Expelled--No Intelligence Allowed Movie lacks intelligence?

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apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: apoppin
Why not? Isn't spontaneous generation just Occam's razor?

actually it is .. along with traditional creation explanations
... i did not want to state the obvious .. but thank-you

From the Wiki:

lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

rose.gif


Of course this is "philosophy" and the "scientists" will give you this:

The aforementioned problem of underdetermination poses a serious obstacle to applications of the scientific method. Formulating theories and selecting the most promising ones is impossible without a way of choosing among an arbitrarily large number of theories, all of which fit with the evidence equally well. If any one principle could single-handedly reduce all these infinite possibilities to find the one best theory, at first glance one might deduce that the whole of scientific method simply follows from it, and thus that it alone would be sufficient to power the whole process of hypothesis formulation and rejection scientists undertake.

to translate [re: Our Beginning]:

No one really knows
- to the point of being able to "prove" it to someone else who requires proof

what i am proposing - in theory is different from anything i have ever seen; anywhere:

- i propose to "prove" - to Creation-believers - that "God" does NOT exist .. and the result of this "experiment" may in fact prove that He Does - to atheists!
... i have the most Open mind here - i am willing to accept the results of my own unpredictable experiment result - you can only guess as "my experiment" has a 50-50 chance to go either way.
:Q

^^yes, this is "new" - a logical way to prove the "unprovable"
- and it is practical and not a paradox .. and it is all mine :)
[i have been working on it for awhile - it is a theory,also; but no one will like it "in practice"; i can guarantee]

Unless I'm missing what you're saying, which is entirely possible based on the way you've grammatically structured your posts, you want to know why science can't disprove god? God is a creation of faith. Faith, by definition, does not rely on facts. Science relies on facts. Therefore, the realm of science and the realm of faith are mutually exclusive.

The classic answer, of course, is that we also can't disprove that invisible, undetectable unicorns / elephants / mice / aliens / whatever are living amongst us.

Ah, but we don't need to *disprove anything* to non-believers :p
- For example, we would not need to disprove the "easter bunny's" existence - to NON-believers; only to children and simple-minded people who already believe in a bunny that lays chocolate eggs, right?
.. . . . following my logic?

- We would only need to prove to BELIEVERS that God does not exist; "we" know better, right?

We can take it from there - if you agree, so far
- i will give you my theorem of the "how" to do it
[in theory]

-----------

I was never taught that abiogenesis was anything more than a hypothetical origin of life. Is this not the case elsewhere?

The reason "spontaneous generation of life" is more scientific than "god created" is because there is a hypothetical basis for spontaneous generation that is grounded in current scientific knowledge. We are a long way off from "proving" it, but it is definitely more scientific because it can be tested. "God" cannot be tested scientifically, because "God" is not part of the physical universe (by definition). Even religious people will generally agree that "God" is above the laws of phys

Nope, if you looks at current classroom textbooks, Spontaneous Generation is presented as "god" in Evolution. The alternate - "god created" is not considered in most public classroom,

There is "no more" scientific evidence for EITHER theory; it is not Scientific to propose something that cannot be demonstrated at all.

==================
Moonbeam, why are you always posting about self hate? Do you hate yourself?
You mistake his posts; he loves himself and his own butt about as well as i do; we just disagree about "god"
in contrast to his personal "faith", i just believe His creator - his god - is insane .. absolute power corrupts absolutely

rose.gif


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,860
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Originally posted by: spittledip
Originally posted by: Enig101
Originally posted by: apoppin
the problem is when 'articles of faith' -> "Spontaneous Generation of Life" - are promoted as an AGENDA by a godless-evolution - ARE taught in the classroom as more than PURE CONJECTURE - that is a problem i do have - the same as if a religious fanatic tried to teach my kids any nonsense from an ancient jewish document about Our Origins

Spontaneous Generation of Life is not more "scientific" than "god created"
- they are both just as unproven - except in the closed minds of their respective supporters
I was never taught that abiogenesis was anything more than a hypothetical origin of life. Is this not the case elsewhere?

The reason "spontaneous generation of life" is more scientific than "god created" is because there is a hypothetical basis for spontaneous generation that is grounded in current scientific knowledge. We are a long way off from "proving" it, but it is definitely more scientific because it can be tested. "God" cannot be tested scientifically, because "God" is not part of the physical universe (by definition). Even religious people will generally agree that "God" is above the laws of physics.

Originally posted by: spittledip
2. Actually, the concept of God offers many answers to questions about life in a satisfying way; "satisfying" meaning relevant and cohesive.
Faith is not a blind thing. There are many things in life that point to God but for personal reasons(i.e. personal motivations) many choose to reject these things.
Can you give an example of something which inherently points to God, and does not rely on a religious perspective to give it such meaning?
I am not sure if you can talk about God and not have a religious meaning attached.... Anything I could possibly think of would be interpreted as "religious." I am not sure why that should matter anyway.And, even if I did present something, someone else might interpret it as something that points to another viewpoint. That is the problem with reasoning- you can arrive at several conclusions and the although some of the conclusions may be wrong, the reasoning used might not be "wrong." That is why it is importnt to not use just one sole discipline to arrive at truth. You must use everything you have in your grasp.

Of course. To find your one true path you have to rely on all the brainwashing you got, clues, in other words, as to the true nature of that one true path, as do all the others who have found one of the other millions on only ways to the truth. Then you fight it out and the one true path with the most donations builds the biggest temple to the one true path they can and declares themselves the winner as they beat the rest of us brain dead with their proselytizing.
 

