Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Stunt
Conjur...answer this one question...considering you brought up Kerry...this is right on topic.

Yes or No:
Did Kerry vote FOR the armour and $87billion package you mentioned in the OP?
Yes.
No he didn't...he voted against the $87 billion package that was passed, and the one you mentioned in the OP.
Thank you...Somebody around here can at least identify errors in logic and reasoning.
The only error is your faulty logic. You're trying to say Kerry never voted for the supplemental funding bill. He did. He voted FOR the version that the Propagandist was going to VETO:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100777,00.html
The following letter was sent to Congressional lawmakers by the White House to convey the Bush administration's views on the Iraq spending package being debated:

The Honorable C. W. Bill Young
Chairman
Committee on Appropriations
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515

Dear Mr. Chairman:

This letter provides the Administration's views on H.R. 3289 and S. 1689, the FY 2004 Emergency Supplemental for Iraq and Afghanistan Security and Reconstruction Bills, as passed by the House and by the Senate. The Administration applauds the House and Senate for passing the President's supplemental funding request to support our mission and our troops deployed for the War on Terrorism in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere.

The President's request reflects the urgent and essential requirements to secure Iraq's transition to self-government and to help create the conditions for economic growth and investment, which are critical to winning the war on terror. The supplemental request will also continue our efforts to help build an Afghanistan that is prosperous, democratic, and at peace.

The vast majority of the President's request goes to American troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan so they have the equipment, pay, and other resources they need to perform their mission. The Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Fund, less than one-quarter of the total size of the request, supports Iraqi efforts to provide for their own security, establish basic living standards, and create an environment for significant private investment. By working to establish Iraqi and Afghan nations that are free, prosperous, and at peace with their neighbors, we eliminate a key base of operations for terrorists and enhance the security of America and her citizens.

Given the critical need, the Administration strongly opposes the Senate provision that would convert a portion of this assistance to a loan mechanism. If this provision is not removed, the President's senior advisors would recommend that he veto the bill. Including a loan mechanism slows efforts to stabilize the region and to relieve pressure on our troops, raises questions about our commitment to building a democratic and self-governing Iraq, and impairs our ability to encourage other nations to provide badly needed assistance without saddling Iraq with additional debt. The sooner freedom and democracy take root in Iraq and Afghanistan, the sooner these countries will cease to be havens for terror groups and the safer America and the world will be.

Both the House and the Senate versions of the bill contain provisions that are not directly related to on-going military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere or relief and reconstruction activities. The Administration strongly opposes these provisions, including Senate provisions that would allocate an additional $1.3 billion for VA medical care and the provision that would expand benefits under the TRICARE program.

The Administration is also concerned that both the House and Senate versions of the bill underfund the President's request for Iraq Relief and Reconstruction by $1.7 billion and $1.9 billion, respectively. The Administration encourages the conferees to ensure funding is provided for high-priority items such as local governance and municipalities, maximum security prisons, the American Iraqi Enterprise Fund, and a Basrah pediatric hospital.

The Administration is also concerned that the House does not provide the $858 million requested for the Coalition Provisional Authority's Operating Expenses to the U.S. Army, Operation and Maintenance account as requested. The existing structure ensures that CPA can complete its mission efficiently.

The Administration is also concerned that both versions of the bill contain numerous burdensome and duplicative reporting requirements. The Administration appreciates Congress' concern with transparency and will work with Congress to ensure that the final bill establishes an appropriate reporting and accountability regime.

To avoid any conflict with the President's constitutional authorities, we believe section 304 of the Senate version of the bill should be amended to eliminate the requirement for 90 days advance notice to Congress for changes in command responsibility or permanent assignment of forces and should instead require notice as promptly as practicable. We also believe the last mtwo provisos under the heading "Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund," which relate to the content of a new constitution for Iraq, should be made clearly advisory.

The Administration urges the conferees to expeditiously send the President a bill that he can sign into law that provides needed funds for our military and urgent Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction efforts.

