Exploding IRS scandal.

[monovillage]

Issa leading a fair investigation?

Still refusing to attribute your quotes?

 

[bshole]

Mono.

Sorry about that. If you are really interested, copy a sentence from the articles and do a google search on it. The first link brought up will be my source.

 

[Fern]

Those current very rare cases involve whom, exactly?

The rest is just legalese to obfuscate the methods used to dodge taxes & exposure while using the money for political purposes. All of the Tea Party groups currently whining don't use their tax exempt contributions for political purposes? Really? What else do they do with it, pray tell?

Feed the hungry? Shelter the homeless?

501 (c)(4)'s are allowed to spend as much as they want for 'political purposes', they are just limited with regard to political campaigns.

Fern

 

[monovillage]

Mono.

Sorry about that. If you are really interested, copy a sentence from the articles and do a google search on it. The first link brought up will be my source.

I usually find that when someone refuses to attribute quotes that there is a very good reason they don't do it.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

I usually find that when someone refuses to attribute quotes that there is a very good reason they don't do it.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09/24/issa-wins-most-corrupt-award-from-crew/

The article about the CREW award is written by the left wing site Addicting Info. CREW is a left wing watchdog organization, funded by left-wing organizations and foundations, who dishonestly brands themselves as "non-partisan". Nothing to see here of any real value imo.

 

[Fern]

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts now that a Republican has admitted his involvement in the scandal.

Elizabeth Hofacre and Gary Muthert are the 2 lower level IRS agents in Cinncy who the IRS and the WH said were repsonsible for this and called them "rogue agents".

Point 1 - the IRS and WH have already lied to us about this because we now know the whole "couple of rogue agents" thing is BS.

Now we have some unnamed manager who claims to be a "conservative Republican" who claims responsibility. His story is completely different and contradicts the 2 agents. The manager is also in Cinncy. Look at the dates cited below and you can see that the IRS office in Washington DC was involved from the start.

Point 2 - Now why should we just ignore other IRS agent testimony and rush to dismiss this on the basis of one manager's unverified claims?

Staffers from two House committees interviewed Hofacre and another IRS employee, Gary Muthert, as they are working to get to the bottom of what happened at the IRS. NBC News was allowed to view transcripts of the first two interviews.

Becky Gerritson of the Wetumpka Tea Party describes her experience with the IRS when applying to tax exempt status.

Muthert was charged with identifying the groups, while Hofacre reviewed the cases and drafted the questionnaires.

Neither is sure exactly who ordered them to begin their reviews.

What the two do say: They were both just trying to do the jobs their Cincinnati managers told them to do, and somehow, the IRS headquarters in Washington was involved.

In Hofacre's case, it was very direct. She was assigned to draft questions for the identified groups to answer – a task she performed from April until October of 2010. All along, IRS Washington-based lawyer and tax specialist Carter Hull was helping. He sent her draft letters with suggested questions. She used them as a model, making her own edits and then sending them back to him.

"I was essentially a front person, because I had no autonomy or no authority to act on them without Carter Hull's influence or input," Hofacre told congressional investigators.

The wide-ranging questions probed the groups' activities. At one point, according to Hofacre's account, one of Hull's superiors, Steve Grodnitzky, asked that a question about the groups' contracts be broadened, to ask about contracts they might sign in the future, not just the ones already in place.

Broadly, Hofacre's account contradicts multiple senior IRS officials who have insisted to Congress that employees in the Cincinnati office were responsible for the targeting.

...the sources of the directives remain murky. Muthert's boss in Cincinnati told him to start searching for "tea party" groups starting in March of 2010.

"He told me that Washington, D.C. wanted some cases," Muthert explained to investigators.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...irs-bureaucratic-finger-pointing-emerges?lite

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Are conservatives being audited more now? I must have missed that new scandal.

Yeah, you missed it.

The claims are out there, people testified in front of Congress about it and others have appeared on TV or news articles.

In any case, this topic will explored in both the Congressional investigations and the pending lawsuit(s).