Enig101

Senior member
May 21, 2006
362
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Originally posted by: apoppin
I was never taught that abiogenesis was anything more than a hypothetical origin of life. Is this not the case elsewhere?

The reason "spontaneous generation of life" is more scientific than "god created" is because there is a hypothetical basis for spontaneous generation that is grounded in current scientific knowledge. We are a long way off from "proving" it, but it is definitely more scientific because it can be tested. "God" cannot be tested scientifically, because "God" is not part of the physical universe (by definition). Even religious people will generally agree that "God" is above the laws of phys

Nope, if you looks at current classroom textbooks, Spontaneous Generation is presented as "god" in Evolution. The alternate - "god created" is not considered in most public classroom,

There is "no more" scientific evidence for EITHER theory; it is not Scientific to propose something that cannot be demonstrated at all.
Well, I don't know about textbooks, but if anyone is saying spontaneous generation is more than a possible source of the origin of life, they are being misleading.

However, as I said in my previous post, "god created" is not an equivalent alternative. Just because there is no definitive proof for either does not mean they are equal. There is a reasonable basis (in the physical universe) for spontaneous generation, not so for "God". This basis makes it more valid in the context of scientific discussion. It has not been demonstrated fully yet, sure, but it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation, which is crucial in making it a valid scientific hypothesis.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Of course. To find your one true path you have to rely on all the brainwashing you got, clues, in other words, as to the true nature of that one true path, as do all the others who have found one of the other millions on only ways to the truth. Then you fight it out and the one true path with the most donations builds the biggest temple to the one true path they can and declares themselves the winner as they beat the rest of us brain dead with their proselytizing.

Yet there is no "one true path" ... you DID say "To find your one true path" .. and i thank you for that

i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways

rose.gif


==============

Well, I don't know about textbooks, but if anyone is saying spontaneous generation is more than a possible source of the origin of life, they are being misleading.

However, as I said in my previous post, "god created" is not an equivalent alternative. Just because there is no definitive proof for either does not mean they are equal. There is a reasonable basis (in the physical universe) for spontaneous generation, not so for "God". This basis makes it more validin the context of scientific discussion ****What fu@king basis? you made a LEAP of faith just there***. It has not been demonstrated fully yet, sure, but it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation, which is crucial in making it a valid scientific hypothesis.
i underlined all the Bullsh!t

there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND
i am saying either is just as "likely" .. as SG has not been demonstrated AT ALL!

--or go ahead and prove what you think the rest of us believe is BS and is not supported by "science"

it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation
^^^these are your words^^ - You got the proof? Post it right here! - we are all waiting for "scientific proof"
- or eat your words

rose.gif
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
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Originally posted by: apoppin

there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND

Any scientific hypothesis is better then "god did it". What would the point be of anyone posting any proof that contradicts what you post? You have never replied to anything without a long rambling stream of garbage.

 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
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alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Originally posted by: apoppin

there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND

Any scientific hypothesis is better then "god did it". What would the point be of anyone posting any proof that contradicts what you post? You have never replied to anything without a long rambling stream of garbage.

Only a garbage master might recognize another's "garbage" :p
- and i bow to you as Garbage-master

Any scientific hypothesis is better then "god did it"

^^By this ignorant statement^^ -You demonstrate you are at least as ignorant as the creationists you despise
- a bottom feeder wannabe "Pseudo Scientist"

No one wants to see my theorem "how to disprove god to believers.. so i will not force it on them; and you have zero clue about what i am talking anyway
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,137
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I for one am very interested to see your theory on how to disprove god. You should probably write a book to be honest, as people have been attempting to do this for thousands of years and have failed.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: spittledip
Originally posted by: Enig101
Originally posted by: apoppin
the problem is when 'articles of faith' -> "Spontaneous Generation of Life" - are promoted as an AGENDA by a godless-evolution - ARE taught in the classroom as more than PURE CONJECTURE - that is a problem i do have - the same as if a religious fanatic tried to teach my kids any nonsense from an ancient jewish document about Our Origins

Spontaneous Generation of Life is not more "scientific" than "god created"
- they are both just as unproven - except in the closed minds of their respective supporters
I was never taught that abiogenesis was anything more than a hypothetical origin of life. Is this not the case elsewhere?

The reason "spontaneous generation of life" is more scientific than "god created" is because there is a hypothetical basis for spontaneous generation that is grounded in current scientific knowledge. We are a long way off from "proving" it, but it is definitely more scientific because it can be tested. "God" cannot be tested scientifically, because "God" is not part of the physical universe (by definition). Even religious people will generally agree that "God" is above the laws of physics.

Originally posted by: spittledip
2. Actually, the concept of God offers many answers to questions about life in a satisfying way; "satisfying" meaning relevant and cohesive.
Faith is not a blind thing. There are many things in life that point to God but for personal reasons(i.e. personal motivations) many choose to reject these things.
Can you give an example of something which inherently points to God, and does not rely on a religious perspective to give it such meaning?
I am not sure if you can talk about God and not have a religious meaning attached.... Anything I could possibly think of would be interpreted as "religious." I am not sure why that should matter anyway.And, even if I did present something, someone else might interpret it as something that points to another viewpoint. That is the problem with reasoning- you can arrive at several conclusions and the although some of the conclusions may be wrong, the reasoning used might not be "wrong." That is why it is importnt to not use just one sole discipline to arrive at truth. You must use everything you have in your grasp.

