"Experts" are full of crap.

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rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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Ah hell, I doubt you will read it so I will cut and paste the naughty bit into the forum to annoy you, notice the last sentence:



<< We now review empirical research aimed at assessing the relationship between crime and employment,2 a necessary bridge between the theories and the program evaluations. This research has been conducted at many different levels of aggregation, including national time-series data, state and local cross-sectional data and individual-level data.

National level. A review by Chiricos (1986) finds that most national level analyses have yielded weak results on the crime-employment relationship. Freeman (1994) claims that this is primarily because of the weakness in the time-series statistical model with national data. One exception is a paper by Cook and Zarkin (1985). They report mixed results from an analysis of business cycles from 1933 to 1982. In general, crime has increased over the last 50 years. However, homicide rates did not vary systematically with the business cycle while the rate of increase in burglary and robbery has been higher during the economic downturns than during the upturns. This is consistent with the idea that low employment leads to an increased propensity to commit property crime while violent crime is driven by other factors. At the same time, they found that auto-theft was actually pro-cyclical--- auto-theft increased faster when the economy improved and more slowly when the economy declined. This is consistent with the idea that the opportunity for auto-theft increases when employment (and hence disposable income) increases. We shall present no other findings at this level of aggregation because it seems to provide least insight into those policy issues with which we are particularly concerned.

Community Level Chiricos does find, however, that at lower levels of aggregation (states, counties and cities) roughly half of all reported studies show a positive and statistically significant relationship between employment and crime, using post-1970 data.3 The fraction of positive results increases to almost 75 percent of all studies when property crimes are analyzed separately from violent crimes.

Individual level Analyses of individual level data have attracted more attention as these data have become available. Studies of the 1945 Philadelphia birth cohort have shown that unemployment is associated with crime (e.g., Wolfgang, Figlio, Sellin, 1972), a finding that is reported in numerous other studies. However the causality is uncertain. Sampson and Laub (1993) argue that employment per se or by itself does not reduce crime or increase social control; it is only stability, commitment and responsibility that may be associated with getting a job that has crime reducing consequences. Gottfredson and Hirschi (1990) argue that the relationship is essentially spurious, reflection of a common third factor which they call the level of individual social control.

Economic choice theory is further supported by evidence showing that human capital influences earnings, and earnings influence recidivism by ex-offenders (Needels, 1996). Social control theory seems to have relevance, too, within the context of economic choice. Farrington et al. (1986) tie crime more directly to employment by examining the timing of crime and employment over almost 3 years for a sample of teenage males in England. They show that property crimes are committed more frequently during periods of joblessness. However, this relationship held only for those who were predisposed to crime (as reflected by self-reports on earlier criminal activity and moral values); otherwise spells of joblessness did not induce more criminal offending.

This brief review establishes that researchers have measured a relationship between crime and employment, and that a number of mechanisms, operating both at the individual and community level, may explain the relationship.
>>

 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Tominator

You made a statement that Gore is going to take our guns away.


PROVE IT

The more you throw out meaningless bullsh!t like you are doing now,including YOUR EMOTIONAL RESPONSE,the easier it is for the reader to see the paranoid baseless assetions you use to gird up your fears of losing your right to bear arms. That is the point of this thread and your persistance,is it not?

We all need to see how smart you are. According to you and Russ and Etech and a few others,anyone who challenges you guys is without gray matter between the ears. You make the arguement that I would disregard any documentation that you could present to support your position. Post it. You don't need to impress me. I made my decision about this issue long ago and I am comfortable with it.Others may want to see the basis of your &quot;Illumunation&quot;.


We are waiting.:D
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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Actually, Rahvin, I'm reading it right now and, on balance it proves my point that the &quot;experts&quot; are simply guessing when they claim as fact that crime declines during economic prosperity. Some quotes from your own link:



<< National level. A review by Chiricos (1986) finds that most national level analyses have yielded weak results on the crime-employment relationship. >>





<< No employment results were reported; thus the impact of the program on workplace performance must be inferred(emphasis added) from the impact on crime. >>





<< Both employment and official criminal justice outcomes were reported. The labor market outcome differences were non-significant and small >>





<< That fact was the original source of interest in the early 1960's in assessing whether recidivism might be reduced by providing these adults with additional educational and job skills...secondary reviews from the early 1970's, after these programs had been around for roughly 10 years, were uniformly negative. >>



And your statement:



<< Total crime has been increasing linearly, it is a result of a linearly increasing population >>



The crime index has seen linear growth over the decades. It is based on per capita calculations and thus accounts for population growth.

Now, if the &quot;experts&quot; were to say that there may be a correlation based on some very weak and erratic associations that would be one thing. But this has been stated so many times that it has become the defacto correct conclusion. It is not.

