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Existence of the "historical Jesus" increasingly questioned by scholars

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Texashiker said:
Lets use the judicial system as an example.

Christ is accused of never existing. The defense calls in two witnesses, Josephus and the Quran.

As with any witness there is going to be differences in the story, but the central story stays the same. With the Quran and Josephus, both confirm Jesus did exist.

There are subtle differences, such as muslims not believing Christ was crucified. But then we call in historical facts and the Roman history for crucifixion. The Romans crucified a lot of people before and after Christ.

So we can say yes, Jesus existed, and he was probably crucified.
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Where the hell do you get these stupid ideas from? Logic isn't a takeaway menu where you can choose what bits you like and blissfully ignore the ones you don't.
 
eskimospy said:
I would say that for myself the further a story deviates from how we know the world functions, the more evidence it requires. (the whole extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence thing) That Julius Caesar was a good general who conquered a bunch of territory and killed a lot of people? I'd believe that fairly easily. Magical parting of the red sea? Going to need some more backup for that.
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You do realize that the "extraordinary claims" quote is entirely subjective.

Not every person view the claims as "extraordinary". The concept of driving an automobile was extraordinary to some, but not to us.
 
Retro Rob said:
You do realize that the "extraordinary claims" quote is entirely subjective.

Not every person view the claims as "extraordinary". The concept of driving an automobile was extraordinary to some, but not to us.
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So turning water into wine, rising from the dead, parting seas, turning people into pillars of salt, etc. is not "extraordinary"? Even today those would all be "extraordinary"
 
soulcougher73 said:
So turning water into wine, rising from the dead, parting seas, turning people into pillars of salt, etc. is not "extraordinary"? Even today those would all be "extraordinary"
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If God exists, they're expected.

Remember, something is only extraordinary when you don't have the means to accomplish it. It was "extraordinary" for someone the in 1600s living in Australia to talk to someone living in Africa without having to send a letter, raise their voice, or travel there.

Telephones made an extraordinary feat, rather ordinary.

That's what makes the quote highly subjective.
 
Retro Rob said:
If God exists, they're expected.

Remember, something is only extraordinary when you don't have the means to accomplish it. It was "extraordinary" for someone the in 1600s living in Australia to talk to someone living in Africa without having to send a letter, raise their voice, or travel there.

Telephones made an extraordinary feat, rather ordinary.

That's what makes the quote highly subjective.
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Well you say he exists, so lets see some extraordinary stuff. Maybe he died?
 
Retro Rob said:
Because mainstream Christianity says there is a Hell people suffer in, and I had to look into the Bible to see what words they were translating, and "Sheol" and "Hades" doesn't mean a place of fire and torment.
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Well, I'll agree that you may have needed to use the Bible as a tool to verify the claims of Christianity. But, let's say for the sake of argument that you believe there is no afterlife. Then why believe in God in the first place?

I'd be ecstatic if a heaven existed and knew my relatives who are now gone are there and enjoying eternity. I'd love to think that this life is just a stepping stone to something else. Heck, maybe it is. I'm just unsure why you would follow religion if you acknowledge that there is no afterlife. You can make the argument that you agree with the tenets of the religion and how you should treat others, but to me, much of that is common sense and I don't need to sit in church hours every week to learn that.
 
Texashiker said:
And? It was common practice to make copies.
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It was not common practice to make copies. Copies were extremely expensive as most didn't read and write.

Also during many periods of time having these kinds of books or pages was illegal and punishable by death.

For long periods of time people repeated books to each other.

Just like today chances are the dumbass that took the reins to publish 'his ideas' probably wasn't the best listener.
 
Texashiker said:
Historical records are all we have.

We have evidence Jesus existed. That evidence is all we need.
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So if you say it enough times it'll be true?

No, we don't have evidence. What we have are accounts of his life that are written generations after his death and are similar to or identical to other myths.

Jesus is not unique. He's just another rehashed version of other mythological personas that stupid people like you still worship today.
 
IndyColtsFan said:
Well, I'll agree that you may have needed to use the Bible as a tool to verify the claims of Christianity. But, let's say for the sake of argument that you believe there is no afterlife. Then why believe in God in the first place?
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Because I actually love God like a parent, and I don't need promises of Heaven for me feel that way...all I do is look at what I believe are gifts (like being alive) and I feel indebted.

Afterlife? Well, there's no guaranteed that you'll (generic) will make it. Religious people tend to forget that it isn't their choice who makes it to the afterlife -- just because they feel emotionally connected to it, or they strongly feel like they're going, that doesn't mean anything.

I look at it like this: if a person is serving God for a reward, and he is God, then do they really believe that he cannot see that trickery in them?

What if something bad happens in their life? Are they gonna stop worshipping God? If so, they don't love God...they just want a reward.


I'd be ecstatic if a heaven existed and knew my relatives who are now gone are there and enjoying eternity. I'd love to think that this life is just a stepping stone to something else. Heck, maybe it is. I'm just unsure why you would follow religion if you acknowledge that there is no afterlife. You can make the argument that you agree with the tenets of the religion and how you should treat others, but to me, much of that is common sense and I don't need to sit in church hours every week to learn that.
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I didn't say there is no afterlife, but I said that's not the reason why I believe in God.
 
Franz316 said:
I thought this was pretty much common knowledge among religious folks but I guess not. I'm sure the fact the gospels were neither written by those apostles nor anywhere near the time of Jesus would cause some people to think twice. If you look at the history of Christianity, it's pretty obvious they were just making it up as they went along. A ton of stuff was just conjured up from 400-1500 and people today use it as the foundation of their faith.
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Even in modern times they make it up. In 1950 the pope decided that jesus' mother mary simply ascended to heaven, as an example.


Retro Rob said:
You do realize that the "extraordinary claims" quote is entirely subjective.

Not every person view the claims as "extraordinary". The concept of driving an automobile was extraordinary to some, but not to us.
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To anyone, parting the sea would be an extraordinary event. Yet there is no evidence from Egypt that the exodus ever occurred, no writings mention this impressive and magical feat.

If these miracles weren't extraordinary, how then how do they help prove jesus' divinity? Either he did something miraculous, and people would be wowed and repeat the story and it'd find its way in other writings, or he didn't and his miraculous events may have been quite trumped up in the bible.

Were the things jesus did miraculous or not?
 
Texashiker said:
Two witnesses are enough to prove just about any court case.

But for some reason you reject that idea when it comes to Christ?
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Eye witnesses are very unreliable.

"Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in 72% of convictions overturned through DNA testing."

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php

That is even from modern day, and not hundreds or thousands of years ago. If you were to trust the Bible, you would believe that the Jews were slaves in Egypt that built the pyramids. It is strange, however, that that "historical" detail seems to only be in the Bible, and nowhere else in any texts. Further, we don't see any sign of the 1 million Jew's stuff that would have been left behind. It is strange that 1 million people were able to clean up every item when they left, and that nobody else seems to talk about them being slaves of Egypt during that time.

But the Bible said it, so its totally true.
 
stormkroe said:
No, my first question was 'please back up the statement "we now know that the four gospels... were not written by them", not whether or not the majority of secular historians believe that assertion.
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He will back no statements he made up......that's just a fact of life!
 
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