Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

[IronWing]

So what makes you think that Jesus rasing the dead was any more credible in that society than faith-healings are in ours?

The point I'm trying to convey here is that too many of you are trying to inject what YOU would have done had you been under Roman rule 2000 something years ago during the rise of a small, Jewish sect porporting that their founder can perfrom miracles.

You would have done what you do today when people make miraculous claims...write them off as nonsense.

This generation betrays itself even more -- we try to explain away "non-scientific" claims using natural explantions, or deny them as exaggerated, or deny them altogether.

How much more so would contempoaries of Jesus who were non-Christian, do the exact same thing while convicing others to do that as well?

NOTE: I am not saying this is what happened because I do not know this to be true, but I'm just making a case as to other possiblities within the context of the time he lived.

If I understand your point, you are saying that we have no non-Christian sources to consult concerning the existence of a historical Jesus because the non-Christians blew off the reports of miracles and therefore didn't see anything worth recording. Do I understand your point correctly?

 

[Retro Rob]

If I understand your point, you are saying that we have no non-Christian sources to consult concerning the existence of a historical Jesus because the non-Christians blew off the reports of miracles and therefore didn't see anything worth recording. Do I understand your point correctly?

Um, no.

NOTE: I am not saying this is what happened because I do not know this to be true, but I'm just making a case as to other possiblities within the context of the time he lived

..and I was speaking about miracles, specifically.

 

[Texashiker]

Jesus also never condemned homosexuality.

The New Testament contains numerous implicit endorsements of slavery, such as telling slaves to be obedient to their masters, etc.

Jesus himself never endorsed slavery.

My parents also told me a tooth fairy put a few quarters or a dollar under my pillow when I lost a tooth when I was that age. When I got older my dad also told me he heard of a stripper in Mexico that can take a roll of quarters and drop them out of her sniz one at a time. Does that mean it is true?

<snip>

Same ole atheist arguments never cease to amaze me. Somehow you were able to tell the difference between a story and history?

You must live a sad live never believing anything without first hand witness accounts, and then those witnesses are up to 70% wrong.

The truth is you will listen to your dad tell you a story about your grandparents, but you will reject that same style of reporting from Josephus?

Those other people you mentioned as being GODs. When they come back from the dead after 3 days, then get back with me.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Show me a credible faith healing and I will change my tune. There is a reason 99% of us seek modern medical treatment when we have an ailment or injury, and don't just pray on it or look to faith healers (funny how believers are in no hurry to get to heaven, btw).

In the last 2000 years or so, prayer has been a constant. We prayed for god's intervention for diseases and injuries in years past, even today many people pray in addition to seeking modern medical treatment.

But prayer didn't deliver. We still died and had a much shorter longevity than today. Only as medical science has marched forward has our ability to understand and fight disease and injury improved. It is like praying really didn't do anything at all, only with more medical knowledge and improving techniques created from that knowledge have we been able to actually do something about many of these medical issues.

Food for thought.

I understand your point, but don't agree. I can't see how such a miracle worker would not have some mention by his contemporaries. Even David Blaine can do that much, and we all accept that he's an illusionist, not a supreme being. I fail to see how there is no mention, other than the bible, of an exodus or christ rising from the dead or raising someone else from the dead.

I understand that not having this contemporary evidence doesn't prove anything. But, it is one more bit of the whole picture, and the bible routinely seems to come out on the short side of things.

 

[IronWing]

Those other people you mentioned as being GODs. When they come back from the dead after 3 days, then get back with me.

Jesus is just one more bird in the gaggle of folks I don't think are gods. You make no sense.

 

[Texashiker]

Show me a credible faith healing and I will change my tune.

In other words, GOD should bow down, kiss your ass, and then you will believe?

Does not work that way.

 

[IronWing]

In other words, GOD should bow down, kiss your ass, and then you will believe?

Does not work that way.

Why not?

 

[Texashiker]

Why not?

We are getting way off topic, thats why.


How do I know Jesus was a real person?

Because the truth hurts. Jesus lived, he spoke the truth, and that truth hurts the hearts of those who are full of hate.

Jesus was so much more than just a person. He was a spokesman for the future of humanity.

There is no future in hate, anger and greed.

The only future humanity has is through the teachings of Christ, which is love, compassion and mercy.

