Explain how this makes sense (with logic please)

[Agentbolt]

I've stayed out of off-topic stuff for awhile, but maybe you guys can clarify something for me tonight.

Boy goes out on date. Boy knows girl beforehand but not very well, knowing only that she is a vigorous young go-getter, fairly well off, and a feminist. Not the crazy kind that wants to stockpile enough sperm to perpetuate the human race for 1000 years and then nuke all the men, but definitely very "rah rah girls rule and can do anything boys can do".

Boy goes with girl to local coffee/dessert bar, has extremely pleasant, entertaining conversation with her, and when the check comes, pays for his own food and drink. He does not offer to pay for hers. Why not?

A: Avoid offending her feminist sensibilities by in any way giving the impression that she cannot take care of herself.
B: Girl spent most of evening talking about how women are exactly equal to men, should get paid the same, should equally represent the higher positions in the workforce, should be respected for all the crap they get from men, etc.
C: I am wicked cheap.

When girl sees guy has only put in enough money for himself, date flatlines. Conversation becomes forced, guy gets "double pat let's-be-friends-except-not-really" hug at the end of date.

Guy asks friend of girl what went wrong, and friend of girl informs guy that he is an asshole for not immediately paying for all food and drink. When I (whoops! Yeah this isn't a hypothetical situation, in case you hadn't figured it out yet) counter with "but she's all about the girl power or whatever, I didn't want to offend her. Isn't it kind of, you know, demeaning to act like I need to support her right off the bat?". Friend of girl retorts with "Ugh, you're so STUPID Agentbolt".

When I informed my guy friends how the date went, most of them groaned and one of them threatened to take away my man card. When I explained why I didn't pay, I received a universal "dude, you just pay for the first date, idiot. That's how it works" response.

So please, someone explain this to me, using small words and logical arguments. I consider myself a fairly progressive guy, and frankly, the thought of a world where it's not expected that I shell out for everything on the first date simply because I have male equipment doesn't sound all that bad. Every single word that came out of that chick's mouth screamed "TREAT ME EQUALLY" but apparently I didn't hear the "*except for the stuff I don't want to do" part.

What's worst is that, judging from the reaction I received, this kind of, well, let's say it, hypocrisy, isn't uncommon. This isn't a new complaint, but seriously, since when did a platform of "I want all the good stuff men get but I still don't want to register for the selective service or pay for anything" become accepted? How is this not lunacy? I mean, clearly I'm an idiot for even questioning whether to throw in her share too, but I just want someone (maybe even a woman) to explain to me WHY I'm an idiot. Like I said, this wasn't solely about not offending her, deep down I was of course pumped about getting out of this thing 10 bucks cheaper than I'd thought at first, but still, come on.



*And yes, yes, clearly I'm a mysogonist and hate women and have never ever had a girlfriend in my entire life, blah blah blah. It's not like I'm upset or angry or something, I just think it's an interesting little situation that's developed between guys and gals here.

 

[jme5343]

Nope, you're right. It has to go both ways.

 

[DigitalCancer]

i agree. Don't understand why women are helpless and can't pay for their own damn food, i mean, come on! I don't mind taking a girl out sometimes, but i don't believe in first date payments. MAYBE a movie if you're the one that ask's her out to it, but she foots her own food. ^_^

 

[amicold]

PIIHB. Screw her, she sounds like a douche.

 

[irishScott]

If you ask her out on a date, then you are "treating" her to coffee/movie/dinner/whatever. Therefore it is your responsibility to fork over the dough unless there's some arrangement made beforehand. This is true for the first date AT LEAST. If/when you and her develop a relationship where she genuinely wants to be around you, then start retracting. Until then, your stuck with the $$.

Edit: She's still a douche for completely shutting you down like that. Hit it if you can and run.

 

[Agentbolt]

Awesome. See, I'm getting support, but the fact still remains that

A: Feminism is still a growing movement
B: Chicks paying their own share of the first date, demanding to pay just as much for their car insurance, and working hard to not automatically be HEAVILY favored in child custody cases is not a growing movement.

It's either seperate but equal or just plain equal, ladies. One or the other.

edit: So irishscott, you're saying that if she'd asked ME out on a date, I should expect HER to pay for the first date. I find it interesting you assume I asked her in the first place.

 

[CycloWizard]

Feminists want the opportunities that men have, not the responsibilities. I had to drag this information out of two feminists under duress. They thought I was retarded for not realizing that even though they wanted equal opportunities, they still hoped for 'chivalry', which is apparently what women think causes men to pay for them on dates, first or otherwise.

This is why I'm starting a masculinism movement. Who's coming with me?

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Awesome. See, I'm getting support, but the fact still remains that

A: Feminism is still a growing movement
B: Chicks paying their own share of the first date, demanding to pay just as much for their car insurance, and working hard to not automatically be HEAVILY favored in child custody cases is not a growing movement.

It's either seperate but equal or just plain equal, ladies. One or the other.

edit: So irishscott, you're saying that if she'd asked ME out on a date, I should expect HER to pay for the first date. I find it interesting you assume I asked her in the first place.

Correct. However, I have only heard of one case where a girl asked a guy out (in a non-subtle fashion), and she did pay for about 75% of it. I would personally offer to pay my way in that scenario, but that's me.

On the other hand, such conflicts are normally a good test. In your case, the girl turned out to be a douchebag. On my first date I offered to pay for all of it, but she said no. I said fine (not what she wanted to hear) and got a much deflated date the rest of the time. I did my best to make it enjoyable though, and she apparently liked me enough that we had a second date the following week. It's been smooth sailing from there, and we've now been together for about 1.5 months.

Edit: I agree with your post, but reality is reality.

 

[Agentbolt]

Awesome, thanks all. Although I'm clearly still a cheap a-hole who's likely to die alone, at least some people will admit I have a valid argument, even if they're maybe not going to agree with it in public

Edit: I agree with your point b, but reality is reality.

Damn straight. I'm obviously still going to assume I'm paying and the best case scenario is that I'll be pleasantly surprised when she genuinely refuses. Great progress can start with impotent whining on computer message boards, though.

 

[Captante]

Let me bottom line this for you ... wether you think she was right in this case or not is irrelevent... here it is in small words like you asked for:

first date + you not paying = no poon for you.

Simple & logical enough for you?

 

[Agentbolt]

I hate that argument. Yes, it's true, but when you look at it like that...aren't I just better off paying for a hooker? At least then you know you get to play with her naughty parts at the end of the night.

 

[Captante]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
I hate that argument. Yes, it's true, but when you look at it like that...aren't I just better off paying for a hooker? At least then you know you get to play with her naughty parts at the end of the night.

Valid point ... in some ways hookers are the most honest women when it comes down to sex, at least they ask for the money directly! (j/k!)

Your mistake here is using logic in an attempt to understand a woman ... it'll get you nowhere with most of them.


Edit: Seriously its not that I don't agree with you in principle, but where did your actions get you vs where you wanted to go? Exactly.