Evolutionary Biology probes politics and economics

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Moonbeam

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Living World / Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World
?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

by Karen Wright
From the March 2009 issue, published online February 11, 2009

Today the evolutionary worldview has expanded into analyses of economics and politics as well as of human mating behavior. It has enriched the ?rational choice? model long espoused by economists to explain human behavior in the marketplace.

Traditional economic models assume that people act exclusively in their self-interest, just as traditional evolutionary theory describes competition among individuals. But cooperation and altruistic tendencies also show up routinely in studies of economic behavior. People who stand to lose from progressive taxation, for example, may still vote for it. ?You can?t predict how people will vote on the issue of income redistribution based on their income,? says economist Herbert Gintis of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico.

Gintis and other economists have noted [pdf] that the latest elaborations of Darwinian ideas can explain cooperation as well as competition in the economic arena, and they are modifying the rational-choice model accordingly. The template for cooperative behavior comes from so-called group selection, which holds that traits can persist or spread in a population even though they can be costly to the individual if they bestow an advantage on the group.

Behavior that is self-sacrificing might create such well-adapted societies that selfish individuals cannot compete with them. In the evolutionary view, group selection fostered pro-social tendencies such as honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, and loyalty?traits that were useful or necessary in the later development of civilization. ?Of course, these moral predispositions moderate rather than eliminate considerations of self-interest and loyalties to kith and kin,? Gintis wrote last March in the journal Science.

The selective tension between self-interest and collective welfare reflects a long-standing argument in political science. ?So much of the debate in the history of political theory ultimately comes down to a debate about human nature,? says Larry Arnhart, a political theorist at Northern Illinois University. In his blog Darwinian Conservatism, Arnhart uses evolutionary principles to critique political issues, such as the bailout packages approved last year by Congress. If humans are noble savages, given by nature to goodness, he argues, then government must take care not to corrupt our lofty intentions. If we are degenerate at heart, then government must act to rein in our base impulses. Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both. ?A growing number of political scientists are looking to biological science for guidance on that,? Arnhart says.
=====================

I have long noted that people who, in my opinion, know noting much at all about human nature base many of their political conclusions and ideas on just that feeble understanding. Even the scientists here are left guessing as to what is our real nature. The problem of course is that we do not know who we are because we do not know that we don't want to know who we are and we don't also want to know that. To know who you are you have to be able to feel what you feel.

At any rate, here is scientific proof of a kind as to why liberal thinking is superior to conservative thought because liberals emphasize cooperation and the welfare of the group, a superior evolutionary adaption over the cult of individualism gripping the United States.
 

PJABBER

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Feb 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Living World / Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World
?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

I have long noted that people who, in my opinion, know noting much at all about human nature base many of their political conclusions and ideas on just that feeble understanding. Even the scientists here are left guessing as to what is our real nature. The problem of course is that we do not know who we are because we do not know that we don't want to know who we are and we don't also want to know that. To know who you are you have to be able to feel what you feel.

At any rate, here is scientific proof of a kind as to why liberal thinking is superior to conservative thought because liberals emphasize cooperation and the welfare of the group, a superior evolutionary adaption over the cult of individualism gripping the United States.

While I do enjoy SOME of your posts, I am too sleepy right now to get into an "individualistic" rebuttal of your conclusion.

I hope you enjoy the following as an expression of my view of your opinion as stated above...

I herd you liek Mooninites?


:laugh:
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Living World / Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World
?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

by Karen Wright
From the March 2009 issue, published online February 11, 2009

Today the evolutionary worldview has expanded into analyses of economics and politics as well as of human mating behavior. It has enriched the ?rational choice? model long espoused by economists to explain human behavior in the marketplace.

Traditional economic models assume that people act exclusively in their self-interest, just as traditional evolutionary theory describes competition among individuals. But cooperation and altruistic tendencies also show up routinely in studies of economic behavior. People who stand to lose from progressive taxation, for example, may still vote for it. ?You can?t predict how people will vote on the issue of income redistribution based on their income,? says economist Herbert Gintis of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico.