Of course. To find your one true path you have to rely on all the brainwashing you got, clues, in other words, as to the true nature of that one true path, as do all the others who have found one of the other millions on only ways to the truth. Then you fight it out and the one true path with the most donations builds the biggest temple to the one true path they can and declares themselves the winner as they beat the rest of us brain dead with their proselytizing.

Obviously people with power are apt to become corrupt, no matter how little the power is. This does not speak against the possibility of one path, it only speaks of proof of the corruption of men.

That said, why is it impossible for there to be only one path? Why must there be "many paths"?
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: piasabird
Prove it?

How does the big bang theory differ from the God Creation Story? It is exchanging one myth for another one.

Energy is a chemical reaction at best.

No matter = No energy.

Nope, the chemicals have shown to interact in a way that could create the Big bang with all it's atoms and even the first organic matter through the primordial soup, this isn't something someone is just sitting here and guessing, this is something that tenths of thousands of people (if not more) is working on explaining every day, this is in contrast of the religions "these are the facts and that is the way it is" and anyone questioning it is dismissed.

^^THIS is a stinkin' pile of inorganic bullshit that will never become organic by "accident" - and it won't fly in in the face of "real science" - Your *Story* of Spontaneous Origins is CONJECTURE of the order of "god created" :p

You see, the scientific theories thrive on being disproven, it brings them further along, all they really aim for is to show the truth to the best of our knowledge, this is in contrast to religion which has the truth and doesn't give a fuck about evidence to the contrary.

to me it sound like you already "have your own religion" - Your god is "Chance", his Prophet was Darwin, and you have ZERO to base evolution on - the base is the same shit as the religious one - conjecture turning to DOGMA that is never questioned.

See, if something proves the theory of evolution wrong, it makes it more complete, if something proves religion wrong it is discarded as "well, god made that light reach the earth and made those carbon atoms as old as they are found and made .................... whatever it is" and this is taken as TRUTH without any evidence what so ever, yet the religious people ALWAYS ask for evidence when it comes to science....
evolution is proven right by observation .. but what most evolutionists "hang it on" - CHANCE - is as stupid as "god" for a basis.

Prove how life began and i will worship at your Temple of Higher Learning .. and i will Spread the Gospel for you.
-Amen monkey-brother! . . haladarwinja!


rose.gif

Son, they already created organic matter from inorganic matter BY ACCIDENT in a laboratory, if you had known anything about this subject you'd know that.

Darwin isn't even in the vincinity of the phenomena i am speaking of and if you knew your head from your arse you'd know that.

I'm not debating origins of man, i'm not even mentioning the fossil records, how the fuck you can conclude that i have even referred to anything that has anything to do with Darwins theories is beyond me.

To me, this just proves that you don't even bother to take in the information you read, you assume that "this is what all those arguing for evolution are like, no matter what they say" and you go from there.

You are a fucking idiot for doing so but what is even worse, as you don't read what anyone writes you'll remain an idiot.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
I for one am very interested to see your theory on how to disprove god. You should probably write a book to be honest, as people have been attempting to do this for thousands of years and have failed.

I agree, it's like trying to disprove the celestial teacup, you can't do it.

It's not anyones job to disprove anything though, just because something isn't proven to be wrong doesn't make it right.
 

Enig101

Senior member
May 21, 2006
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Apoppin, is it really necessary to be so aggressive? I'm not attacking you. I'm just trying to explain it from a scientific perspective. Being condescending and offensive does not make your point any stronger.

Before I respond properly, I would like to note that I have been misusing the term "spontaneous generation". Spontaneous generation refers to life simply appearing from non-life. This is a well outdated scientific view based on observations of things like maggots appearing as if from nowhere on decaying meat. In using the term "spontaneous generation" (I believe I used this term because others had been) I was actually referring to more recent models for abiogenesis which are based on a series of essentially chemical interactions. From now on I will refer to these models with the term "abiogenesis", rather than "spontaneous generation". There are in fact multiple current hypotheses for abiogenesis. (Again, textbooks should definitely not be claiming this is fact).

Now, I am assuming that you are also referring to current abiogenesis models. From the context of the discussion, it seems that you are. If you are not, then this post may in part be a waste of time.

Originally posted by: apoppin
There is a reasonable basis (in the physical universe) for spontaneous generation, not so for "God". This basis makes it more validin the context of scientific discussion ****What fu@king basis? you made a LEAP of faith just there***.
i underlined all the Bullsh!t
What I meant was that abiogenesis boils down to chemical reactions. We pretty well understand those. So from that logic, the hypotheses of abiogenesis have a basis in our current scientific knowledge (chemical reactions, catalysis, energy, molecules, etc). This is in stark contrast to "God created" which has no basis in science whatsoever.

Originally posted by: apoppin
there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND
i am saying either is just as "likely" .. as SG has not been demonstrated AT ALL!
There is a very big difference between "has not" and "can not". Abiogenesis has not yet been demonstrated, but it is certainly possible that it may be at some point. I'm not saying it will be demonstrated, only that it may be. We can be reasonably sure that "God created" can not be demonstrated, and therefore never will be.

Well now are you saying they are equally valid or they are equally likely? These are two different things. Likelihood refers to the odds of something happening. With regard to likelihood, I agree. As far as the generation of life goes, pretty much everything is equally likely from a philosophical perspective until we find out what actually happened. All this tells us is we don't know yet... ok.

I still maintain that they are not equally valid (scientifically) though.

