Nor should we, unless the person truly engages in crimes, in which case they would already have been tried in the US anyway. The whole international court war crimes stuff is meant to apply to dictators and other rogue actors who do horrible things in places where there is no local laws/enforcement to prevent them from doing so. Idiots will try to use it as a political ploy against high ranking officials of normal countries, but that's just not going to fly.
Nor should we, unless the person truly engages in crimes, in which case they would already have been tried in the US anyway. The whole international court war crimes stuff is meant to apply to dictators and other rogue actors who do horrible things in places where there is no local laws/enforcement to prevent them from doing so. Idiots will try to use it as a political ploy against high ranking officials of normal countries, but that's just not going to fly.
That's the Governments fix for Wall Street too...the Dodd-Frank bill was a watered down POS that never made any attempts to re institute any part of the Glass-Steigall act or uptick rules.
You honestly think that when high ranking officials violate US law they would be tried in US courts? What on earth are you basing this on? This is pretty shockingly naive. Can you provide examples?
War crimes prosecutions have nothing to do with the law, they have everything to do with politics. No US official will be prosecuted for them inside or outside the US due to political considerations alone.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
I have no problem accepting the fact that Cheney is a war criminal and that Obama may be committing war crimes in Pakistan.
But no one expects to be prosecuted as war criminals, but characters like Mubarak and Assad will likely join the list who do stand trail.
As for Dick Cheney, I doubt he will long enough for the Hague to act, but GWB and even Obama may live long enough. But Dick Cheney does not engage in international travel either.
But no one expects to be prosecuted as war criminals, but characters like Mubarak and Assad will likely join the list who do stand trail.
As for Dick Cheney, I doubt he will long enough for the Hague to act, but GWB and even Obama may live long enough. But Dick Cheney does not engage in international travel either.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 28,604
- 39,931
- 136
If politics weren't involved there would be a investigation. As you yourself said earlier, the Obama admin isn't diving in because they don't want their time in the hot seat when their time is done. How does that absolve Cheney of responsibility in the wrongful unnecessary deaths of thousands of American enlisted?
We know he lied, repeatedly, to go to war. We know he did everything he could to stomp out any criticism or information that didn't go along with his agenda. Now he's lying in order to revise history. No WMD being found in Iraq is more than enough for a real investigation, one performed by professionals, not politicians who are out to cover their own.
I'm at a loss to explain why so many Americans who 'support the troops' are so glib, so indifferent when a character like Cheney uses them as a disposable medium to advance a corporate agenda.
I'm all for Cheney and Co having their day in court, as far as I'm concerned the families of the nearly 5k US dead deserve some justice instead of the usual being pissed-on treatment that they've been getting from neoconservative chickenhawks.
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An even better argument is that there isn't enough evidence to even proceed with an investigation. I don't know that, but it's at least as credible as the dems being afraid of the republicans.
glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
Let's start with this one.
Watch this:
Chairman Mao ate 5,000 human babies.
Now, you have two basic choices:
You can agree with the statement above, and lie.
You can say that it's false, and you are 'defending one of the mass murderers'.
Which do you pick? Liar or murderer defender?
That's the point with your baseless attack of 'defending murderers'.
First, I have told you repeatedly to learn to argue. You continue to waste the forum's time, posting an allegation like that with zero basis to support it.
So, I can't point out the errors - since you list nothing.
Second, that's the type of crap your attack is about. Does the left oppose lies even about the worst criminals? Yes. Do we oppose torturing them? Pretty much.
But you misrepresent that as 'defending them' as if we're saying 'the mass killing was ok!' You are lying.
Learn to argue. Post specifics to back up your assertion.
Here's a few examples of war crimes he should be investigated for.
The following clip is Glenn Greenwald at 3:25 listing some, including:
- Warrantless wiretapping of American citizens in violation of the law
- Approving the use of torture against the law
- Launching an illegal aggressive war
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/08/26-1
I don't really care to waste my time dealing with you making uninformed assertions 'oh that's no big deal'. If you can bother to make an argument, then reply.
Pens1566
Lifer
- Oct 11, 2005
- 12,212
- 9,007
- 136
I'll see you and raise you a http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/05/us-bush-torture-idUSTRE7141CU20110205
http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/
The first name that comes to everyones mind here is Halliburton. According to MSN Money, Halliburtons KBR, Inc. division bilked government agencies to the tune of $17.2 billion in Iraq war-related revenue from 2003-2006 alone. This is estimated to comprise a whopping one-fifth of KBRs total revenue for the 2006 fiscal year. The massive payoff is said to have financed the construction and maintenance of military bases, oil field repairs, and various infrastructure rebuilding projects across the war-torn nation. This is just the latest in a long string of military/KBR wartime partnerships, thanks in no small part to Dick Cheneys former role with the parent company.