Fern

 

[dank69]

Nah. The press will rally behind the Democrats.

Try reading his post you dishonest piece of garbage.



He did not say "all mainstream media." as you claim.

Read the thread before you condescend me.

 

[Fern]

Not the question. Vague allegations were made. I asked for verifiable specifics. None have been offered.

It may or may not be true, but w/o specifics, it's just FUD.

Well, unless you worship at the altar of Issa...

If you're speaking of me, no, you didn't ask for any specifics. You merely tried to dismiss issue by claiming "audits happen all the time".

Specifics aren't hard to find:

This woman, Catherine Engelbrecht, filed application for 2 tax exempt orgs in July 2010: King Street Patriots” ( 501 (c)(4)) and “True the Vote” (501 (c)(3). (Note: another article indictaes one of those filed in 2009.)

Catherine’s life has changed dramatically since submitting those applications. The organization has been questioned by the FBI on numerous occasions; she has had her personal tax returns audited by the IRS; and has also had her small manufacturing business tax returns audited by the IRS. In addition, her business has been subjected to two unscheduled audits by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, and Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and has undergone another unscheduled business audit by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...-catherine-engelbrecht-and-her-organizations/

While the link is to Forbes, you can find many others, just google "IRS tax exempt Catherine Engelbrecht". She testified in front of Congress; this story is not obscure by any means.

Another, while it involves the IRS is otherwise unrelated to the (c)(4) issue:

Mr. VanderSloot is the Obama target who in 2011 made a sizable donation to a group supporting Mitt Romney. In April 2012, an Obama campaign website named and slurred eight Romney donors. It tarred Mr. VanderSloot as a "wealthy individual" with a "less-than-reputable record." Other donors were described as having been "on the wrong side of the law."

This was the Obama version of the phone call—put out to every government investigator (and liberal activist) in the land.

Twelve days later, a man working for a political opposition-research firm called an Idaho courthouse for Mr. VanderSloot's divorce records. In June, the IRS informed Mr. VanderSloot and his wife of an audit of two years of their taxes. In July, the Department of Labor informed him of an audit of the guest workers on his Idaho cattle ranch. In September, the IRS informed him of a second audit, of one of his businesses. Mr. VanderSloot, who had never been audited before, was subject to three in the four months after Mr. Obama teed him up for such scrutiny

The last of these audits was only concluded in recent weeks. Not one resulted in a fine or penalty. But Mr. VanderSloot has been waiting more than 20 months for a sizable refund and estimates his legal bills are $80,000. That figure doesn't account for what the president's vilification has done to his business and reputation

He's been in front of the cameras too.

I heard additional groups/people making these claims at the congressional hearings, but I've googled enough.

Fern

 

[dank69]

Elizabeth Hofacre and Gary Muthert are the 2 lower level IRS agents in Cinncy who the IRS and the WH said they were repsonsible for this and called them "rogue agents".

Point 1 - the IRS and WH have already lied to us about this because we now know tyhe whole "couple of rogue agents" thing is BS.

Now we have some unnamed manager who claims to be a "conservative Republican" who claims responsibility. His story is completely different and contradicts the 2 agents. The manager is also in Cinncy. Look at the dates cited below and you can see that the IRS office in Washington DC was involved from the start.

Point 2 - Now why should we just ignore other IRS agent testimony and rush to dismiss this on the basis of one manager's unverified claims?



http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...irs-bureaucratic-finger-pointing-emerges?lite

Fern

It seems to me that we have a Republican saying that he was highly involved in these incidents. If this is true, it seems to blow a hole in the theory that this whole thing was a scheme devised and carried out by Democrats (Obama).

I just want to be clear about what your theory is. Is it that this man is not a Republican? Is it that he is indeed a Republican but a secret Democrat plant in the GOP? Is it that he is a Republican but is claiming to be involved when he actually wasn't? Please, let me know exactly what kind of shennanigans you think we are witnessing.