Russ, NCNE
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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<< We are waiting. >>



Tripleshot,

Just as I am waiting for your response. In case you missed it, I'll repeat the question:

Outside of eventual confiscation, give me ONE logical reason to register gun owners. For once, actually respond to a point, instead of resorting to name-calling.

Russ, NCNE
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Russ,

Sorry to be so late to the flamefest. Anyone who read the last gun thread will recognize this as a nothing but a self engratiating repeat to pump yourselves up at the expense of others. I really wonder about your motivation.:|

<<Either that, or give me some OTHER logical reason to register gun owners. There are none.>>

I'll take a stab at it.

By having the guns registered,in case your weapon is stolen and used in the commission of a crime,the balistic signature could be traced to its source on file.That may help in solving a crime and bringing a criminal to justice.


Or maybe another scenerio.In a hypathetical situation,it may be neccesary to poll a data base to find who may be armed and with what armerment to aid and assist law enforcement in there duties.Maybe you could be &quot;deputized&quot; to quell an insurrection in the future.

Take your pick or invent your own.

Neither you or your friends have offered ANY credible evidence that Gore or Bush or anyone wants to take your guns away.

You have alot of room to talk about emotions and the decesion making process. You picked a subject thats sole purpose is to engender emotional responses. Thats because you have no facts.
...................................................................................

Edit. This is the last I have to say about this subject. I have had a gutful of Russ and Tominator and this whole crowd. The rest of the readership can take over. It is not fun to have your intelligence insulted by this group of John Wayne wannabes. Have a nice life.
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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Tripleshot,

Nice try. The serial number database is already maintained at the state and local level by the gun shop where the weapon was purchased, and in their absence, the local police department. How do you think they do this now? There is no reason to turn this information over to the federal government and register the owner to run a trace on a weapon involved in a crime.

Your second scenario is just laughable. You're really stretching your credibility when you argue on the one hand that we Second Amendment supporters are a bunch of nuts, and then on the other that we need a national database so law enforcement can all upon us in times of need.

Those of us who support our Constitutional rights have history on our side. I'll repeat this again: In every country throughout history, registration has invariably led to confiscation. You are deluding yourself if you don't believe that is what would eventually happen here.

It is the goal of both HCI and their offshoot organizations, such as Ceasefire, to remove guns from the hands of private citizens. Bore has been endorsed in the past by the gun-grabber organizations. He would not have received their support, unless he agreed with their agenda.

Still waiting for a logical reason.



<< Anyone who read the last gun thread will recognize this as a nothing but a self engratiating repeat to pump yourselves up at the expense of others. >>



I see you're already resorting to personal attacks. You really should learn to debate the issues on the merits. Insults just make you look desperate.

Russ, NCNE
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Tripleshot, thanks for the honor of being included with Russ and Tominator. They are both members of this board that I have some respect for.

I don't remember ever insinuating &quot;anyone who challenges you guys is without gray matter between the ears.&quot;
I am open to discussions but also try to follow some of the rules I learned in debate. If you post an opinion, fine, state it as such. If you have facts, be prepared to back them up.
And most important of all, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are implying you are without intelligence. It's quite possible to have debates/discussion without rancor with just a little effort.
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
1
0


<< By having the guns registered,in case your weapon is stolen and used in the commission of a crime,the balistic signature could be traced to its source on file.That may help in solving a crime and bringing a criminal to justice. >>



Just to start...speaking as a qualified gunsmith....I know of no firearm that the barrel cannot be replaced! There is no such thing as a 'ballistic fingerprint!' Possibly if you were to submit to 'unreasonable search and seizure,' we might bring more criminals to justice. As a note, I could alter the so-called 'ballistic signature' of any gun barrell with a toothbrush and toothpaste!

The only real proof in the accusation of Gore as wanting to confiscate all guns is history. Never has registration not led to confiscation. NEVER!

The assualt on our 'God Given Rights' has been going on for years. They have realised that Americans are opposed to confiscation, but Gore and the Liberals have never let Law, the Constitution, or the People stand in the way of their socialist agenda. Incrimentalism! [Is that spelled right?] Just like Socialised Medicine. The Public said NO! now, we've got Gore taunting our Seniors with the promise of a Healthcare Utopia that would bankrupt the country.

PROVE that I'm full of it!
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
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Russ,

What do you think of licensing gun owners? They've done that up here in Canada. I haven't thoroughly investigated this (I just got a flyer about it in the mail) but the general idea is you pay $10 for a picture ID card, and with this you can purchase ammo (and only for the gun that is listed on your license). Nobody will legally sell you ammo without it now. I think it's just a cash grab because I'm sure criminals could just get ammo illegally anyway, but what do gun owners think (I don't know of any personally!)? Do most criminals just buy their ammo from a gun shop and only get their guns illegally?

-GL

 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Tominator,

PROVE that I'm full of it!