Originally posted by: apoppin
--or go ahead and prove what you think the rest of us believe is BS and is not supported by "science"

it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation
^^^these are your words^^ - You got the proof? Post it right here! - we are all waiting for "scientific proof"
- or eat your words

rose.gif
I said it is possible to prove/disprove abiogenesis, not that it had been proved (and certainly not that I had proved it). In order for something to be truly scientific at all you must be able to test it. This is why I say that abiogenesis is scientifically valid, while "God created" is not, and thus that they are not scientifically equal.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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"I said it is possible to prove/disprove abiogenesis"

one thing everyone has to consider is that we do not have tenths of billions of years to prove this on or we could do it while sitting on our arses, what we DO know is that we can create organic matter from inorganic matter and that that is the first step, this was actually done BY ACCIDENT just like the first time.

Now of course, everyone will claim that that isn't enough and sure, it isn't until another ACCIDENT happen in some lab somewhere that actually creates the organism from the RNA (organic matter), i mean, we can create the building blocks for the organism, but for them to assemble just right will take some time, or something else, like a surge of electricity as in a lightning strike, is that possible? Well it is, electromagnetism is very likely just the thing that is needed at the right time in the right place and we do know that at the time lighting strikes were about a million an hour per mile of the earth.

So... this is what we know, to fill in the gaps we need more science, not some half assed theory that says we'll never understand it because aliens created it or god created it (there are references to aliens in ID since they are so hellbent on keeping it separate from creationism they had to come up with SOMETHING and they went with aliens in some cases, not in "about humans and pandas" though, that is just edited to replace creator with something different, as proven in the Dover trials.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,711
15,983
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Of course. To find your one true path you have to rely on all the brainwashing you got, clues, in other words, as to the true nature of that one true path, as do all the others who have found one of the other millions on only ways to the truth. Then you fight it out and the one true path with the most donations builds the biggest temple to the one true path they can and declares themselves the winner as they beat the rest of us brain dead with their proselytizing.

Yet there is no "one true path" ... you DID say "To find your one true path" .. and i thank you for that

i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways

rose.gif


==============

Well, I don't know about textbooks, but if anyone is saying spontaneous generation is more than a possible source of the origin of life, they are being misleading.

However, as I said in my previous post, "god created" is not an equivalent alternative. Just because there is no definitive proof for either does not mean they are equal. There is a reasonable basis (in the physical universe) for spontaneous generation, not so for "God". This basis makes it more validin the context of scientific discussion ****What fu@king basis? you made a LEAP of faith just there***. It has not been demonstrated fully yet, sure, but it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation, which is crucial in making it a valid scientific hypothesis.
i underlined all the Bullsh!t

there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND
i am saying either is just as "likely" .. as SG has not been demonstrated AT ALL!

--or go ahead and prove what you think the rest of us believe is BS and is not supported by "science"

it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation
^^^these are your words^^ - You got the proof? Post it right here! - we are all waiting for "scientific proof"
- or eat your words

rose.gif

Moonbeam and Apoppin arguing philosophy! :Q

Head Assplodes!

(Apoppin what are you doing here. Did video quiet down too much?)
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Paratus
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Of course. To find your one true path you have to rely on all the brainwashing you got, clues, in other words, as to the true nature of that one true path, as do all the others who have found one of the other millions on only ways to the truth. Then you fight it out and the one true path with the most donations builds the biggest temple to the one true path they can and declares themselves the winner as they beat the rest of us brain dead with their proselytizing.

Yet there is no "one true path" ... you DID say "To find your one true path" .. and i thank you for that

i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways

rose.gif


==============

Well, I don't know about textbooks, but if anyone is saying spontaneous generation is more than a possible source of the origin of life, they are being misleading.

However, as I said in my previous post, "god created" is not an equivalent alternative. Just because there is no definitive proof for either does not mean they are equal. There is a reasonable basis (in the physical universe) for spontaneous generation, not so for "God". This basis makes it more validin the context of scientific discussion ****What fu@king basis? you made a LEAP of faith just there***. It has not been demonstrated fully yet, sure, but it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation, which is crucial in making it a valid scientific hypothesis.
i underlined all the Bullsh!t

there is NO valid scientific hypothesis yet devised for SG that is any better than "god created" - EXCEPT in YOUR OWN MIND
i am saying either is just as "likely" .. as SG has not been demonstrated AT ALL!

--or go ahead and prove what you think the rest of us believe is BS and is not supported by "science"

it is possible to prove (or disprove) spontaneous generation
^^^these are your words^^ - You got the proof? Post it right here! - we are all waiting for "scientific proof"
- or eat your words

rose.gif

Moonbeam and Apoppin arguing philosophy! :Q

Head Assplodes!

(Apoppin what are you doing here. Did video quiet down too much?)

Yes it did; i was one of those who recently refused to really get 'involved' *there* anymore .. so guess what the cat dragged back in *here*? ..
:evil:
moonbeam and i have done this forever, btw; i suggested the creation of P&N years ago

i guess my function here would be more of a "Discordian" and a bit of chaos magician [although i would be "lawful" ultimately .. or at least very consistent as my debating opponents find out]
of course ... moonbeam needs no introduction here. Not many people can really figure out what he is saying .. especially any 'self-hate' which i reject and eschew as merely pain to get you somewhere.


in other words if you want 'in' on my own world views:

then declare yourself what you wish
do what you like
and tell us about it
or
if you prefer
don't.

There are no rules anywhere.
Chaos Prevails.