Sincerely,
Joshua B. Bolten
Director

Identical Letter Sent to The Honorable C. W. Bill Young, The Honorable David R. Obey, The Honorable Ted Stevens, and The Honorable Robert C. Byrd
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
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Conjur, Your link is broken and seems to be a reference to taxes.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Thomas provides temporary links. The text quoted is the amendment Kerry supported to convert some of the appropriations to loans and to help pay for the rest of it by repealing the tax cuts for the rich.

The 2nd article I posted above is from FOX News (I'm sure you'll find that satisfactory, your majesty?) showing that the White House was going to VETO the bill with that amendment in it.




Game. Set. Match.

buh-bye
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Whatever...you are obviously backtracking and digging yourself a hole...

Simple fact of the matter is; Kerry, the man you praise in the OP for supporting the armour in your article never actually voted for it.

Justifications why he did that are pointless as you are making him look like a puss, caving to the president while waving the veto in front of his face. That's more of an insult than voting for the war!
 

kongs

Senior member
May 5, 2005
317
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Just think of all the lives that would have been saved if the Democrats would have voted against the war.

Kerry voted FOR the war.

Yes that was when EVERYONE was being bombarded with all the patriotic war propaganda. Also, the democrats voted for getting Bin Laden, not for the control of Iraq.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Game. Set. Match?

Your flaws in reasoning right from the get-go are obvious.

I don't like FOX news...they tend to confuse voters rather than infrom, plus they have partisans leading the business...
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

Got you with the facts and now you're in serious backpedaling mode trying to cover your apologist arse.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: kongs
Originally posted by: Stunt
Just think of all the lives that would have been saved if the Democrats would have voted against the war.

Kerry voted FOR the war.
Yes that was when EVERYONE was being bombarded with all the patriotic war propaganda. Also, the democrats voted for getting Bin Laden, not for the control of Iraq.
So even through that patiotism, and war propaganda, Kerry managed to make some time in his busy election schedule to vote against the armour.

Makes sense...must be Bush's fault!
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
AH HA HA HA HA HA HA!!

Got you with the facts and now you're in serious backpedaling mode trying to cover your apologist arse.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA
Your cackling is just scary...
Yikes! :p
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
What issues am I backpedaling on conjur?

I said Kerry voted against the armour bill...and he did, how it happened is what you are waffling on.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
Pork killed his vote. He originally was for it then was against it. You don't know Kerry if you don't know that.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
What issues am I backpedaling on conjur?

I said Kerry voted against the armour bill...and he did, how it happened is what you are waffling on.

^troll

I think you left your crap all over this thread. Would you mind cleaning up before you moved on to your next throne?
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Haha...
You care to propose evidence that Kerry voted FOR the armour on these vehicles?

Remember, the article doesn't state Kerry, this is conjur's own little aside...which happens to be completely wrong.
But keep the fluffing coming...you don't have a leg to stand on...all the facts are quite clear.
 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Well that goes without saying that he voted against the version that passed, because Bush promised to veto the version he did vote for. Not much of an option if you're stuck between the bill you think is best that the president said he'd veto and a similar bill you don't think is right. Voting against it is all he could do. It's hardly "not supporting the troops" to vote against a bill in protest, since I'm sure it was a 'must pass' bill. Besides, even though it did pass, lot o help it brought :disgust:
The man who was to lead the people with a respectable track record as a Senator voted against his own reasoning for the sake of potential veto...

He's a winner...:roll:

Actually, he voted for his own reasoning (rolling back a pitance of the huge tax cuts to pay for the 87 billion instead of using imaginary money) , and voted against the 87 million giveaway, an obviously damaging political move, to keep his principal that of fiscal responsiblity in spending. So yes, I find that to be a very respectable move.
 

MicroChrome

Senior member
Mar 8, 2005
430
0
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
It's inexcusable they didn't get the armor they need.

