Evolution...

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There can be no doubt about evolution. All you have to do is look at yourself impartially for a few seconds to see that you are a chimpanzee.

It is also obvious that the only people who question evolution are religious fundamentalists who were sold a religious bunch of bananas before the age when they could reason and had that capacity thereby turned off.

There is the fact of evolution and the religious fear that the fact of evolution disproves religion leaving the comfortable notion that one is going to heaven when one dies in doubt.

That is why every intelligent religion, and we can include the Catholic church here on this issue, teaches that God and science can co-exist.

The fact of evolution does not disprove God.

Unfortunately, religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is a way for preachers to make a living off the ignorant and they do everything in their power to keep them that way.

This is best done by making the faithful proud of their ignorance, "I am especially gifted and important because, against the weight of the evil secular world, I believe in Divine Creation. Don't I impress ya?"

:thumbsup:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: Zebo
Not at all since I and most people with faith and understanding of evolution/science view evolution as the means or the method god used for creating man.

I will never believe anyone created man as some divine manifestation of himself. In the vastness of the universe, how can anyone believe we are somehow "special"?

Special is a relative term. We have no way of knowing what God may or may not consider to be special.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: Vic
Special is a relative term. We have no way of knowing what God may or may not consider to be special.

Has he created anyone else besides us?

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Not at all. Creationism is a theory that attempts to explain the natural world with the supernatural (religion). It is as wrong to explain real world phenomena with faith as it is to explain the supernatural with science.

Nothing wrong with it as long as you remain aware that it has a predictive power of zero; it's not science, it's not a theory, it's a belief. In the absence of evidence, it's a perfectly valid, but still unsupported position.

Well, I agree with you until the last point. Creationism does indeed have its evidence, however, it is not scientific evidence. You're referring to the great paradigm divide that is the source of the eternal science vs. religion debate.

The way I see it, Creationism does not have evidence, it has claims, which are themselves completely unsupported.

Creationists have evidence - they have their religious texts. Within the paradigm of faith/religion, creationists can make internally consistent, logical arguments based on what is a fact within their paradigm. This is why scientists dismiss the creationists' arguments - to a scientist, the evidence is, well, a sham. And vice versa. The important thing is to recognize the realm of each - one is appropriate for the natural, one is appropriate for the supernatural.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There can be no doubt about evolution. All you have to do is look at yourself impartially for a few seconds to see that you are a chimpanzee.

It is also obvious that the only people who question evolution are religious fundamentalists who were sold a religious bunch of bananas before the age when they could reason and had that capacity thereby turned off.

There is the fact of evolution and the religious fear that the fact of evolution disproves religion leaving the comfortable notion that one is going to heaven when one dies in doubt.

That is why every intelligent religion, and we can include the Catholic church here on this issue, teaches that God and science can co-exist.

The fact of evolution does not disprove God.

Unfortunately, religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is a way for preachers to make a living off the ignorant and they do everything in their power to keep them that way.

This is best done by making the faithful proud of their ignorance, "I am especially gifted and important because, against the weight of the evil secular world, I believe in Divine Creation. Don't I impress ya?"

An excellent post, Moonie. A bit negative, but hey I can't blame ya. The Fundies may be held under sway (as you contend) but I still reserve their inalienable right to believe as they choose to believe, regardless of how foolish.

On one point though (and I know this is OT), regarding humans evolving from chimps, I take a different view. That we did not evolve directly from chimps but through a common ancestor. Just MO.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: Vic
Special is a relative term. We have no way of knowing what God may or may not consider to be special.

Has he created anyone else besides us?

We as yet have no way of knowing that either. Neither through religion or science.

But we may yet be special. My favorite scientific hypothesis regarding the purpose of human life is that, because all the elements that make up the human body originated from within stars, we represent the universe acquiring conscious intelligence in its attempt to figure out just what it is.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There can be no doubt about evolution. All you have to do is look at yourself impartially for a few seconds to see that you are a chimpanzee.

It is also obvious that the only people who question evolution are religious fundamentalists who were sold a religious bunch of bananas before the age when they could reason and had that capacity thereby turned off.

There is the fact of evolution and the religious fear that the fact of evolution disproves religion leaving the comfortable notion that one is going to heaven when one dies in doubt.

That is why every intelligent religion, and we can include the Catholic church here on this issue, teaches that God and science can co-exist.

The fact of evolution does not disprove God.

Unfortunately, religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is a way for preachers to make a living off the ignorant and they do everything in their power to keep them that way.

This is best done by making the faithful proud of their ignorance, "I am especially gifted and important because, against the weight of the evil secular world, I believe in Divine Creation. Don't I impress ya?"

On one point though (and I know this is OT), regarding humans evolving from chimps, I take a different view. That we did not evolve directly from chimps but through a common ancestor. Just MO.

That's exactly what most anthropologists believe, that chimpanzee and us may have common ancestor(s), but not that chimpanzee are our direct ancestors.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

You mean the chimpmanzee?

Some anthropologists & evolutionary biologists think the chimpanzee, human, and gorilla lines all diverged at roughly the same time from our most recent common ancestor, so that we're technically as related to gorillas as we are to chimps.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
You mean the chimpmanzee?

Some anthropologists & evolutionary biologists think the chimpanzee, human, and gorilla lines all diverged at roughly the same time from our most recent common ancestor, so that we're technically as related to gorillas as we are to chimps.

