU problems with the game. The studio turned down both.

 

[dguy6789]

It should come as no surprise that Nvidia supplied libraries make their cards look better than they are. That by itself doesn't indicate foul play.

The issue is if Nvidia has any involvement(cash compensation) in coercing the developer to use *only* Nvidia supplied libraries for a game.

 

[Genx87]

So let me get my head wrapped around this manufacured controversy. Nvidia goes through the trouble to create optimized libraries, a game developer chooses to use them, and Nvidia may have a performance advantage? How is the developer locked out of this exactly? They are free to use their own libraries. AMD is free to provide their own library. Sounds like a real cup o faux concern to me.

While GameWorks doesn’t technically lock vendors into Nvidia solutions, a developer that wanted to support both companies equally would have to work with AMD and Nvidia from the beginning of the development cycle to create a vendor-specific code path. It’s impossible for AMD to provide a quick after-launch fix.

Isnt the OP all about Mantle that requires vendor specific rendering paths?

 

[sontin]

So, nVidia is providing closed source libraries and it's bad?

AMD is providing a whole new closed API and this is good?

You can only love these hypocrities. :awe:

 

[SiliconWars]

Comments -

Joel Hruska • 2 hours ago
It might be tempting to link them, but this isn't about Mantle vs. Gameworks. A game that supports Mantle does not penalize DX11 on any other solution. Nvidia retains full control over their own DX11 performance and can optimize the title in all the usual ways.

Joel Hruska • 28 minutes ago
Here's what you're missing: If you write a game 'the normal way", partnering with AMD or NV means that one company has better, more optimized drivers ready for launch. Nothing prevents the other company from optimizing drivers post launch. So in the long run, games get optimized on both platforms.
Optimized through GameWorks, games are never optimized for AMD at all. That's a fundamental change from how we used to do things. Instead of working with a developer to add support for specific NV functions, Gameworks actively works against the implementation of any AMD-specific functions.
Nvidia can optimize their drivers. AMD can't. That's not an "Nvidia advantage" like PhysX, or TXAA, or G-Sync.

And on top of that we have a clear situation where once again, Ubisoft is not allowing AMD to optimize Nvidia's ridiculous levels of over-tessellation.

Be sure that this level of tessellation is slowing down Nvidia cards for no IQ benefit - it just happens to slow down the AMD cards more for the same no IQ benefit.

 

[sontin]

So,
the difference between Gameworks and Mantle is:
Gameworks run on AMD hardware - Oh, more clear: It runs on every DX hardware and i guess OpenGL, too.

Hm, looks like a win-win for everybody.

 

[blackened23]

So is nvidia holding a gun to the head of developers and telling them, use this or else, right. What a bunch of jerks, supply developers with tools to improve performance on their hardware? I'm sure AMD doesn't do anything similar. Definitely not Mantle. Nope. :whiste:

 

[BallaTheFeared]

sen·sa·tion·al·ism
senˈsāSHənlˌizəm/
noun
noun: sensationalism

1. (esp. in journalism) the use of exciting or shocking stories or language at the expense of accuracy, in order to provoke public interest or excitement.

 

[f1sherman]

More FUD from Joel Hruska:

AMD hopes to wreak Havok on physics with new partnership

Crimson Tide: AMD’s R9 290 kicks the legs out from under Nvidia – again

AMD’s Radeon R9 290 has a problem, but Nvidia’s smear attack is heavy-handed

Well, that was quick: AMD solves R9 290 throttling problem with a new driver

You be the judge if that's one obedient blog toyboy.

 

[SiliconWars]

So let me guess, open standards are out the window again and it's all fair in business?

 

[blackened23]

More FUD from Joel Hruska:

AMD hopes to wreak Havok on physics with new partnership

Crimson Tide: AMD’s R9 290 kicks the legs out from under Nvidia – again

AMD’s Radeon R9 290 has a problem, but Nvidia’s smear attack is heavy-handed

Well, that was quick: AMD solves R9 290 throttling problem with a new driver

You be the judge if that's one obedient blog toyboy.

^Dude sounds like a lunatic after browsing through those articles.

 

[Jovec]

Until it is proven that Nvidia is contractually restricting developers from accepting AMD-provided support when using Gameworks or other Nvidia developer programs, this is a non-issue.

There is nothing stopping a developer from using AMD-optimized code written by either AMD or the developer themselves. What they are stopping is AMD from leveraging Nvidia's source.

 

[SiliconWars]

^Dude sounds like a lunatic after browsing through those articles.

GeForce GTX 780 Ti: Nvidia strikes back, retaking the performance crown from AMD

Nvidia’s G-Sync promises better, faster monitors that will revolutionize PC gaming

Xbox One will not support AMD’s Mantle, and PS4 is also unlikely. Is Mantle DOA?