Hey, tell that to your commander and chief... You know.... the f***ed up retard that you voted for...

 

ZeGermans

Banned
Dec 14, 2004
907
0
0
Originally posted by: MicroChrome
Originally posted by: ntdz
It's inexcusable they didn't get the armor they need.

Hey, tell that to your commander and chief... You know.... the f***ed up retard that you voted for...

That's hardly a helpful comment.
 

MicroChrome

Senior member
Mar 8, 2005
430
0
0
Wouldn't you think the commander and chief would KNOW about this problem and fix it? Oh yeah, I know I'm talking about bush... And some people can never see that he can be wrong or could be at fault... From Katrina on down. This administration is so inexcusable it's beyond belief..

Ya know in the military they tell you "Sh!t always flows down hill"... You know from the top brass to the pawns. Wouldn't you think bush (president of the united states) would have the means (information) to know what they have and what they don't have? He wanted this war... Asked for it many times. Now he can't even give the people that are fighting this war the proper tools to fight it?

He keeps talking about how he is going to keep US safe... How is he going to do that when he can't even keep the troops safe?

Hope that clears up any doubts you may have had about helpful comments.


 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: Stunt
What issues am I backpedaling on conjur?

I said Kerry voted against the armour bill...and he did, how it happened is what you are waffling on.

^troll

I think you left your crap all over this thread. Would you mind cleaning up before you moved on to your next throne?

So anyone challenging conjur's bizarre logic is somehow a troll?
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,519
595
126
There two questions we should be asking our Congressmen/women.

Where is the armor for our troops?

Where is all the money going?

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry did NOT vote FOR the war. NO ONE voted FOR the WAR. Get it? Got it? Good!

Now, please avoid your off-topic forays.

I'm curious - how did Bush manage to go to war without Congress' approval then?
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
I see the neocon apologists can't seem to ever address the OP. You neocons could care less about the troops. Murderers one in all.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
I see the neocon apologists can't seem to ever address the OP. You neocons could care less about the troops. Murderers one in all.

Did you break a finger when you typed the last line? Have to edit when your finger slid on the slobber?

:cookie:
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: Stunt
What issues am I backpedaling on conjur?

I said Kerry voted against the armour bill...and he did, how it happened is what you are waffling on.

^troll

I think you left your crap all over this thread. Would you mind cleaning up before you moved on to your next throne?
So anyone challenging conjur's bizarre logic is somehow a troll?
Conjur's logic is quite sound, and easy to understand for anyone making a sincere effort. There were two versions of the $87 Billion bill funding Bush's misadventure in Iraq. Both included body armor funding. The difference is that one of the bills was more fiscally responsible than the other. Kerry supported -- voted FOR -- the fiscally responsible version of the bill. Bush did NOT support the responsible version, and threatened to veto it.

It is no more honest to claim "Kerry voted against body armor" than it is to say "Bush threatened to veto body armor". Both statements are techincally true. Both statements are meaningless.

This whole Bush machine smear campaign bleating "Kerry voted against ..." is just another deception, a disturbingly successful attempt to slime Kerry and distract the sheeple from the fact that Bush is so fiscally reckless. That so many here continue to buy into this BS -- or at least continue to parrot it -- is pathetic.

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: conjur
Kerry did NOT vote FOR the war. NO ONE voted FOR the WAR. Get it? Got it? Good!

Now, please avoid your off-topic forays.
I'm curious - how did Bush manage to go to war without Congress' approval then?
We have never declared war on Iraq (but you know that).
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Stunt
Haha...
You care to propose evidence that Kerry voted FOR the armour on these vehicles?

Remember, the article doesn't state Kerry, this is conjur's own little aside...which happens to be completely wrong.
But keep the fluffing coming...you don't have a leg to stand on...all the facts are quite clear.
Yes, the facts are clear. You're on the wrong side of them. If you truly believe otherwise, please address my comment above.