Expelled for plagiarizing your own work?

[Lithium381]

sounds BS that you forfeit all rights, but whatever

 

[LongCoolMother]

he shouldnt be expelled but i do think it was wrong to turn in the same paper again. the teacher asked them do complete and assignment, and he should complete it. if he already did, then he should just do it again differently.

 

[kazamobah]

Originally posted by: RMSistight
How can it be plagiarism if it's his own damn work? This should be media attention =D

I think this is a pretty standard policy. In HS it was not allowed and it is also not allowed at my college.

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: Lithium381
sounds BS that you forfeit all rights, but whatever

I'll be looking into this further - and presenting documentation of my legal ownership of some of my work dated long before it was turned in and telling them to prove that they own a damn thing, such as a contract that my parents or I signed. And when they can't produce it, I'll politely ask them to reevaluate their policies or there will be an ever-increasing chance of their being taken to court when they claim ownership of a paper that I turned in and someone else copied (Or I turned in again) - they can still, of course, expel said other student, but if they so much as whisper a word about 'their' copyright, which was the first thing out of their mouths when they were talking to my class following this incident (Standard procedure crap - telling us that ALL of our work will be evaluated from now on instead of random checks because we're 'closely affiliated' with him), they will be quickly taken to court to do battle - and I won't even need a lawyer.

I'd put money on them never thinking that a High School student would have the sense (or knowledge) to staple together a bunch of writings and send them to the USCO with $30 (Or whatever the fee is now) attached.

 

[huesmann]

Originally posted by: Renob
Back in High School I used to turn in old Black Sabbath songs as poetry I had written, always got an A on those papers.😀

LMAO!

 

[phatj]

what school do u go to ??? geez we don't even have an academic honesty board, let alone software that will scan our work history!

 

[huesmann]

Plagiarism:

To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.
To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).

If it's his own work, it's NOT plagiarism, and he has a valid case if that's the offense he's being charged with. Even if he's being charged with academic dishonesty, he's got a case. He wrote it, it's his work, no matter what the board says. I think the courts would agree with him. If it was required that all work be new work, it should have been specified.

 

[Trevelyan]

Listen guys... since his ENGLISH teacher is behind him, it's not like it wasn't OK for him to do it.

 

[Amorphus]

It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

 

[huesmann]

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: huesmann

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

Fine, but he still turned in something that had already been graded, except he editted it. Meaning, he saw what the teacher pointed out he did wrong, corrected it, and turned it back in...that could be considered cheating.

 

[Kenazo]

on another note, it is also a no no to quote a previous paper you wrote, unless u're an MA or Ph.D, even if you notate it properly. It is against the rules at most universities (and probably high schools) to quote an undergrad in most instances. (yes, i'm sure exceptions to this rule do occur)

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: huesmann

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

Fine, but he still turned in something that had already been graded, except he editted it. Meaning, he saw what the teacher pointed out he did wrong, corrected it, and turned it back in...that could be considered cheating.

Except they aren't after him on that count - they specifically cited plagiarism. They can hang him on cheating for all I care - but plagiarism is a VERY serious charge that, as far as I can see, he cannot possibly be guilty of under these circumstances.

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
on another note, it is also a no no to quote a previous paper you wrote, unless u're an MA or Ph.D, even if you notate it properly. It is against the rules at most universities (and probably high schools) to quote an undergrad in most instances. (yes, i'm sure exceptions to this rule do occur)

But since you wrote it, assuming that it's your idea, you're free to restate it. Or should be, at any rate, unless there actually IS an agreement between student and school regarding intellectual property ownership. This I can see on a university level, but no high school I've ever heard of actually has this kind of agreement (Despite claims)

 

To be candid, I should state that whether or not this is plagiarism is irrelevant as far school policies, because it is only a play on semantics. The problem is that what he did still qualifies as academic dishonesty, which could result in severe punishment! Personally, I think it's crap, since it never hurts to work on improving a material. I remember some of our teachers permitted us to repeat our work, and we would even get new credits. I don't it's academically unproductive, because you're working on improving a piece you were told was poor! Unless this was a material he performed highly in . . . then yes it would seem unproductive, but come on. . . .

"They're his work. Therefore, it's not an act of plagiarism unless somewhere along the line, intellectual property rights were forfeited or transferred. They, uh, weren't. Getting credit twice is another issue entirely - and while it may be considered wrong (I don't) - it sure as hell isn't plagiarism."

I was about to say the same thing, except I realised there's a twist to it! Technically, it is his work, but legally I'm afraid it's not necessarily his.