Nvidia launches the $250 GTX 760, a good video card at a fair price

Nvidia strikes back: GeForce GTX 650 Ti Boost slams into AMD’s HD 7790

Nvidia gave AMD the PS4 because console margins are terrible



Clearly a heavily biased journalist right there. :whiste:

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Clearly a heavily biased journalist right there. :whiste:

What does lunatic have to do with bias?

 

[DiogoDX]

No surprise at all.

 

[SiliconWars]

The point is clear - instead of dealing with the matter at hand (the contents of the article), some instead chose to attack the writer because of his supposed "amd bias".

Joel Hruska is a very highly respected tech writer for good reason.

 

[bystander36]

Comments -

And on top of that we have a clear situation where once again, Ubisoft is not allowing AMD to optimize Nvidia's ridiculous levels of over-tessellation.

Be sure that this level of tessellation is slowing down Nvidia cards for no IQ benefit - it just happens to slow down the AMD cards more for the same no IQ benefit.

That part I found interesting was they are showing ~150 FPS during these scenes. I believe at those FPS, it doesn't matter if they go to extremes to get a tiny bit more IQ, as you are well over your refresh rates, so you might as well do something with that unused power.

And as mentioned, AMD does have a handy slider to turn down tessellation in their drivers if you are having difficulties with it.

I also found it a bit funny how they have math issues with this:

When it comes to manipulating performance, a few percent here and there add up to a significant decline overall. In a game with four high-end DirectX 11 functions (ambient occlusion, tessellation, crepuscular rays, and soft shadowing), running the AMD code path just 2% more slowly than necessary in each area would impact total performance by about 8%.

Anyone with math skills would know that if you take 2% slower in every aspect of a game, the overall performance is 2% slower, not 8%.
2% * a + 2% * b + 2% * c = 2% * (a + b + c)

Anyways, I'm not sure how dirty you'd call this. I'm not sure it is any "dirtier" than Mantle. Both are code path optimized software for one brands hardware.

 

[sontin]

After 4 years it's AMD's fault that they cant design hardware which can handle the DX specification properly.

If they dont want to play on a even field, maybe they should design an own closed API only their hardware can use.

 

[frozentundra123456]

One company promotes an entire API that only works on their hardware and that is a great advance in gaming, while another company makes a closed set of libraries and it is a dirty trick?? OK..........must be some way to conceptualize that, although it so far eludes me.

 

[SiliconWars]

Anyways, I'm not sure how dirty you'd call this. I'm not sure it is any "dirtier" than Mantle. Both are code path optimized software for one brands hardware.

The difference is at the game level. Through these closed libraries and Ubisoft's unwillingness to allow AMD to optimize anyway, we have a situation where AMD can do nothing to the game, at all. Nvidia can still optimize any DX11 game they want, Mantle or not.

One company promotes an entire API that only works on their hardware and that is a great advance in gaming, while another company makes a closed set of libraries and it is a dirty trick?? OK..........must be some way to conceptualize that, although it so far eludes me.

Yes you know, DX11 that "industry standard" that most of you have been banging on about how it must be saved and Mantle must die because it's not open?

This "industry standard" is now, with this move, open to Nvidia only in the games which they bribe devs to hobble AMD cards.

That's how you conceptualise it.

 

[DiogoDX]

That part I found interesting was they are showing ~150 FPS during these scenes. I believe at those FPS, it doesn't matter if they go to extremes to get a tiny bit more IQ, as you are well over your refresh rates, so you might as well do something with that unused power.

And as mentioned, AMD does have a handy slider to turn down tessellation in their drivers if you are having difficulties with it.

I also found it a bit funny how they have math issues with this:
Anyone with math skills would know that if you take 2% slower in every aspect of a game, the overall performance is 2% slower, not 8%.
2% * a + 2% * b + 2% * c = 2% * (a + b + c)

Anyways, I'm not sure how dirty you'd call this. I'm not sure it is any "dirtier" than Mantle. Both are code path optimized software for one brands hardware.

150fps in a 290X. The majority of the market don't have high end hardware. This is like the people saying thah mantle draw calls don't matter for a i7 4770K.

 

[bystander36]

The difference is at the game level. Through these closed libraries and Ubisoft's unwillingness to allow AMD to optimize anyway, we have a situation where AMD can do nothing to the game, at all.

And Nvidia can't do anything to optimize, or use Mantle code.

Both are kind of in poor taste IMO. At this point, it is what it is. We just have to wait to see how it pans out.

 

[NTMBK]

One company promotes an entire API that only works on their hardware and that is a great advance in gaming, while another company makes a closed set of libraries and it is a dirty trick?? OK..........must be some way to conceptualize that, although it so far eludes me.

AMD have already said that Mantle could be supported on non-AMD GPUs, so long as they meet the minimum feature set. I hope that Mantle is launching as AMD only while they get it ironed out, and that they will allow NVidia and Intel to implement Mantle drivers in the future.