Explain to me why it is so difficult/expensive to have different blends of gasoline.

[techs]

Gas companies already add a certain amount of additives to gasoline. And they all seem to make a big deal how great their particular additives are (Drive your engine clean, etc).
They also make two or three different blends, regular, super, etc.
Why is it so difficult to put additives in for different seasons? And different regions?
Seems you just add another pipe and pump in what you need depending on where the gas truck will be delivering to.
Is the additive itself so expensive? Or is it in short supply?
Seems the most efficient fuel deliver system in the world shouldn't break down over an ounce per gallon of additive.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: techs
Gas companies already add a certain amount of additives to gasoline. And they all seem to make a big deal how great their particular additives are (Drive your engine clean, etc).
They also make two or three different blends, regular, super, etc.
Why is it so difficult to put additives in for different seasons? And different regions?
Seems you just add another pipe and pump in what you need depending on where the gas truck will be delivering to.
Is the additive itself so expensive? Or is it in short supply?
Seems the most efficient fuel deliver system in the world shouldn't break down over an ounce per gallon of additive.

Originally posted by: shrumpage
adopt a uniform formula.

Can anyone explain why there is a different formula to begin with???

Do we have different engines for different areas of the Country? 😕

You're asking a similar question but have mixed data.

The three "levels", typically 87 89 and 91 Octane is a performance ratio for the engines themselves.

Some engines (mostly for cars the rich drive) such as Jaguar, Lexus etc will ping and run like crap on low octane fuel. Mostt engines for the rest of us poor they make the engines to run OK on 87 Octane.

 

[TheSlamma]

Yes, the addative itself is more expensive, (especially after leaded gas went away)

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: techs
Gas companies already add a certain amount of additives to gasoline. And they all seem to make a big deal how great their particular additives are (Drive your engine clean, etc).
They also make two or three different blends, regular, super, etc.
Why is it so difficult to put additives in for different seasons? And different regions?
Seems you just add another pipe and pump in what you need depending on where the gas truck will be delivering to.
Is the additive itself so expensive? Or is it in short supply?
Seems the most efficient fuel deliver system in the world shouldn't break down over an ounce per gallon of additive.

Originally posted by: shrumpage
adopt a uniform formula.

Can anyone explain why there is a different formula to begin with???

Do we have different engines for different areas of the Country? 😕

You're asking a similar question but have mixed data.

The three "levels", typically 87 89 and 91 Octane is a performance ratio for the engines themselves.

Some engines (mostly for cars the rich drive) such as Jaguar, Lexus etc will ping and run like crap on low octane fuel. Mostt engines for the rest of us poor they make the engines to run OK on 87 Octane.

Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: techs
Gas companies already add a certain amount of additives to gasoline. And they all seem to make a big deal how great their particular additives are (Drive your engine clean, etc).
They also make two or three different blends, regular, super, etc.
Why is it so difficult to put additives in for different seasons? And different regions?
Seems you just add another pipe and pump in what you need depending on where the gas truck will be delivering to.
Is the additive itself so expensive? Or is it in short supply?
Seems the most efficient fuel deliver system in the world shouldn't break down over an ounce per gallon of additive.

I dont think it is so much the additive, but the change of process and delivery.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Can anyone explain why there is a different formula to begin with???

Do we have different engines for different areas of the Country? 😕

You're asking a similar question but have mixed data.

The three "levels", typically 87 89 and 91 Octane is a performance ratio for the engines themselves.

Some engines (mostly for cars the rich drive) such as Jaguar, Lexus etc will ping and run like crap on low octane fuel. Mostt engines for the rest of us poor they make the engines to run OK on 87 Octane.

It's not who makes the car it's the compression ratio that determines the level of octane you need. Octane can be looked at as a flash point rating. The lower the octane the lower the temp has to be to ignite the fuel. High compression engines found by any auto maker not just limited to luxury cars run a high compression chamber, when you force a lot of air molecules into a small area it heats up. Then what happens is if the octane is not high enough the compression stroke of an engine will ignite that fuel before the spark plug can.. that is called detonation or "Knock" because the piston is in the wrong part of it's stroke for that explosion to be happening.

Compression and octane are pretty basic to follow

8.5:1 air to fuel ratio is going to run on 85-87 octaine, you get around 10:1 you want midgrade, and higher you want 91+

Area vary like here in Colorado due to altitude. Here in Colorado most stations only go to 91Oct because at 5280Ft we have less oxygen then people at sealevel do, that means less oxygen in that comressed chamber to ignite the fuel prematurly 🙂

 

[CycloWizard]

Octane number is indicative of the compression ratio that it can support. The higher the octane number, the higher the compression ratio it can achieve. That said, your engine has a fixed compression ratio. Adding a higher octane gas is, therefore, a waste of money.