 

[Schmide]

(snip)

Catherine Engelbrecht

(snip)

Fern

This woman?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/10/rep_elijah_cummings_launches_true_the_vote_investigation.html

The voter suppressionist???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pnbUGr7RI

This is the bullshit on this. People go way over the edge of the law then claim conspiracy when they're caught.

 

[Fern]

It seems to me that we have a Republican saying that he was highly involved in these incidents. If this is true, it seems to blow a hole in the theory that this whole thing was a scheme devised and carried out by Democrats (Obama).

First thing is not to get ahead of the facts. That means people should stop with the 'Obama did this' stuff. Let it play out.

Secondly, my point was why should this one manager, whom we haven't yet heard from or seen the transcripts, be automatically given priority over the contradictory testimony of the two agents? In an investigation when parties giving differing stories you work to verify, not just choose the one you like best.

The IRS Washington DC attorney, Carter Hull, was involved from the beginning. How did he get involved? Perhaps he's the 'top dog' in the Tech Group in DC and can do what he wants, if not then his supervisor has to approve his time on this etc. What's the story there?

There is a lot of stuff to be learned.

I just want to be clear about what your theory is. Is it that this man is not a Republican? Is it that he is indeed a Republican but a secret Democrat plant in the GOP? Is it that he is a Republican but is claiming to be involved when he actually wasn't? Please, let me know exactly what kind of shennanigans you think we are witnessing.

I would think it rather clear: We have conflicting accounts from different people. Let's get the discrepancies resolved.

This guy/manager doesn't sound like the top person in the determiniations unit in Cinncy. I doubt he can create a rogue program and utilize resources like tech in DC without permission etc.

Fern

 

[Fern]

This woman?

http://colorlines.com/archives/2012/10/rep_elijah_cummings_launches_true_the_vote_investigation.html

The voter suppressionist???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pnbUGr7RI

This is the bullshit on this. People go way over the edge of the law then claim conspiracy when they're caught.

So charges have been filed?

Um, no.

In any case that would be a matter for the DoJ, not the EPA, BATF, IRS, FBI and OSHA. Or do you support blugeoning political opponents with government agencies instead of investigating and prosecuting as normal?

Fern

 

[Schmide]

So charges have been filed?

Um, no.

In any case that would be a matter for the DoJ, not the EPA, BATF, IRS, FBI and OSHA. Or do you support blugeoning political opponents with government agencies instead of investigating and prosecuting as normal?

Fern

I'm talking the tax law on 501.c3, which she applied for, charity status which precludes any electoral intervention.

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/05/12114/true-vote-victim-voter-vigilante-group-says-irs-targeted-its-verify-recall-effort

 

[werepossum]

Elizabeth Hofacre and Gary Muthert are the 2 lower level IRS agents in Cinncy who the IRS and the WH said they were repsonsible for this and called them "rogue agents".

Point 1 - the IRS and WH have already lied to us about this because we now know tyhe whole "couple of rogue agents" thing is BS.

Now we have some unnamed manager who claims to be a "conservative Republican" who claims responsibility. His story is completely different and contradicts the 2 agents. The manager is also in Cinncy. Look at the dates cited below and you can see that the IRS office in Washington DC was involved from the start.

Point 2 - Now why should we just ignore other IRS agent testimony and rush to dismiss this on the basis of one manager's unverified claims?



http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...irs-bureaucratic-finger-pointing-emerges?lite

Fern

If you're speaking of me, no, you didn't ask for any specifics. You merely tried to dismiss issue by claiming "audits happen all the time".

Specifics aren't hard to find:

This woman, Catherine Engelbrecht, filed application for 2 tax exempt orgs in July 2010: King Street Patriots” ( 501 (c)(4)) and “True the Vote” (501 (c)(3). (Note: another article indictaes one of those filed in 2009.)

