Exploring ATI Image Quality Optimizations by Guru3D

[heflys]

What I need to know is, why are you drawing attention away from the huge thing on the road that isn't circled? And toward tiny text on a flapping waving banner? And some girders that actually look clearer and less blurred on the left side than the right? And, which is going to give you a headache when moving.

None of that answers why Nvidia's sign looks worse in comparison to AMD's, particularly if their AF/IQ is "superior." Can you explain that to me?

 

[Skurge]

What I need to know is, why are you drawing attention away from the huge thing on the road that isn't circled? And toward tiny text on a flapping waving banner? And some girders that actually look clearer and less blurred on the left side than the right? And, which is going to give you a headache when moving.

Wow, This is low even for you.


Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Moderator Idontcare

 

[Keysplayr]

None of that answers why Nvidia's sign looks worse in comparison to AMD's, particularly if their AF/IQ is "superior." Can you explain that to me?

The text on the banner looks blurry on Nvidia side and way back in the distance. The girders look blurry on the AMD side and way back in the distance.. The road on AMD side looks like crap and it's right in your face. 3Dgamer.org quotes right below this picture:

"In motion, the effect is even stronger and of course, particularly at such a uniform texture as shown above could be demonstrated." (Google translated from German to English).

Now, you tell me. In motion, would you be able to read the lettering on the trackmania banner from either side? No.
Would you be able to tell which girder is blurrier? No. Would you be able to see the blatant mipmap transistions and shimmering on the AMD side? Can I get a big, Affirmative? yes.

 

[Keysplayr]

Wow, This is low even for you.

Remember Skurge. Glass houses and stones and all that.

 

[heflys]

The text on the banner looks blurry on Nvidia side and way back in the distance. The girders look blurry on the AMD side and way back in the distance.. The road on AMD side looks like crap and it's right in your face. 3Dgamer.org quotes right below this picture:

"In motion, the effect is even stronger and of course, particularly at such a uniform texture as shown above could be demonstrated." (Google translated from German to English).

So basically, you're saying it's okay for Nvidia to have clear IQ issues, but not AMD, simply because theirs occurs more in the foreground? BTW, IMHO, that Trackmania sign is right in "your face," are you seriously telling me it isn't easy to discern the difference?

I noticed that before I noticed the issue with the road. Regardless, I doubt anything will change your stance.

 

[Keysplayr]

So basically, you're saying it's okay for Nvidia to have clear IQ issues, but not AMD, simply because theirs occurs more in the foreground? BTW, IMHO, that Trackmania sign is right in "your face," are you seriously telling me it isn't easy to discern the difference?

I noticed that before I noticed the issue with the road. Regardless, I doubt anything will change your stance.

Sure you did. You noticed that little eensy teensy sign and the spines in all the girders before you noticed the glaring mipmap transistions in the road. Here is my other leg, you want to pull that one to?

Going to get some sleep now. Do your best to tear me up, think up some new angles, and I'll address the attempts in the morning.
Night night.

 

[heflys]

Here is my other leg, you want to pull that one to?

Is that a genuine offer?

It's clear you're going to ignore the assumption that Nvidia themselves obviously have optimizations that adversely affect the IQ. No, you instead seem intent on debasing AMD's IQ. Even when provided evidence proving such, you ignore it and point out to the subjectively more glaring issue of the track, which does nothing to refute the argument that Nvidia has optimizations as well.

EDIT: I don't know how else to get this point across without sounding frustrated.

 

[Keysplayr]

Is that a genuine offer?

Ah, brave in your new account. I understand you don't care what happens to this one.

 

[Qbah]

Done with the one-on-one slapping? Good. Someone can address this?

I still don't understand how can this be called lowered IQ "in general", if nobody can notice a difference in a modern game? Yes, Trackmania has a clear difference. Trackmania is an old game (not to mention some other stuff in it looks better on AMD...). What was the other game? Half Life 2? Is there any difference in L4D/L4F2? Portal? Any other source games?

So... can someone enlighten me? How is that cheating? Is there a perceivable difference in IQ when running benchmarks? No. Any recent games? No. Speed increase? Yes. I don't think you can get a better definition of optimization than that.

 

[heflys]

Ah, brave in your new account. I understand you don't care what happens to this one.

I thought terse, though not insulting, discourse was acceptable here? We clearly have a disagreement on a particular issue.

 

[notty22]

Since some can't 'see' the IQ 'optimizations', the timing and motive of their introduction have no one troubled ?

 

[Skurge]

Ah, brave in your new account. I understand you don't care what happens to this one.

What is this?

 

[heflys]

Here, I've circled another discernible difference in the background. Mine is the fat circle. Look at the upper metal bar/roof (?)

 

[Aristotelian]

snip

Thanks for the comprehensive post, though I had already read those links as best I could given that German is not my native language (and the German translations done by Google aren't that great, to be frank). I look forward to the AlienBabelTech IQ comparison that should be coming soon, to put this issue to bed.

I'm all about maximizing IQ gains, but to support the conclusion that you're offering Keys, one needs to show that Nvidia's IQ is always better, and that is not the case to me (or others) as I view the situation now. My previous post was in reference specifically to the continual 'but the default settings are cheating' whining. I mean, we play games on PCs precisely because we can optimize and customize the settings as we see fit, right? That's one of the major reasons for me, in addition to the superior image quality.