It's not quite so simple as just sticking another pipe in the line to add another additive. Adding an additive even at 0.1% of the volume can have drastic effects on the properties of the resulting solution, such as viscosity and vapor pressure. If these properties aren't right, your car won't work, so the entire line may have to be reformulated. Additionally, whatever gas is coming off the line has to be well-mixed to ensure homogeneity. You add another component and you have to add additional mixers and other things to make sure this happens. These additional processes will also increase pumping requirements, driving up the processing price even further.

As for the idea of a 'single formulation', that will never work. You simply can't have one fuel that will work in all conditions. For example, if I bought gas in Florida and had it flown to northern Alaska and put it in my car, my car wouldn't start. The fuel would be extremely viscous or even frozen. If I did the opposite (tried to pump Alaskan fuel in Florida), I'd probably die from all of the fumes, since the Alaskan fuel is geared to have a certain volatility at much lower temperatures. Raising the temperature will drastically increase the volatility. Kaboom.

 

[techs]

Oops. I meant to ask about the different blends the EPA mandates to fight air pollution around the country.
But the point CycloWizard makes that there are already different blends for different regions of the country and the season increases my confusion as to why a miniscule amount of additive causes so much cost/availability problems.

 

[da loser]

Map of Formulations Requirements for the US per Exxon

Paper cost of formulations

I haven't finished reading it completely, but it sounds reasonable so far. it's by an economist, so it doesn't go into too much technical detail.

Basically, the different formulations are not simply additives. some require additional processing at the refinery, using different processes. also, keep in mind not all refineries are the same, just like any factory.

anytime you add complexity to a widget, you increase the cost of the widget. also supply of the widget becomes specialized, so only select folks can produce the widget, so supply is tightened further.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: da loser
Map of Formulations Requirements for the US per Exxon

Paper cost of formulations

I haven't finished reading it completely, but it sounds reasonable so far. it's by an economist, so it doesn't go into too much technical detail.

Basically, the different formulations are not simply additives. some require additional processing at the refinery, using different processes. also, keep in mind not all refineries are the same, just like any factory.

anytime you add complexity to a widget, you increase the cost of the widget. also supply of the widget becomes specialized, so only select folks can produce the widget, so supply is tightened further.

If there was as much difference in the fuel as you suggest, engines would run like crap.

 

[Tom]

omg, imagine if Coke, Pepsi, and Dr Pepper, 7-Up all were made with different recipes, soda would cost like $3 a gallon.

Imagine if you had to get milk out of cows and eggs from chickens, no one could afford to buy breakfast.

We should be thankful the oil companies can deal with this ginormous problem for us.

 

[da loser]

hmmm 1 gal = 3.785L. 3L bottle of coke = $3
therefore 1 gal = $3.785 OMG, down with coca cola.

 

[Tom]

i can get 2L of Pepsi for .69, ironically, at the BP station !

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Tom
i can get 2L of Pepsi for .69, ironically, at the BP station !

Loss leader.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Tom
i can get 2L of Pepsi for .69, ironically, at the BP station !

Loss leader.

2L of Regular = Cash Cow

4tw

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

So bumping the price up everywhere to CA levels is better? OK.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

So bumping the price up everywhere to CA levels is better? OK.

Id ont know that it would cause it be more expensive or not. Lets face it maintaining 20 different varieties of fuel in 3 grades cant make things cheap.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

So bumping the price up everywhere to CA levels is better? OK.

Id ont know that it would cause it be more expensive or not. Lets face it maintaining 20 different varieties of fuel in 3 grades cant make things cheap.

I don't know how it works in other places, but the same tanker filled up all of the gas stations in my home town when I was growing up??

As far as ethanol goes, the guy who delievers gas to our farm says all they do is put 900 gallons of gas on, then drive over to the ethanol tank and top the truck off with 100 gallons of ethanol to make a 10% blend.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

So bumping the price up everywhere to CA levels is better? OK.

Absolutely and you should agree since then they can't use the supply excuse.

Oh wait, that's you and your Oil Baron buddies favorite so you love it.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: charrison
Environmental regulations. some enforced by the EPA, other enforced by the local state. The EPA should enforce a single clean formula for its mandates.

You only think you want that because then they would expect all gasoline to be made to CA standards and I am fairly confident it is the most expensive blend there is.....so you would drive the price up everywhere.

One CA standard would probably still be better than 20 regional standards.

So bumping the price up everywhere to CA levels is better? OK.

Absolutely and you should agree since then they can't use the supply excuse.

Oh wait, that's you and your Oil Baron buddies favorite so you love it.

Fine then pick a grade of fuel that offers the best cost/benefit for those areas that require special fuel and stick with that one.

 

[BlancoNino]

You can buy gas that has less than 87 octane in it in places like Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, etc. The reason for that? Engines lose compression at higher altitudes, thus eliminating their need for more octane. And yes, it is cheaper.