Gintis and other economists have noted [pdf] that the latest elaborations of Darwinian ideas can explain cooperation as well as competition in the economic arena, and they are modifying the rational-choice model accordingly. The template for cooperative behavior comes from so-called group selection, which holds that traits can persist or spread in a population even though they can be costly to the individual if they bestow an advantage on the group.

Behavior that is self-sacrificing might create such well-adapted societies that selfish individuals cannot compete with them. In the evolutionary view, group selection fostered pro-social tendencies such as honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, and loyalty?traits that were useful or necessary in the later development of civilization. ?Of course, these moral predispositions moderate rather than eliminate considerations of self-interest and loyalties to kith and kin,? Gintis wrote last March in the journal Science.

The selective tension between self-interest and collective welfare reflects a long-standing argument in political science. ?So much of the debate in the history of political theory ultimately comes down to a debate about human nature,? says Larry Arnhart, a political theorist at Northern Illinois University. In his blog Darwinian Conservatism, Arnhart uses evolutionary principles to critique political issues, such as the bailout packages approved last year by Congress. If humans are noble savages, given by nature to goodness, he argues, then government must take care not to corrupt our lofty intentions. If we are degenerate at heart, then government must act to rein in our base impulses. Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both. ?A growing number of political scientists are looking to biological science for guidance on that,? Arnhart says.
=====================

I have long noted that people who, in my opinion, know noting much at all about human nature base many of their political conclusions and ideas on just that feeble understanding. Even the scientists here are left guessing as to what is our real nature. The problem of course is that we do not know who we are because we do not know that we don't want to know who we are and we don't also want to know that. To know who you are you have to be able to feel what you feel.

At any rate, here is scientific proof of a kind as to why liberal thinking is superior to conservative thought because liberals emphasize cooperation and the welfare of the group, a superior evolutionary adaption over the cult of individualism gripping the United States.

Nope, this is a scientific proof that liberal thinking is as wrong as conservative thinking because there is both good and evil in human nature. Quote: "Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both."

So any sides that emphasis on one feature, cooperation or indivdualism, is wrong. The only way to go is centralist and just accept the fact that there are all kinds of people out there and you need to have a balance in economic, social or whatever policy you have.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: rchiu

Nope, this is a scientific proof that liberal thinking is as wrong as conservative thinking because there is both good and evil in human nature. Quote: "Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both."

So any sides that emphasis on one feature, cooperation or indivdualism, is wrong. The only way to go is centralist and just accept the fact that there are all kinds of people out there and you need to have a balance in economic, social or whatever policy you have.

To be frank, I don't actually think it's scientific proof of anything but I thought maybe people might get a bit more jazzed at the idea putting it in those terms. It looks more like a theory using adaption as a means to explain the counter intuitive evolution of cooperation in a survival of the fittest tilted paradigm.

At any rate, as I suggested, the evolutionary biologists can't reason properly about their science because they themselves don't know human nature. They are trying to discover it from the outside because like everybody else, they are unconsciously motivated not to see they can only know by looking within.

Similarly, you have already decided that you know what is not known and therefore, your answer cranks out like a penny put in one of those souvenir presses. Suppose that we are part angle and part demon. We don't necessarily pick one part angle and one part demon, whatever that might be, and mix them to get some reasonable blend of compromise that would rationally allow us to govern. We will at the minimum have to do some thinking. Balance can be gotten in many ways when the quantities with mass differ on each side of the fulcrum. How much lead, how much gold to put with uranium and silver?

Also, in the resolution of paradoxical opposites, while the answer as always some third way, the answer is always arrived at by an explosion of insight, it is always a higher order of understanding, a leap into a new dimension where opposites are seen as the opposite sides of the same coin.

In our case here, the insight that is missing is the usual one. We do not see that we are dualistic because we believe in things that do not exist. Our capacity to use language allows us to create notions that have no reality, such as good and evil, and to use such terms to create emotional reactions to things via exposure and training, raising our children to feel good and bad as a means of control. We have forgotten who we really are because we have been conditioned and we do not recognize it so we do not work to find out. People do not strive for consciousness because they think they already are.