At least in P&N, so far .. thankfully

rose.gif


I said it is possible to prove/disprove abiogenesis, not that it had been proved (and certainly not that I had proved it). In order for something to be truly scientific at all you must be able to test it. This is why I say that abiogenesis is scientifically valid, while "God created" is not, and thus that they are not scientifically equal.
i am just taking it a step further than you can .. to prove to believers that God does not exist - in theory at least; practice might prove to be unpleasant.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: apoppin
I said it is possible to prove/disprove abiogenesis, not that it had been proved (and certainly not that I had proved it). In order for something to be truly scientific at all you must be able to test it. This is why I say that abiogenesis is scientifically valid, while "God created" is not, and thus that they are not scientifically equal.
i am just taking it a step further than you can .. to prove to believers that God does not exist - in theory at least; practice might prove to be unpleasant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: sirjonk
Originally posted by: apoppin
I said it is possible to prove/disprove abiogenesis, not that it had been proved (and certainly not that I had proved it). In order for something to be truly scientific at all you must be able to test it. This is why I say that abiogenesis is scientifically valid, while "God created" is not, and thus that they are not scientifically equal.
i am just taking it a step further than you can .. to prove to believers that God does not exist - in theory at least; practice might prove to be unpleasant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

Excuse me - but F#ck the wiki

my idea is new and it "proves" it to the only ones who matter
- "believers"
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Here is a good interview from Scientific American with Expelled's Associate Producer, Mark Mathis.

SciAM interview
Its a good listen if you enjoy hearing someone lie and backpedal for an hour.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,860
6,783
126
apoppin: i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways
----------------

M: First off, I have returned to see if your method has been posted yet. I've always thought you could hurry along proof of whether there's a God by killing yourself.

I do not understand what free will cuts both ways means.
===============

a: especially any 'self-hate' which i reject and eschew as merely pain to get you somewhere.

M: Self awareness and self analysis, psychoanalysis, and the data one acquires there can't be had without doing such work. An Einstein in the area of self analysis who discovers some deep and ancient truth couldn't tell a soul about it. The blind cannot see. The inexperienced can't have experience. Wisdom and insight can't be given away. They take events and time. The finger pointing at the moon isn't the moon. You can say anything you like, but you can't tell a wise man his wisdom is false. He knows what you do not and he knows that he knows.
================

a: You mistake his posts; he loves himself and his own butt about as well as i do; we just disagree about "god"
in contrast to his personal "faith", i just believe His creator - his god - is insane .. absolute power corrupts absolutely

M: If by my own butt you mean my attachment to my phony ego, I would agree. If you mean the vast joy I have glimpsed, well no. Absolute power corrupts the corruptible. As an absolute power and and its lover we found the beloved and ourselves to be one. There was only one and nothing to corrupt. There is nothing but love and no corruption need apply. No room, you see.
------------------

God is not a bearded weirdo, but I have to be careful. I happen to have a beard and am pretty weird. But I see it like this, as an ego who talks:

Humans evolved as the human chimp, an animal with an animal nature. I am a banana eater. In the banana is a universe of joy. I like to be tickled and smell my behind. I like to swing from trees. I love to hoot and shout and throw sticks at leopards. I am perfect bliss, a being of amazing gifts. I am all that I am conscious of, the universe and I are one. No thoughts, no opinions, no feelings that I am bad. In my perfection, I am and what I am is the total range of what is my consciousness. There are no psychological barriers, no assumptions, no identifications that divide me into this and that self. I am whole and complete, a total full human chimp.

But along came language and I learned to understand speech, and I was told I was no good. I was told I would have no bananas if I didn't act thus and so, a thus and so that was totally different every time. I learned through luggage that I didn't measure up, that my poop stunk, that my behavior disturbed others, that I am bad, the worst in the world, actually, and the pain of that was more than I could bear. I became the conformist, dead Little monkey that was demanded of me. I would have died if I retained consciously all the pain of being unloved. I became the champion of all sheep chimps every were, the perfect upright monkey. I took on all manner of different me. I am a Democrat, an American, a Giant's fan, a Christian, and on and on, anything that offers some love.

But in this vast world of sleeping chimps I thing occasionally one awakens, perhaps with the help of those who already are. I think I've seen a couple and this is what I hear them say.

Don't trust what I hear, because I'm deaf like you, but anyway:

God exists because he is the projection of human potential, the original face of man, that which we can become when the false selves die. They can die by yoga or by being a monk or laying on a bed of nails. They can die in all manner of ways but they rarely do. The motivation not to experience the absolute pain a human without any emotional armor, like we were as children, is the maximum pain a being can experience. We don't want to do that again or know, remember, that we did.

God is a realization that comes with the experience of a mental state, the state of original psychic unity, the rooting up of the unconscious and the motivations that drive unconsciousness so one can actually and fully be. It is in our genes that we can feel an experience of total joy and love that gets the name of God, or realization, or anything you like. God is what you have always been and always will be. Of course, there's no telling were we can evolve, if we manage to survive. People who hate themselves have an unconscious motivation toward death which you can see all around you, if you're able to.




 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
apoppin: i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways
----------------

M: First off, I have returned to see if your method has been posted yet. I've always thought you could hurry along proof of whether there's a God by killing yourself.

I do not understand what free will cuts both ways means.

i suggest you try it; you may find no proof either way

Chaos is the Original State of the Universe; your god's Ordered Mind organized part of Chaos but made the error of allowing "Free Will" to conflict with his own Giant Ego. He is also constrained by his own rules and prophecies. Very limited for an "unchangeable purpose" - we will see him go back into Chaos defeated - again.
Also, no one apparently understands that there CAN be a "method to 'disprove the impossible' - let alone watch me attempt lay it out for them


===============

a: especially any 'self-hate' which i reject and eschew as merely pain to get you somewhere.