Go ahead and destroy humanities faith in Christ, what will you replace his teachings with? Are atheist group going to setup charity hospitals. How about religious based food banks?

 

[IronWing]

We are getting way off topic, thats why.


How do I know Jesus was a real person?

Because the truth hurts. Jesus lived, he spoke the truth, and that truth hurts the hearts of those who are full of hate.

Jesus was so much more than just a person. He was a spokesman for the future of humanity.

There is no future in hate, anger and greed.

The only future humanity has is through the teachings of Christ, which is love, compassion and mercy.

Go ahead and destroy humanities faith in Christ, what will you replace his teachings with? Are atheist group going to setup charity hospitals. How about religious based food banks?

It sounds like you made a teddy bear and decided to name it Jesus because you liked the name.

 

[kage69]

There is no question whether or not Jesus existed.

For the gullible and indoctrinated anyway, which makes you a "double dipper" I suppose, but for those freethinkers who don't abuse terms like facts, truth, and proof it turns out there's a mountain of questions regarding the origins of the guy you call jesus.

If you can figure out why you dismiss Apollonious of Tyana, you'll have discovered why others dismiss your jesus. Read up on Simeon bar Kochba, or the histories around Krishna, Osiris, Mythra and Zarathustra. If you think jesus or his story was unique, well, you're wrong.

Horrifies you to think you may have been duped, right? Question is now, do you put your head in a book, or in a hole in the ground?

 

[Texashiker]

It sounds like you made a teddy bear and decided to name it Jesus because you liked the name.

Christus health spends more than $858,900 a day in community benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHRISTUS_Health


Go ahead and disprove the existence of Christ. Who is going to step up and provide for the needy?

Surely some atheist group would love to provide healthcare to underserved areas?

 

[Texashiker]

For the gullible and indoctrinated anyway, which makes you a "double dipper" I suppose, but for those freethinkers who don't abuse terms like facts, truth, and proof it turns out there's a mountain of questions regarding the origins of the guy you call jesus.

Are you willing to step up and take the place of Christian groups who provide services to the needy?

You choose to disregard Jesus because you simply choose not to believe.

Facts have been presented, and you disregard them.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Jesus himself never endorsed slavery.

Let's say you found out someone you knew of, say a neighbor down the road, owned other humans against their will for forced labor and sex, we'll call those people 'slaves'. He bought them from Mexico (as sanctioned in the bible). If your response was to tell your circle of friends that those slaves need to heed their master and behave, and you never once spoke out against the ownership of other people against their will, are you condemning his actions as a slave owner? Or are you at the very least condoning his actions?

Jesus told slaves to behave and do what their masters told them.

Same ole atheist arguments never cease to amaze me. Somehow you were able to tell the difference between a story and history?

You must live a sad live never believing anything without first hand witness accounts, and then those witnesses are up to 70% wrong.

The truth is you will listen to your dad tell you a story about your grandparents, but you will reject that same style of reporting from Josephus?

Those other people you mentioned as being GODs. When they come back from the dead after 3 days, then get back with me.

What part of my argument amazed you? How is the bible a record of history any more than it is a collection of stories? Because you are emotionally invested in those stories and really want them to be true? That doesn't make it so, sorry, reality is a bitch. You have absolutely no evidence of jesus actually coming back from the dead. All you have is the bible which appears to have many errors in other parts, so it isn't unwise to be skeptical of the stories of the miraculous happenings it claims.

Also, the christian faithful are unable to show any reason why their god and beliefs are special, but the literally thousands of other religions and deities are not to be believed in. Prove to me hinduism, islam, druidism, thor, zeus, etc. are all not real. Show me how there is any separation between your religion and those, something that makes christianity special and you so willing to defend it as true beyond simply being quite popular in our time in history and our part of the world.

 

[Retro Rob]

Show me a credible faith healing and I will change my tune. There is a reason 99% of us seek modern medical treatment when we have an ailment or injury, and don't just pray on it or look to faith healers (funny how believers are in no hurry to get to heaven, btw).

In the last 2000 years or so, prayer has been a constant. We prayed for god's intervention for diseases and injuries in years past, even today many people pray in addition to seeking modern medical treatment.