Catherine’s life has changed dramatically since submitting those applications. The organization has been questioned by the FBI on numerous occasions; she has had her personal tax returns audited by the IRS; and has also had her small manufacturing business tax returns audited by the IRS. In addition, her business has been subjected to two unscheduled audits by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, and Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and has undergone another unscheduled business audit by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybe...-catherine-engelbrecht-and-her-organizations/

While the link is to Forbes, you can find many others, just google "IRS tax exempt Catherine Engelbrecht". She testified in front of Congress; this story is not obscure by any means.

Another, while it involves the IRS is otherwise unrelated to the (c)(4) issue:



He's been in front of the cameras too.

I heard additional groups/people making these claims at the congressional hearings, but I've googled enough.

Fern

First thing is not to get ahead of the facts. That means people should stop with the 'Obama did this' stuff. Let it play out.

Secondly, my point was why should this one manager, whom we haven't yet heard from or seen the transcripts, be automatically given priority over the contradictory testimony of the two agents? In an investigation when parties giving differing stories you work to verify, not just choose the one like best.

The IRS Washington DC attorney, Carter Hull, was involved from the beginning. How did he get involved? Perhaps he's the 'top dog' in the Tech Group in DC and can do what he wants, if not then his supervisor has to approve his time this etc. What's the story there?

There is a lot of stuff to be learned.



I would think it rather clear: We have conflicting accounts from different people. Let's get the discrepancies resolved.

This guy/manager doesn't sound like the top person in the determiniations unit in Cinncy. I doubt he can create a rogue program and utilize resources like tech in DC without permission etc.

Fern

Three excellent posts, thanks. This is why I doubt President Obama was involved. In his initial attack on big money conservative donors, he established the direction he wanted to go, and the IRS went there, treating these individuals as if they were ""on the wrong side of the law" as President Obama lied. Having gotten the benefit of the IRS handicapping conservative groups, why would he risk personal involvement?

It's amusing to see the administration's story evolve though, to the accompaniment of proggies everywhere squealing "There, that's what happened, now stop investigating!" with each new explanation. "Nothing happened." "Well, nothing bad happened." "Okay, maybe something bad happened, but purely by accident." "Perhaps it wasn't be accident, but it was just these two low level rogue agents." "Okay, maybe it wasn't just two low level rogue agents, but the whole thing was orchestrated by an anonymous conservative Republican IRS manager." It this rate we can't be far from blaming space aliens or the Pope. The Bad Piggies were discriminating against conservative groups, but Obama's Angry Birds swept in and saved the day?

Five will get you ten that President Obama appoints or nominates Carter Hull to a position from which he cannot be subpoenaed though.

 

[Fern]

I'm talking the tax law on 501.c3, which she applied for, charity status which precludes any electoral intervention.

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/05/12114/true-vote-victim-voter-vigilante-group-says-irs-targeted-its-verify-recall-effort

While I don't believe that effors to clean up and verify voter rolls qualifies as "electoral intervention" the important point would be that we have established means for the IRS to audit such alleged behavior. These establsihed means do NOT include audits etc by the FBI, EPA, OSHA and the BATF.

There is a EO complaince group in the IRS (primarily located in Cinny with other offices participating IIRC) that exist for this specific purpose: Audit EO's to ensure compliance.

Fern

 

[werepossum]

While I don't believe that effors to clean up and verify voter rolls qualifies as "electoral intervention" the important point would be that we have established means for the IRS to audit such alleged behavior. These establsihed means do NOT include audits etc by the FBI, EPA, OSHA and the BATF.

There is a EO complaince group in the IRS (primarily located in Cinny with other offices participating IIRC) that exist for this specific purpose: Audit EO's to ensure compliance.

Fern

The Baby ACORNs which did voter registration were also organized as 501(c)(3) corps if I recall correctly. Donations are therefore deductible, and neither voter registration nor voter verification is inherently partisan.

 

[Jhhnn]

If you were going to get audited by the IRS and otherwise harassed by government agencies and vilified by the liberal media, wouldn't you rather donate anonymously to an organization?

If you lived under a cloud of paranoid delusion, you'd think that way.