M: Self awareness and self analysis, psychoanalysis, and the data one acquires there can't be had without doing such work. An Einstein in the area of self analysis who discovers some deep and ancient truth couldn't tell a soul about it. The blind cannot see. The inexperienced can't have experience. Wisdom and insight can't be given away. They take events and time. The finger pointing at the moon isn't the moon. You can say anything you like, but you can't tell a wise man his wisdom is false. He knows what you do not and he knows that he knows.
Agreed - for someone that is really limited like your own self-limited blind wise men; otoh, a Chaos magician might quickly realize that it is also "his will" to discover and it is inside him to easily find and to work with if he so chooses
================
a: You mistake his posts; he loves himself and his own butt about as well as i do; we just disagree about "god"
in contrast to his personal "faith", i just believe His creator - his god - is insane .. absolute power corrupts absolutely

M: If by my own butt you mean my attachment to my phony ego, I would agree. If you mean the vast joy I have glimpsed, well no. Absolute power corrupts the corruptible. As an absolute power and and its lover we found the beloved and ourselves to be one. There was only one and nothing to corrupt. There is nothing but love and no corruption need apply. No room, you see.

Both actually. The "vast joy" you have glimpsed is an empty illusion of the Ordered Mind and it attracts you; his Own Sons - 1/3rd rebelled - and work actively against Him and Purpose; only Michael understands and is in heart-harmony with his father from knowledge. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely and your god is corrupted.
------------------

God is not a bearded weirdo, but I have to be careful. I happen to have a beard and am pretty weird. But I see it like this, as an ego who talks:

Humans evolved as the human chimp, an animal with an animal nature. I am a banana eater. In the banana is a universe of joy. I like to be tickled and smell my behind. I like to swing from trees. I love to hoot and shout and throw sticks at leopards. I am perfect bliss, a being of amazing gifts. I am all that I am conscious of, the universe and I are one. No thoughts, no opinions, no feelings that I am bad. In my perfection, I am and what I am is the total range of what is my consciousness. There are no psychological barriers, no assumptions, no identifications that divide me into this and that self. I am whole and complete, a total full human chimp.

But along came language and I learned to understand speech, and I was told I was no good. I was told I would have no bananas if I didn't act thus and so, a thus and so that was totally different every time. I learned through luggage that I didn't measure up, that my poop stunk, that my behavior disturbed others, that I am bad, the worst in the world, actually, and the pain of that was more than I could bear. I became the conformist, dead Little monkey that was demanded of me. I would have died if I retained consciously all the pain of being unloved. I became the champion of all sheep chimps every were, the perfect upright monkey. I took on all manner of different me. I am a Democrat, an American, a Giant's fan, a Christian, and on and on, anything that offers some love.

But in this vast world of sleeping chimps I thing occasionally one awakens, perhaps with the help of those who already are. I think I've seen a couple and this is what I hear them say.

Don't trust what I hear, because I'm deaf like you, but anyway:

God exists because he is the projection of human potential, the original face of man, that which we can become when the false selves die. They can die by yoga or by being a monk or laying on a bed of nails. They can die in all manner of ways but they rarely do. The motivation not to experience the absolute pain a human without any emotional armor, like we were as children, is the maximum pain a being can experience. We don't want to do that again or know, remember, that we did.

God is a realization that comes with the experience of a mental state, the state of original psychic unity, the rooting up of the unconscious and the motivations that drive unconsciousness so one can actually and fully be. It is in our genes that we can feel an experience of total joy and love that gets the name of God, or realization, or anything you like. God is what you have always been and always will be. Of course, there's no telling were we can evolve, if we manage to survive. People who hate themselves have an unconscious motivation toward death which you can see all around you, if you're able to.
Lots of words .. i have a beard too - but i shave it off every morning. i understand evolution and i direct my own. You see part of it but i have the ToE written on my soul and overwritten also by Chaos.
Your God is an abject failure, his purpose is in disarray abd about to be turned against him; he is insane and he too will return to Chaos to attempt to "make everything new" .. again.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,860
6,783
126
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
apoppin: i have found the same god you did, he even knows me and i him, and yet i reject him - for the same reasons you accept him

Free will cuts both ways
----------------

M: First off, I have returned to see if your method has been posted yet. I've always thought you could hurry along proof of whether there's a God by killing yourself.

I do not understand what free will cuts both ways means.

i suggest you try it; you may find no proof either way

Chaos is the Original State of the Universe; your god's Ordered Mind organized part of Chaos but made the error of allowing "Free Will" to conflict with his own Giant Ego. He is also constrained by his own rules and prophecies. Very limited for an "unchangeable purpose" - we will see him go back into Chaos defeated - again.
Also, no one apparently understands that there CAN be a "method to 'disprove the impossible' - let alone watch me attempt lay it out for them


===============

a: especially any 'self-hate' which i reject and eschew as merely pain to get you somewhere.