Profiteering is corruption. The specific allegation here is war crimes. Atreus has a point. I hate Dick Cheney and I think he's probably guilty of several crimes, but war crimes I'm not sure about. I'd need to see the evidence for it laid out. So far I haven't seen that on this forum.
yllus
Elite Member & Lifer
- Aug 20, 2000
- 20,577
- 432
- 126
Haliburton wasn't his business - it was a business he was the ex-CEO of. And Haliburton didn't magically get those contracts, it got them because it was one of perhaps two corporations in the world capable of fulfilling the contracts in question. It also took most of those contracts on for a price of "cost plus one". Of course there's some incentive there to bill $10 million instead of $1 million to make that one percent really matter, but ultimately that's the result of poor government oversight.
If I recall correctly, Mr. Cheney was required to put his stocks in a blind trust so exactly this sort of accusations wouldn't be thrown around. He's not profited off of the Iraq war in any untoward manner (if he had, we surely would have had it played up by his political opponents at the time).
I think Mr. Cheney is a war monger in nearly as destructive a mold as Curtis LeMay, but I haven't read anything to make it him out to be corrupt.
Chaosblade02
Senior member
- Jul 21, 2011
- 304
- 0
- 0
It wasn't wall street it was the government ran Fannie and Freddie who tanked the economy giving loans to people they know couldn't pay them back. It was none other than the most left-wing senators like Barney Frank who championed the idea. They didn't think enough minorities were getting loans, so they ordered Fannie and Freddie to lower their credit standards and give loans to people that shouldn't have gotten them to begin with. This is what caused the housing bubble, and the banks to crash, because they then sold these bad and risky loans off to the banks. The housing market crashed, as with the banks which caused everything else to do down with it. Unfortunately the Banks should have been smart enough to say fuck you to the government, and in some states the banks did that and the ones who didn't bite into what the government was selling came out of it relatively unscathed. But in the end the tax payer had to bail out the bad decisions by not just the government, but also the banks.
You Liberals fucked up this economy, and there is no damn way you can deny it. Liberals owe an apology not just to America, but to the rest of the world for this mess we are in, because YOU caused it.
As far as war crimes go, neither the UN or any other country in the world is powerful enough to force US officials to stand before an international court for war crimes, and the US will refuse to throw its own people under the bus for an international court.
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You actually think Republican's can totally wash their hands of this then you are woefully naive.
Chaosblade02
Senior member
- Jul 21, 2011
- 304
- 0
- 0
Bush is the one who gave the first bailout to the banks, so he is partly to blame. He just went along with what Hank Paulson told him he should do, because he knew nothing about economics. Where did they get this bailout money from? They printed it out of thin air with nothing to back it. I am sure Bernanke currently has those printing presses running maximum capacity 24/7. That they call quantitative easing or QE1, 2, 3, etc is just a fancy word for printing money out of nothing, inflation. The biggest impact of all of this inflation isn't going to even sink in until about 10-15 years from now when everything is double or triple the price it currently is now.
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The cause of the Economic meltdown down started in increments 30 years before it actually went to hell.
Yes, we have yet to feel the full impact of printing trillions of dollars in such a short period of time. This will cause a true crisis at some point which will bring full fury of the public on those responsible or perceived to be responsible.
Chaosblade02
Senior member
- Jul 21, 2011
- 304
- 0
- 0
Huh
? I thought it was all George Bush's fault? Bush being the idiot he was, had little impact on why the economy is where it is right now, he made it worse by doing a bailout, but Obama just turned around and did the exact same thing, except did a bigger one. Keynesian economics isn't going to get us out of this recession. This isn't like the great depression, society and the economy are both much more complex than it used to be.One thing I do know is corporations and banks are both sitting on trillions in assets they are not spending, and much of it is overseas. A better approach would be to encourage them to come up off of some of that money and invest it in America. Obama isn't making any effort to even adress a solution to this. When are they going to realize that all of the money they are printing is doing nothing but floating straight to the top? This is why the Keynesian approach is failing. They are going to have to lower the corporate tax and give the people at the very top a break, because they are sitting on all the money and nobody can make them keep their money in America, if you push them too hard they will just take it elsewhere. The bailouts could have worked IF the people that got them actually invested the money in America. Wall Street, corporation and banks all got a bailout while mainstreet is getting raped anally with no lube.
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Huh
One thing I do know is corporations and banks are both sitting on trillions in assets they are not spending, and much of it is overseas. A better approach would be to encourage them to come up off of some of that money and invest it in America. Obama isn't making any effort to even adress a solution to this. When are they going to realize that all of the money they are printing is doing nothing but floating straight to the top? This is why the Keynesian approach is failing. They are going to have to lower the corporate tax and give the people at the very top a break, because they are sitting on all the money and nobody can make them keep their money in America, if you push them too hard they will just take it elsewhere. The bailouts could have worked IF the people that got them actually invested the money in America. Wall Street, corporation and banks all got a bailout while mainstreet is getting raped anally with no lube.
The Economic fallout wasn't GWB's or Obama's fault they were on the tail end of 30 years of bad fiscal policies put in place by Congress and the Feds. Many of the players who had directly in this clusterfuck are still in Congress so that means that the TRUE reason what caused the massive recession has been sweep under the proverbial rug.
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