Once it's submitted to the school, it becomes the intellectual property of the school, when you think of it from a legal point of view. I can't remember what entity in particular, but generally many organisations have you sign contracts that states that certain, if not all, materials submitted to them become properties of the organisations. So the schools technically own what you submit, but generally they don't put it into effect.

Think of work done by a student and a professor . . . if the student with hardly much assistance or contribution from the professor does an extraordinary work that gets recognised nationally, the professor gets the credit anyway as far as legal documentation!

How much then high school? The students are children (underage, that is). Their legal rights are limited. Teachers exert more authority, since the mental faculties and intellects of the kids are not considered to be mature. Of course it's the property of the school 'cuz students supposedly depend highly upon what is taught to them and ideas from the teachers, together with books. So legally, it seems the school has an upperhand. The only possible exception I can think of is if the author of the work is a kid confirmed to have extremely high IQ and came up with an idea that could not possibly have been derived from the teachings or help of the teacher (of course if the student chooses to fight it through court). You don't even have to go far: think of child stars . . . their parents legally have control over the earnings of the kids and even what work they accept, in spite of little protection they might have legally.

This school can therefore exert authority and ownership, and on that basis declare the student's work plagiarised. However, most schools do not define it as plagiarism. It qualifies as academic dishonesty under the subcategory of cheating. Check out this Canadian site (same idea as schools here), for instance: Academic Dishonesty. But again, at the end it's irrelevant, since it still qualifies as academic dishonesty, unless plagiarism significantly affects what level of punishment he qualifies for on a list of options.

 

[ReiAyanami]

by RIAA standards, if he used any of the letters "A B C... X Y Z" then that is plagiarism, because other people used the exact same letters in different contexts, therefore that particular student is a terrorist and should be planted with a really sharp pencil sharpener then sent to Guantanamo Bay.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: EyeMWing

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: huesmann

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

Fine, but he still turned in something that had already been graded, except he editted it. Meaning, he saw what the teacher pointed out he did wrong, corrected it, and turned it back in...that could be considered cheating.

Except they aren't after him on that count - they specifically cited plagiarism. They can hang him on cheating for all I care - but plagiarism is a VERY serious charge that, as far as I can see, he cannot possibly be guilty of under these circumstances.

I never said he plagiarized. In fact, I stated that he shouldn't be expelled. However, I don't believe he should get off scott free.

 

[ScottyB]

Well once a person puts a thought onto paper it is copywritten. The school can't claim ownership unless they have a clause that was signed stating that all intellectually property produced for said school is then owned by the school.

 

[crystal]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: huesmann

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

Fine, but he still turned in something that had already been graded, except he editted it. Meaning, he saw what the teacher pointed out he did wrong, corrected it, and turned it back in...that could be considered cheating.

Do you know what that call in the real world, revision or edition.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

Bad analogy. In that case you are assuming that the "new" book was specified as needing to be different from Walden. If Thoreau was asked to publish a book identical in specification to Walden in a country in which Walden had not been released and it was there that Thoreay sent his revised "Nedlaw", then he would indeed get (and thoroughly deserve) "kudos".

ZV

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: luvly

Snip
How much then high school? The students are children (underage, that is). Their legal rights are limited. Teachers exert more authority, since the mental faculties and intellects of the kids are not considered to be mature. Of course it's the property of the school 'cuz students supposedly depend highly upon what is taught to them and ideas from the teachers, together with books. So legally, it seems the school has an upperhand. The only possible exception I can think of is if the author of the work is a kid confirmed to have extremely high IQ and came up with an idea that could not possibly have been derived from the teachings or help of the teacher (of course if the student chooses to fight it through court). You don't even have to go far: think of children stars . . . their parents legally have control over the earning of the kids and even what work they accept, in spite of little protection they might have legally.

This school can therefore exert authority and ownership, and on that basis declare the student's work plagiarised. Snip

So what if I turned in a legally copywritten work - US Copyright office has documentation, payment, and it's all legit. I have this interesting habit of collecting all my written work from a year and sending it to the government around October. Been doing that for the past few years. So as far as the government is concerned - I am the legal owner. And no, they didn't have any problem at all registering anything to a minor.

My english teachers have all found it entertaining that I put a (c) at the end of my work - a few have seen the certification (And were indeed highly confused by the idea of a minor receiving due process from the government)

I've always made it a point to exclude from my compilations anything that I received so much as spelling assistance from anyone else, thus it being, in it's entirety, my own work (Except, of course, where properly cited). But I definitely do not like the idea of them at all thinking that they own rights to my work, and I'm definitely willing to do battle over it.

 

[Shawn]

I'd get a lawyer ASAP.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: luvly
I was about to say the same thing, except I realised there's a twist to it! Technically, it is his work, but legally I'm afraid it's not necessarily his.