But prayer didn't deliver. We still died and had a much shorter longevity than today. Only as medical science has marched forward has our ability to understand and fight disease and injury improved. It is like praying really didn't do anything at all, only with more medical knowledge and improving techniques created from that knowledge have we been able to actually do something about many of these medical issues.

Food for thought.

I understand your point, but don't agree. I can't see how such a miracle worker would not have some mention by his contemporaries. Even David Blaine can do that much, and we all accept that he's an illusionist, not a supreme being. I fail to see how there is no mention, other than the bible, of an exodus or christ rising from the dead or raising someone else from the dead.

I understand that not having this contemporary evidence doesn't prove anything. But, it is one more bit of the whole picture, and the bible routinely seems to come out on the short side of things.

Not arguing the merits of prayer or faith healing...just used faith healing to illustrate a point.

Truth is, Jeerusalem was destroyed about 70 ce, no telling what was in there...not an excuse, just a historical fact.

Perhaps the bible will be the only source that we will ever have. I don't know, but whats becoming clear is that no explanation would ever be sufficient.

 

[Texashiker]

How is the bible a record of history any more than it is a collection of stories?

You have not done your own research.

 

[IronWing]

Are you willing to step up and take the place of Christian groups who provide services to the needy?

You choose to disregard Jesus because you simply choose not to believe.

Facts have been presented, and you disregard them.

Are you saying that the only reason folks do good works is because of a belief in an historical Jesus?

 

[Texashiker]

Are you saying that the only reason folks do good works is because of a belief in an historical Jesus?

Show me an atheist group that spends anywhere near what Christian groups spend on charity and you will have your answer.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Christus health spends more than $858,900 a day in community benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHRISTUS_Health


Go ahead and disprove the existence of Christ. Who is going to step up and provide for the needy?

Surely some atheist group would love to provide healthcare to underserved areas?

Are you willing to step up and take the place of Christian groups who provide services to the needy?

You choose to disregard Jesus because you simply choose not to believe.

Facts have been presented, and you disregard them.

Good for them. None of that make jesus real or the son of god. Do you want me to post some non-religious charities? Do you want me to post some charities founded by other religions? Do you want me to take pictures next time I volunteer for something to help my fellow man and show them to you (or actually children last week)?

Doing something for charity is nice and all, but it prove absolutely nothing as far as what is true and what isn't goes.

 

[fskimospy]

Show me an atheist group that spends anywhere near what Christian groups spend on charity and you will have your answer.

It's funny to see all the hate pouring out of you for other groups all while whining about how much Christians are being hated.

You're an ignorant, hateful, bigoted person. I sincerely hope you are able to overcome this someday.

 

[SlowSpyder]

In other words, GOD should bow down, kiss your ass, and then you will believe?

Does not work that way.

Yes. God can kiss my ass...



Then I will believe. ()

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It sounds like you made a teddy bear and decided to name it Jesus because you liked the name.

And he sends him to the finest school in town.


/too obscure?

 

[IronWing]

Yes. God can kiss my ass...



Then I will believe. ()

That's the great thing about gods, they do exactly what you want them to do. Tell Jesus to dance, he dances. Tell him to condemn buggery, he's your johnny-on-the-spot. It's handy to keep a god or two around, they can get you out of a tight spot in a debate.

 

[IronWing]

And he sends him to the finest school in town.


/too obscure?

I was singing while I typed. :awe:

 

[SlowSpyder]

Show me an atheist group that spends anywhere near what Christian groups spend on charity and you will have your answer.

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pellissier20111125

1) Warren Buffett (atheist, donated $40.785 billion to &#8220;health, education, humanitarian causes&#8221

2) Bill & Melinda Gates (atheists, donated $27.602 billion to &#8220;global health and development, education&#8221

3) George Soros (atheist, donated $6.936 billion to &#8220;open and democratic societies&#8221

*edit - Bill Gate should probably not be in this list.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

1) Warren Buffett (atheist, donated $40.785 billion to “health, education, humanitarian causes”)

2) Bill & Melinda Gates (atheists, donated $27.602 billion to “global health and development, education”)

3) George Soros (atheist, donated $6.936 billion to “open and democratic societies”)

So did they make the donations on behalf of atheists or an atheist group? My bet it never crossed their minds when they were donating.