M: Self awareness and self analysis, psychoanalysis, and the data one acquires there can't be had without doing such work. An Einstein in the area of self analysis who discovers some deep and ancient truth couldn't tell a soul about it. The blind cannot see. The inexperienced can't have experience. Wisdom and insight can't be given away. They take events and time. The finger pointing at the moon isn't the moon. You can say anything you like, but you can't tell a wise man his wisdom is false. He knows what you do not and he knows that he knows.
Agreed - for someone that is really limited like your own self-limited blind wise men; otoh, a Chaos magician might quickly realize that it is also "his will" to discover and it is inside him to easily find and to work with if he so chooses
================
a: You mistake his posts; he loves himself and his own butt about as well as i do; we just disagree about "god"
in contrast to his personal "faith", i just believe His creator - his god - is insane .. absolute power corrupts absolutely

M: If by my own butt you mean my attachment to my phony ego, I would agree. If you mean the vast joy I have glimpsed, well no. Absolute power corrupts the corruptible. As an absolute power and and its lover we found the beloved and ourselves to be one. There was only one and nothing to corrupt. There is nothing but love and no corruption need apply. No room, you see.

Both actually. The "vast joy" you have glimpsed is an empty illusion of the Ordered Mind and it attracts you; his Own Sons - 1/3rd rebelled - and work actively against Him and Purpose; only Michael understands and is in heart-harmony with his father from knowledge. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely and your god is corrupted.
------------------

God is not a bearded weirdo, but I have to be careful. I happen to have a beard and am pretty weird. But I see it like this, as an ego who talks:

Humans evolved as the human chimp, an animal with an animal nature. I am a banana eater. In the banana is a universe of joy. I like to be tickled and smell my behind. I like to swing from trees. I love to hoot and shout and throw sticks at leopards. I am perfect bliss, a being of amazing gifts. I am all that I am conscious of, the universe and I are one. No thoughts, no opinions, no feelings that I am bad. In my perfection, I am and what I am is the total range of what is my consciousness. There are no psychological barriers, no assumptions, no identifications that divide me into this and that self. I am whole and complete, a total full human chimp.

But along came language and I learned to understand speech, and I was told I was no good. I was told I would have no bananas if I didn't act thus and so, a thus and so that was totally different every time. I learned through luggage that I didn't measure up, that my poop stunk, that my behavior disturbed others, that I am bad, the worst in the world, actually, and the pain of that was more than I could bear. I became the conformist, dead Little monkey that was demanded of me. I would have died if I retained consciously all the pain of being unloved. I became the champion of all sheep chimps every were, the perfect upright monkey. I took on all manner of different me. I am a Democrat, an American, a Giant's fan, a Christian, and on and on, anything that offers some love.

But in this vast world of sleeping chimps I thing occasionally one awakens, perhaps with the help of those who already are. I think I've seen a couple and this is what I hear them say.

Don't trust what I hear, because I'm deaf like you, but anyway:

God exists because he is the projection of human potential, the original face of man, that which we can become when the false selves die. They can die by yoga or by being a monk or laying on a bed of nails. They can die in all manner of ways but they rarely do. The motivation not to experience the absolute pain a human without any emotional armor, like we were as children, is the maximum pain a being can experience. We don't want to do that again or know, remember, that we did.

God is a realization that comes with the experience of a mental state, the state of original psychic unity, the rooting up of the unconscious and the motivations that drive unconsciousness so one can actually and fully be. It is in our genes that we can feel an experience of total joy and love that gets the name of God, or realization, or anything you like. God is what you have always been and always will be. Of course, there's no telling were we can evolve, if we manage to survive. People who hate themselves have an unconscious motivation toward death which you can see all around you, if you're able to.
Lots of words .. i have a beard too - but i shave it off every morning. i understand evolution and i direct my own. You see part of it but i have the ToE written on my soul and overwritten also by Chaos.
Your God is an abject failure, his purpose is in disarray abd about to be turned against him; he is insane and he too will return to Chaos to attempt to "make everything new" .. again.

In a state of consciousness there is no time. Everything is new. And what you call Chaos is Will. Everything is as it should be and perfect.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
In a state of consciousness there is no time. Everything is new. And what you call Chaos is Will. Everything is as it should be and perfect.

Chaos is the Void - the Limitless Unordered Light that exists alongside the Darkness of Night; The Mystery of Chaos also includes the Feminine Trinity and the Tetragrammaton
--The Abyss is the great gulf or void between the phenomenal world of manifestation and its noumenal source - the gap between real/ideal and unreal/actual - with the Abyss being thus the great storehouse of Phenomena and is the source of all impressions.
--In the Abyss all things exist but are without any possible meaning for they lack the substrate of spiritual Reality. Yours are appearances without Law although they appear to "be" law. They are thus *Insane Delusions* and you do indeed have an glimpse of them and declare them wrongly to be "perfect'

rose.gif

Do not confuse the related term in Buddhism - Shunyata: the Void. This void is sometimes misunderstood as nullity although you might still see it as the will of your Father and your union with him. This is inaccurate: the Void is already a fullness which cannot be further increased. Such a void is termed a Plenum Void - or in Kabbalistic terms, Ain Soph Aur.

What you call Will is unnaturally imposed on Chaos by a Ordered Mind and your Father is no longer in harmony

"in the Beginning, god created the heavens and the earth .. and there was darkness... and god proceeded to say "let light come to be""
There are attempts to interpret Chaos, but Chaos is Peace - the Blackness preceding the beginning of light. This is the first 3 verses of Genesis.

So we have Chaos and Eternity - apparent contradictions in terms. Eventually, when the balances are returned to equal and everything is matched exactly, then Chaos returns
--- peace .. and darkness
 

chosenbygrace

Junior Member
Jan 17, 2014
1
0
0
eternian.wordpress.com
One of core logical flaws with intelligent design theory is that while it implicitly claims that complex organic systems cannot arise from natural causality and that therefore an "intelligence" directed evolution, it completely fails to explain how the alleged intelligence came into being or where it came from; it just passes the buck. (It's a rehash of the logical fallacy of the First Cause argument, dressed up as being a self-proclaimed "intelligent" theory.)