Once it's submitted to the school, it becomes the intellectual property of the school, when you think of it from a legal point of view. I can't remember what entity in particular, but generally many organisations have you sign contracts that states that certain, if not all, materials submitted to them become properties of the organisations. So the schools technically own what you submit, but generally they don't put it into effect.

Think of work done by a student and a professor . . . if the student with hardly much assistance or contribution from the professor does an extraordinary work that gets recognised nationally, the professor gets the credit anyway as far as legal documentation!

All of your examples involve the writer signing an agreement to relinquish their copyright. This student has done nothing of the sort. Again, you argue assuming that all law is written in stone. Poor position. There are compelling legal arguments here and it is to be incredibly simple to assume that if taken to court the ruling is predetermined. You will be an incredibly ineffective lawyer if you assume every time that the court's previous opinion cannot be changed.

ZV

 

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by: luvly
To be candid, I should state that whether or not this is plagiarism is irrelevant as far school policies, because it is only a play on semantics. The problem is that what he did still qualifies as academic dishonesty, which could result in severe punishment! Personally, I think it's crap, since it never hurts to work on improving a material. I remember some of our teachers permitted us to repeat our work, and we would even get new credits. I don't it's academically unproductive, because you're working on improving a piece you were told was poor! Unless this was a material he performed highly in . . . then yes it would seem unproductive, but come on. . . .

"They're his work. Therefore, it's not an act of plagiarism unless somewhere along the line, intellectual property rights were forfeited or transferred. They, uh, weren't. Getting credit twice is another issue entirely - and while it may be considered wrong (I don't) - it sure as hell isn't plagiarism."

I was about to say the same thing, except I realised there's a twist to it! Technically, it is his work, but legally I'm afraid it's not necessarily his.

Once it's submitted to the school, it becomes the intellectual property of the school, when you think of it from a legal point of view. I can't remember what entity in particular, but generally many organisations have you sign contracts that states that certain, if not all, materials submitted to them become properties of the organisations. So the schools technically own what you submit, but generally they don't put it into effect.

Think of work done by a student and a professor . . . if the student with hardly much assistance or contribution from the professor does an extraordinary work that gets recognised nationally, the professor gets the credit anyway as far as legal documentation! And it is the property of the school!

How much then high school? The students are children (underage, that is). Their legal rights are limited. Teachers exert more authority, since the mental faculties and intellects of the kids are not considered to be mature. Of course it's the property of the school 'cuz students supposedly depend highly upon what is taught to them and ideas from the teachers, together with books. So legally, it seems the school has an upperhand. The only possible exception I can think of is if the author of the work is a kid confirmed to have extremely high IQ and came up with an idea that could not possibly have been derived from the teachings or help of the teacher (of course if the student chooses to fight it through court). You don't even have to go far: think of children stars . . . their parents legally have control over the earning of the kids and even what work they accept, in spite of little protection they might have legally.

This school can therefore exert authority and ownership, and on that basis declare the student's work plagiarised. However, most schools do not define it as plagiarism. It qualifies as academic dishonesty under the subcategory of cheating. Check out this Canadian site (same idea as schools here), for instance: Academic Dishonesty. But again, at the end it's irrelevant, since it still qualifies as academic dishonesty, unless plagiarism significantly affects what level of punishment in the list of options.

Unless you specifically sign away your rights you still have them. And sense almost everyone in high school is a minor they cannot, AFAIK, sign anything that is legally binding w/o also the signature of a parent or legal guardian. Speaking of legal guardians... your mention of child stars and their parents is a poor example because teachers are not the legal guardians of their students. And when you do research under someone, as part of a team for example, you probably sign a form waving your rights to anything you discover/find/come up with, etc., and agreeing that that IP belongs to whomever you are working for. That's why they have you sign those things because, by default, you own your original ideas. You must specificly surrender those rights in order to lose them.


Lethal

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: crystal

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: huesmann

Originally posted by: Amorphus
It's not plagiarism, per se, but it's still academically dishonest, as he was asked to write an essay, as opposed to regurgitating it. If Thoreau revised a copy of Walden, and published it as, say, Nedlaw, he wouldn't get any kudos for creating a new work.

No, but in your example he's taking the work of another and using it. This kid is using his own fcuking work.

Fine, but he still turned in something that had already been graded, except he editted it. Meaning, he saw what the teacher pointed out he did wrong, corrected it, and turned it back in...that could be considered cheating.

Do you know what that call in the real world, revision or edition.

Sorry, bud. High school is nothing like the real world. You should know that. Try teaching a high school course that requires paper writing, and then letting all your students turn in papers they wrote the year before. What do they learn? Nothing. Revisions only work before a final draft is due. Teaching is much different than bossing.