If you wanted to conceal the origins of Tea Party money, likely a few Billionaires, you'd pander to that sentiment.

Anybody else notice how Fern walked away when I asked for specifics about such supposed happenings?

I have to apologize to Fern- I found the post about Englebrecht. Researching now.

 

[Jhhnn]

Englebrecht? Nice story, bro.

She starts out with second hand accounts of the Right's fave boogeyman, "voter fraud", then misrepresents her group's efforts wrt tax status. They didn't file for 501c(4) status, but rather 501c(3) status, a whole different animal, very much forbidden to engage in politics. Then she whines about not being able to get the really big anonymous money...

Audited by the IRS? Happens all the time, but the usual suspects see it as conspiracy, of course. The FBI questioned her about a possibly dangerous individual who attended their rallies? The Horror! They called back to see if anything new had developed wrt that person? Double Horror! They're licensed to produce gun parts & the BATF showed up? OMFG! Conspiracy!

Here's pieces of the other side of the story that tend to contradict the whole persecution complex-

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/05...up-says-irs-targeted-its-verify-recall-effort

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-richie/true-the-vote-fudges-numb_b_2785093.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-ballot-cops/309085/

There's more, of course, a lot more, but the people who need to read it won't, because they believe what they want to believe.

 

[bshole]

You see, who funds the message DOES matter at least to conservative analyst Doc Savage Guy. Looks like we have a bit of dispute between conservatives on this forum. I myself think the source matters greatly so I am in agreement with Doc.

Doc Savage Guy:

The article about the CREW award is written by the left wing site Addicting Info. CREW is a left wing watchdog organization, funded by left-wing organizations and foundations, who dishonestly brands themselves as "non-partisan". Nothing to see here of any real value imo.

Werepossum:

I'd argue the opposite, that I can make a more reasoned analysis of a message if I bring no preconceptions about its framers.

PokerGuy:

No, who paid for the message is not necessarily relevant. Evaluate the message itself and make a determination of it's merits. Sometimes you can use the funding behind the message to quickly dismiss the message or take it with a grain of salt, but in reality you should evaluate the message and react accordingly. Even if the message is paid for by the Chinese government, that doesn't mean it's not true, it just means it's very likely a lie.

 

[monovillage]

You see, who funds the message DOES matter at least to conservative analyst Doc Savage Guy. Looks like we have a bit of dispute between conservatives on this forum. I myself think the source matters greatly so I am in agreement with Doc.

Unlike the Democrat authoritarians left like yourself, jhhnn and eskimo there are many, many conservatives that disagree on different issues. You are the clowns marching in lockstep, not the Republicans or conservatives.

As an example where do your views differ from the Democratic party?

 

[ivwshane]

Yeah, you missed it.

The claims are out there, people testified in front of Congress about it and others have appeared on TV or news articles.

In any case, this topic will explored in both the Congressional investigations and the pending lawsuit(s).

Fern

So claims of being audited now means more conservatives were audited? Are you talking about individual conservatives or conservative groups?

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Anybody else notice how Fern walked away when I asked for specifics about such supposed happenings?

I haven't walked away from anything. You keep making bogus claims - e.g., like this "I asked for verifiable specifics. None have been offered." when you did you did no such thing.

Hahaha, it's here in print.

In addition, you've been provided specifics.

Fern

 

[Fern]

So claims of being audited now means more conservatives were audited? Are you talking about individual conservatives or conservative groups?

Seriously?

What is there about a 501 (c)(4) etc. that isn't a "group"?

How are the individual who apply for them etc. not "individual conservatives"?

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

Seriously?

What is there about a 501 (c)(4) etc. that isn't a "group"?

How are the individual who apply for them etc. not "individual conservatives"?

Fern

So you think that based on testimony from groups that have been audited that equals proof conservative groups have been audited more! I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but let's say you are right, do you think the fact that there were triple the amount of conservative groups applying would affect that?

Exactly what are you trying to prove?