And, of course, if you say that liberal thinking is as wrong as conservative thinking you are also saying it is a correct as conservative thinking and the fact is that the US is way way over on the conservative side and in desperate need to move to the left if your balance thingi is correct, no?

 

LunarRay

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Mar 2, 2003
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Moonbeam,

To be frank, I don't actually think it's scientific proof of anything but I thought maybe people might get a bit more jazzed at the idea putting it in those terms. It looks more like a theory using adaption as a means to explain the counter intuitive evolution of cooperation in a survival of the fittest tilted paradigm.

You are suggesting here, I presume, that folks adapt to their current socio/economic situation (as they see it) and vote or otherwise act accordingly? However, they always act in what they see as their best survival strategy regardless of the adapted mind set which may or may not be counter to the survival strategy? IOW, folks tend to revert back to what their 'warm and fuzzies' tell them is their best survival modality? (It really is a question)
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Living World / Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World
?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

by Karen Wright
From the March 2009 issue, published online February 11, 2009

Today the evolutionary worldview has expanded into analyses of economics and politics as well as of human mating behavior. It has enriched the ?rational choice? model long espoused by economists to explain human behavior in the marketplace.

Traditional economic models assume that people act exclusively in their self-interest, just as traditional evolutionary theory describes competition among individuals. But cooperation and altruistic tendencies also show up routinely in studies of economic behavior. People who stand to lose from progressive taxation, for example, may still vote for it. ?You can?t predict how people will vote on the issue of income redistribution based on their income,? says economist Herbert Gintis of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico.

Gintis and other economists have noted [pdf] that the latest elaborations of Darwinian ideas can explain cooperation as well as competition in the economic arena, and they are modifying the rational-choice model accordingly. The template for cooperative behavior comes from so-called group selection, which holds that traits can persist or spread in a population even though they can be costly to the individual if they bestow an advantage on the group.

Behavior that is self-sacrificing might create such well-adapted societies that selfish individuals cannot compete with them. In the evolutionary view, group selection fostered pro-social tendencies such as honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, and loyalty?traits that were useful or necessary in the later development of civilization. ?Of course, these moral predispositions moderate rather than eliminate considerations of self-interest and loyalties to kith and kin,? Gintis wrote last March in the journal Science.

The selective tension between self-interest and collective welfare reflects a long-standing argument in political science. ?So much of the debate in the history of political theory ultimately comes down to a debate about human nature,? says Larry Arnhart, a political theorist at Northern Illinois University. In his blog Darwinian Conservatism, Arnhart uses evolutionary principles to critique political issues, such as the bailout packages approved last year by Congress. If humans are noble savages, given by nature to goodness, he argues, then government must take care not to corrupt our lofty intentions. If we are degenerate at heart, then government must act to rein in our base impulses. Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both. ?A growing number of political scientists are looking to biological science for guidance on that,? Arnhart says.
=====================

I have long noted that people who, in my opinion, know noting much at all about human nature base many of their political conclusions and ideas on just that feeble understanding. Even the scientists here are left guessing as to what is our real nature. The problem of course is that we do not know who we are because we do not know that we don't want to know who we are and we don't also want to know that. To know who you are you have to be able to feel what you feel.

At any rate, here is scientific proof of a kind as to why liberal thinking is superior to conservative thought because liberals emphasize cooperation and the welfare of the group, a superior evolutionary adaption over the cult of individualism gripping the United States.

The person who wrote that has no idea what she's talking about.

To compare something to the scientific theory of evolution you'll need to understand the basic concepts at the very least, obviously she doesn't.

It's a lot of word with no meaning, it's boring and uninspiring too.

i have no fucking idea why you'd post this shit Moonbeam, you know better.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Moonbeam said: ... And, of course, if you say that liberal thinking is as wrong as conservative thinking you are also saying it is a correct as conservative thinking and the fact is that the US is way way over on the conservative side and in desperate need to move to the left if your balance thingi is correct, no?