Oh God this again? Why do ignorants like you never look up your stupid arguments? Moron:

1. You lacked the intelligence to apply your own argument to your own theory: what caused the supposed big magic man making explosion (a massive over simplification of course)? Then moron: what caused what caused that, etc. x infinity. Why do ignorants like yourself not see such an obvious flaw in your own anti-God babble? So your argument comes to a contradictory hypocritical nothing. If ignorants like you looked up your endless arguments against God, you'd see there are already logical answers to them on the net, but you don't care to research, people like you just want to toss your feelings around to show how smart you are, and to what end? Did you get famous from this post, did you meet your dream husband or wife? So stupid. So, clearly NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS A CAUSE, THE ONE THING THAT DOES NOT, WOULD BE GOD. Now why then, would the magic life and emotion and soul making bomb FROM NOTHING, NOT<---- NOT<----, ONE MORE TIME, NOT<----- REQUIRE A CAUSE? So your first argument falls flat and never explodes. Now should I read the rest of your opinion? I will since your rant was short, but the apostle Paul, whom God spoke through, said, "avoid arguments of ignorance", so I'm not getting deep into the obvious, especially being that I've refuted 500+ arguments against the Bible and have heard all this stupidity before.

"Does the new movie, Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed, explain where this transcendental being responsible for the intelligent design came from?"

See above. Your argument, besides a fallacy of throwing the baby out with the bathwater (cuz u aren't explained every little detail --the movie would never end moron) and a fallacy of misdirection (diverting peoples' attention away from the facts in the movie that show there's no magical fossil columns or any and evidence for evolution and plenty against it and the Big Bang, let alone no evidence for it period) is also is a fallacy called BEGGING THE QUESTION, meaning it has no point. Your using the same argument that atheists who "love" "science" use to attack Christians, true or false ones to defend THEIR VERSION of science "we're still learning, we don't have all the answers yet, just because we don't know such and such doesn't mean (relativity/evolution/the big bang/heliocentrism/global warming etc./why liberalism is thee way of life) isn't true, and it's self correcting". But oh, if a Christian can't explain in TEN SECONDS as one atheist moron in a chatroom gave me whatever the atheist or anti-Christian "wants to know" (uh huh, if you did you'd research sincerely yourself) then the atheist mocks, makes a tirade, ignores, blocks, repeats some nonsense, literally, or says, "I don't care" or "you're ranting".

"Does it explain how an omnipotent, omniscient being--surely something far, far more complex than human life on this earth--could just exist or come into existence on its own."

You're ranting redundantly.

"Does it explain why, how if it's invalid to believe that evolution occurred naturally, why it's valid to believe that a deity existed and created everything without having to explain where the deity came from?"

You're ranting redundantly.

"I can definitely understand why folks peddling religion"

Fallacy: ad hominem attack via stereotype: you've lumped in billions (many billions) of people as all sellers of something cheap (and it's also bigoted as it pretends atheists never do the same, and misdirects people from the super obvious: history: it wasn't atheists that came up with all the wonderful inventions in the world that spurred on more, and allowed Darwin to come up with his nonsense, to peddle his nonsense, but it was a religion-driven world that did. Even atheist Tesla copied the work of others and was raised by a religious dad. He didn't "evolve" in a religious vacuum, and Tesla recognized the value at least of religion.

"under the dishonest guise of reason might be "expelled" from the academic debate"

That's what you're doing now as I've pointed out blind hypocrite. And you've made another ad hominem attack and begging the question fallacy with that line: what is your evidence it's under a dishonest guise? A guise for what? What is Ben's religion? Did he peddle Judaism or Christianity? Stupid libeler. You, under the guise of making an intelligent argument, are peddling atheism and a false science. You've not made any scientific arguments or intelligent ones, but have rehashed what is already all over the net and in libraries. You and millions of other atheists think you're Christopher Columbuses of religion, yet you don't bother studying. The "island" is already occupied you idiots, learn something from the natives and stop seeing them as dupes to rape and extort and use as slaves to mine things for you.

"for failure to prove the existence of the intelligent designer and to explain its origins."

Huh? Who failed whatsit where doing what? HUH? Whatever you said.

"They're basically advocating religious belief"

See above. And who is "they"? Is this a cult movie? It's people with different beliefs and some are atheists or agnostic, those in the steady state theory of the universe at least.

"under the implicit guise of reason."

And you've ranted. ignorants like you think if you use phrases like that that sound high and wise that you've said something implicitly reasonable, and must therefore know what you're talking about, exactly what that movie pointed out is not always the case. It's not the fancy talkers or people who see a book that says, "Words You Should Know" who then read it and use those words like they've become an expert in something that know what they are talking about, but the people who do sincere patient research, who often suffer to learn something, like a scientist who spends long hours to find the right formula for something doing calculations to no end, ignoring the nonsense of evolution, big bangism and relativity, realizing it has nothing to do with and will never help him come up with whatever he's trying to invent, and also those who have had their spiritual eyes opened by God, especially to understand how to be forgiven of their sins (and it's not as the world teaches, the endless cults and gargantuan one of Catholicism, so large that it is "the world" - you can't earn salvation from Hell.)

Take my "rant" to heart, because it's no rant.

Too bad I couldn't answer you soon after you made your rant, I might have been able to block the damage it no doubt did. God is always on time anyways.

- a scholar of logical fallacies and religion and certain parts of history and science researcher, unlike you.
 
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