I find it hilarious that such a meal is made about this IQ discrepancy but that the original 68XX review sites aren't being blamed for failing to notice the reduced image quality. Either a) they didn't notice it (and it takes a vast number of still shots to prove the point that nobody notices in action or b) they are paid off/AMD fanboys. So it's either incompetent or biased, on your view, Keys. I've mentioned this to you before, and you don't seem to want to take up that cause. Don't you want better reviews? Should we have to use google translate for a few German sites to get the real deal on IQ differences? I think not.

 

[Arkadrel]

Why? Both companies optimise in their drivers anyway, as long as the image quality doesn't go down its all good.

This issue seems more about fanboys worrying that their company might be at a disadvantage rather than a concern about image quality.

Epic post that is why we are hearing Nvidia guys screaming in threads.
If Guru3D couldnt notice the differnces without haveing to zoom way in on 2 pictures, they themselfs said its not noticeable in real life gameplay and then its not a cheat.

 

[Skurge]

Here, I've circled another discernible difference in the background. Mine is the fat circle. Look at the upper metal bar/roof (?)

nV are really cutting corners there huh.

 

[Arkadrel]

This had to be done! check out these 2 and tell me which is better looking and why:


CAN ANYONE REALLY SPOT A DIFFERNCE?
*check out these 2 pictures from gameplay and tell me where the optimisations for nvidia and amd show*



Nvidia default settings (on a 580):

AMD default settings (on a 6850):

 

[Will Robinson]

That Trackmania sign image problem seems to be the tip of the NVDA IQ problem iceberg.Now its been brought up its damn near a scandal.
Multiple threads across most tech websites internationally should be created and then nurtured to highlight what looks to be a ballooning PR fiasco for NVDA.
oh wait.....wasn't that tried recently by.....

 

[SirPauly]

It one looks at the grated texture, there is more banding or moire on the AMD product than nVidia and when moving should illustrate this more. Moving to higher quality should help but these kinds of textures are worse case examples, especially if they have a bit of specular on them. Adding super-sampled to these should help here.

 

[flopper]

This had to be done! check out these 2 and tell me which is better looking and why:


CAN ANYONE REALLY SPOT A DIFFERNCE?
*check out these 2 pictures from gameplay and tell me where the optimisations for nvidia and amd show*



Nvidia default settings (on a 580):



AMD default settings (on a 6850):

not really, and when ur have ppl shooting at you, then who cares about aa?
They put the image quality at Nvidia levels, so why are nvidia boys screaming?
gee

 

[Lonyo]

It one looks at the grated texture, there is more banding or moire on the AMD product than nVidia and when moving should illustrate this more. Moving to higher quality should help but these kinds of textures are worse case examples, especially if they have a bit of specular on them. Adding super-sampled to these should help here.

The NV textures look more blurred and lower quality.

 

[SirPauly]

not really, and when ur have ppl shooting at you, then who cares about aa?

Thankfully, many reviewers, consumers, gamers and IHV's do.

 

[railven]

So yet another thread and another article that just show that AMD did a damn good job with their optimization that it is only visible in super-zoomed bloomified screenshots?

Well I guess with all the console ports this might be an issue - god they love bloom.

Time to stop recommending nVidia to friends/family/customers :biggrin:

 

[Mistwalker]

I still strongly believe the change to ATI's default settings was overall a good decision, as the differences are clearly not noticeable or harming their relative image quality enough to make the performance boost not worth it. Enabling ASO will end up benefiting the vast majority of users' gaming experience IMO. Not being forthcoming about this change was a very bad decision, and review sites should have been made aware for objective testing.

The Nvidia camp really should have let this come to light and stopped there, leaving AMD to squirm. Dragging it into an image quality comparison they might not win even with ATI cards using ASO will only open them to potential embarrassment or worse, move the spotlight away from the dishonest methods that started the whole affair.

Here's hoping new Forceware releases enable ASO as well (and that nVidia actually announces the change proper).

 

[railven]

I still strongly believe the change to ATI's default settings was overall a good decision, as the differences are clearly not noticeable or harming their relative image quality enough to make the performance boost not worth it. Enabling ASO will end up benefiting the vast majority of users' gaming experience IMO. Not being forthcoming about this change was a very bad decision, and review sites should have been made aware for objective testing.

The Nvidia camp really should have let this come to light and stopped there, leaving AMD to squirm. Dragging it into an image quality comparison they might not win even with ATI cards using ASO will only open them to potential embarrassment or worse, move the spotlight away from the dishonest methods that started the whole affair.

Here's hoping new Forceware releases enable ASO as well (and that nVidia actually announces the change proper).

I'd agree. Long as it is an option that is switchable. Most people who own these things I'd wager never even open up the right control panel. So let them get the most speed from the get go.

Hey they can do it this way:
"We pointed out that AMD was giving their users increased performance at the cost of indistinguishable image quality hinderence and you all loved AMD for it, so we're doing it too now!!! TO THE EXTREME!!!"

The focus guys can flood forums with it and how nVidia is so awesome for doing it better than AMD. Haha.