Thats ok friend. Your doing a fine job all by yourself!:disgust:
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
1
0
Tripleshot

Plain to see you are ..uh..outgunned!:)

I wish you God's speed and continued complete ignorance....
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Russ,

<<Neither you or your friends have offered ANY credible evidence that Gore or Bush or anyone wants to take your guns away. >>

>>Still waiting for a logical reason<<

I guess we will both wait.


BTW,Are you insinuating I don't support the 2nd ammendment? You are really pissing me off. You are the one perpetuating this personal attack.

It's a pity grown people have to witness this spectacle of you trying to intellectualize your insecurity over the errouniously perceieved notion that you and I are going to be disarmed by: hmm what do you john Waynes call us, socialists?

You're pathetic!
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
0
GL,

&quot;Licensing&quot; and registration are two sides of the same coin, and lead to the same result; building and maintaining a database of anyone who may own a weapon. I do not now, nor would I ever trust this database in the hands of a group of people who have repeatedly demonstrated a total disregard for the rights of the individual.

The only people who submit to these intrusions are the law abiding. Criminals will ignore it just as they do the many thousands of other gun laws.

Russ, NCNE

 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
It's the people that want to register guns who have the burden of proof. Why do they want them registered and what will they do with the information they gather? Once that question is answered then the discussion may begin.
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
0


<< You are the one perpetuating this personal attack. >>



Tripleshot,

I have leveled no personal attacks. All I have done is debate the issues that YOU have initiated.

It is you who, time and again, resort to staments such as this:



<< It's a pity grown people have to witness this spectacle of you trying to intellectualize your insecurity over the errouniously perceieved notion that you and I are going to be disarmed by: hmm what do you john Waynes call us, socialists?

You're pathetic!
>>



You have done similar in every thread where there are some who disagree with you. Perhaps you are simply one of those who should not be debating at all. Clearly, you take it far too personally.

BTW, it was you who decided to inject the gun issue in to this thread. It WAS a discussion of the relationship between crime and the economy.

Russ, NCNE
 

Tominator

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,559
1
0
Russ
It does no good. Those that choose to be ignorant will continue to be so.
Didn't Einstein say that?..or should have:D
 

KingHam

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,670
0
0
Me thinks someone is trying to hide the truth by catagorizing it as mean-spirited.

KingHam
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Russ,

<<BTW, it was you who decided to inject the gun issue in to this thread. It WAS a discussion of the relationship between crime and the economy.

This quote is from the thread aboutgun control , and relates to the drop in crime rates over the past several years. I can't seem to find the original thread anywhere, so I'll start another.

Tominator,you are going to continue to add gas to the fire aren't you?

What in the hell makes you think I am less intellegent than you or anyone else? Who the Fvck do you think you are? Thats all you to Bast@rds have done is attack my intelligence because I don't kiss your mother fvcking ass and agree with every slam you utter. Typical republican character attack because you haven't got anything else.

You lay off the attack and respect my opinion,and I'll do the same for you and your opinion.

Your move.
 

KingHam

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,670
0
0
That sure is a lot of profanity for someone who hates personal attacks so much.

ROTFL!

KingHam
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
0


<< Thats all you to Bast@rds have done is attack my intelligence >>



Please show me where I have done that. Also, while you're at it, show me where I have called you any names even remotely like those you have called me. You can't, because I haven't.

Russ, NCNE
 

KingHam

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,670
0
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I think that his worst insult was calling you a Republican. That other stuff is tasteless but, I don't think that I could stand for that ;).

KingHam
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
0


<< BTW, who's going to win the WS. >>



Red,

Actually, I have a very solid prediction on that. It won't be the Mariners.

Russ, NCNE
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
1
0
Russ,

you have not called me a bast@rd ever. I will make that clear. But it is a bit disengenuous of you to try and claim innosence.

From my thread:
You are either possessed of far less intellegince than I assumed, or you're just screwing around. The analogy is a very simple one.

There are other instances you made of my thinking capabilities and they are now a public knowledge. The thread is still alive and being read by members that may not know how to take it.

I said I'm pissed. I speak that way when I'm pissed. It's really good this is a computer. Someone would have been hurt badly had this been face to face and these insults had been leveled.

We may be of different political persuasions and different socio/economic backgrounds,but I would never have insulted you for the sake of the discusion. You do it to everyone who doesn't meet your intellectual level or advances your theory.If the response isn't to your liking, you level an insult along with your answer. I have grown to dislike immensly that kind of arrogance.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Let me see I have guns and I don't think I should have to register them but if the liberals want to register theirs i have no objections to that. Since i am not forcing my opinion on them courtesy would demand that they do the same so when they all run down to register their guns ;) I am sure that they will give me the same consideration that i would them and not attempt to force me to register as they are.

p.s. If any of you liberals didn't get that it is commonly known as sarcasm.
 

KingHam

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,670
0
0
I disagree Red. The problem is that the 2 candidates are all too representitive of their respective parties.

KingHam