Well, which is doing the moving? Is what defines conservative/liberal moving and people stay where they are 'genetically programed' to find comfort (I'm a conservative!!) or do the people actually do the moving along a static set of values that define conservativism/liberalism? (I like that program or philosophy!!) That would indicate that as the times change some issues resonate in the mind and folks latch on to them. It explains why Reagan was able to get many liberal folks to his camp... or was it his voice. It seems to me that there may be some definition on each end of the line and that the point of entry into one or the other of the catagories moves to capture as many minds as possible.
Do the liberal power brokers seek to grab onto issues that could be conservative yesterday and define them as liberal today and they who do these kind of things first sets the ideology of the term 'liberal' or 'conservative'.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,571
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JoS: The person who wrote that has no idea what she's talking about.

M: You don't know what you are talking about.

JoS: To compare something to the scientific theory of evolution you'll need to understand the basic concepts at the very least, obviously she doesn't.

M: Obviously you do not.

JoS: It's a lot of word with no meaning, it's boring and uninspiring too.

M: You post was a waste of works that carried no meaning.

JoS: i have no fucking idea why you'd post this shit Moonbeam, you know better.

M: It's need to know only. You are insufficient in rank.

Relax and be happy!
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Living World / Evolution We All Live in Darwin's World
?Survival of the fittest? is helping us understand not only the origin of species but also love, politics, and even the cosmos.

by Karen Wright
From the March 2009 issue, published online February 11, 2009

Today the evolutionary worldview has expanded into analyses of economics and politics as well as of human mating behavior. It has enriched the ?rational choice? model long espoused by economists to explain human behavior in the marketplace.

Traditional economic models assume that people act exclusively in their self-interest, just as traditional evolutionary theory describes competition among individuals. But cooperation and altruistic tendencies also show up routinely in studies of economic behavior. People who stand to lose from progressive taxation, for example, may still vote for it. ?You can?t predict how people will vote on the issue of income redistribution based on their income,? says economist Herbert Gintis of the Santa Fe Institute in New Mexico.

Gintis and other economists have noted [pdf] that the latest elaborations of Darwinian ideas can explain cooperation as well as competition in the economic arena, and they are modifying the rational-choice model accordingly. The template for cooperative behavior comes from so-called group selection, which holds that traits can persist or spread in a population even though they can be costly to the individual if they bestow an advantage on the group.

Behavior that is self-sacrificing might create such well-adapted societies that selfish individuals cannot compete with them. In the evolutionary view, group selection fostered pro-social tendencies such as honesty, trustworthiness, consideration, and loyalty?traits that were useful or necessary in the later development of civilization. ?Of course, these moral predispositions moderate rather than eliminate considerations of self-interest and loyalties to kith and kin,? Gintis wrote last March in the journal Science.

The selective tension between self-interest and collective welfare reflects a long-standing argument in political science. ?So much of the debate in the history of political theory ultimately comes down to a debate about human nature,? says Larry Arnhart, a political theorist at Northern Illinois University. In his blog Darwinian Conservatism, Arnhart uses evolutionary principles to critique political issues, such as the bailout packages approved last year by Congress. If humans are noble savages, given by nature to goodness, he argues, then government must take care not to corrupt our lofty intentions. If we are degenerate at heart, then government must act to rein in our base impulses. Because of the interplay of individual survival and group selection, evolutionary biology suggests we might be a little bit of both. ?A growing number of political scientists are looking to biological science for guidance on that,? Arnhart says.
=====================

I have long noted that people who, in my opinion, know noting much at all about human nature base many of their political conclusions and ideas on just that feeble understanding. Even the scientists here are left guessing as to what is our real nature. The problem of course is that we do not know who we are because we do not know that we don't want to know who we are and we don't also want to know that. To know who you are you have to be able to feel what you feel.

At any rate, here is scientific proof of a kind as to why liberal thinking is superior to conservative thought because liberals emphasize cooperation and the welfare of the group, a superior evolutionary adaption over the cult of individualism gripping the United States.
Liberal thinking is not an inherent part of human nature.
 
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