Yeah, but science being the way that it is:

Evidence for the Orangutan Relationship to man

 

[Gigantopithecus]

 

[dornick]

Originally posted by: Promethply

As we know, science is work in progress, and as such, there's so much more data out in our universe yet to be discovered, and scientists aren't foolish enough to claim to know about how life originated.

They have some ideas on how life might have been created, but unless they can accurately simulate the earth's early environment and atmosphere prior to life's appearance on it, they would not claim to know how life was "created".

Actually, it's not like this. My high school bio text book didn't say "we don't know how life originated", it made some BS answer up about chemicals magically coming together to form "pseudo-cells" with could reproduce and eventually formed real cells.

I'm not opposed to evolution (anymore). However, aren't we pretty sure that what actually happened isn't what we're teaching in high school? I mean, all you get is Darwin's theory of natural selection with continous mutations. But hasn't it been shown that the fossil record is mostly stable with rapid changes every once in a while? If so, I think we should be straight with the students.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: conjur
Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


If people would just read and understand we wouldn't need these discussions. Also, if certain people wouldn't distort the meaning of evolution to mean the beginning of life or even the universe, we'd be much better off.

:thumbsup:

Exactly. I have never heard a single reason why Creationism and Evolution cannot coexist. There should not be a division between science and religion. Science is a tool on God's belt .

Again, where in evolution did your soul appear? Before we branched off of the same line that resulted in something else? If so, could apes have souls? After we became homo sapiens? If so, could some races not have souls?

You are assuming that a soul exists physically. I don't think anyone can prove, or disprove, that.

 

[glorifiedg790]

Originally posted by: Scribe
Just curious... I do believe in it because I see proof in lots of proof in nature.. any NON believers? I'd like to hear your side of it

Religion and Darwinism can exist together. I am a Cathloic and beleive in evolution. Genesis is still true regardless. There are literalists, and there are reasonable contextualists, which is what I am. Genesis was writeen by people who had no idea about science, they thought the earth was a flat square and heaven was a dome around it. God created the earth which led to the evolution of homo sapiens, who are the first two humans god created. I believe there were two first humans but it is unreasonable to say that we were just put here by God without any form of evolution.

 

[Promethply]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Promethply

As we know, science is work in progress, and as such, there's so much more data out in our universe yet to be discovered, and scientists aren't foolish enough to claim to know about how life originated.

They have some ideas on how life might have been created, but unless they can accurately simulate the earth's early environment and atmosphere prior to life's appearance on it, they would not claim to know how life was "created".

Actually, it's not like this. My high school bio text book didn't say "we don't know how life originated", it made some BS answer up about chemicals magically coming together to form "pseudo-cells" with could reproduce and eventually formed real cells.

I'm not opposed to evolution (anymore). However, aren't we pretty sure that what actually happened isn't what we're teaching in high school? I mean, all you get is Darwin's theory of natural selection with continous mutations. But hasn't it been shown that the fossil record is mostly stable with rapid changes every once in a while? If so, I think we should be straight with the students.

Science is work in progress

and no, it's not BS, some organic molecules are attracted to each other if they have opposite polarities.

Just be patient, high school textbooks are overly simplified to cater to the average highschool students.

When you get to college and continue taking classes in the natural sciences, then you'll really get into much more depth -- that's just the nature of the US education system.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: dornick

Originally posted by: Promethply

As we know, science is work in progress, and as such, there's so much more data out in our universe yet to be discovered, and scientists aren't foolish enough to claim to know about how life originated.

They have some ideas on how life might have been created, but unless they can accurately simulate the earth's early environment and atmosphere prior to life's appearance on it, they would not claim to know how life was "created".

Actually, it's not like this. My high school bio text book didn't say "we don't know how life originated", it made some BS answer up about chemicals magically coming together to form "pseudo-cells" with could reproduce and eventually formed real cells.

I'm not opposed to evolution (anymore). However, aren't we pretty sure that what actually happened isn't what we're teaching in high school? I mean, all you get is Darwin's theory of natural selection with continous mutations. But hasn't it been shown that the fossil record is mostly stable with rapid changes every once in a while? If so, I think we should be straight with the students.

My high school bio text book didn't say "we don't know how life originated", it made some BS answer up about chemicals magically coming together to form "pseudo-cells" with could reproduce and eventually formed real cells.

It's called Primordial soup

Formation of Primordial Cells

But of course you have to believe in Science first, my bad.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's called Primordial soup

Formation of Primordial Cells

But of course you have to believe in Science first, my bad.

Primordial soup as the abiogenetic origin of life is not a part of the theory of evolution, and no longer accepted by most scientists.
The idea has been extensively studied and mostly determined to be a dead end. Apparently they can make the cells that are the building blocks of life but, regardless of what they do, the cells do not become life. In one article I read, a scientist said (and I quote), "We can replicate the hardware, but we seem to be missing the software".

edit: and isn't it amusing that they're using clay in that article you linked?

And note this quote from the principal scientist in that experiment in that article:

"We are not claiming that this is how life started," emphasized Szostak. "We are saying that we have demonstrated growth and division without any biochemical machinery. Ultimately, if we can demonstrate more natural ways this might have happened, it may begin to give us clues about how life could have actually gotten started on the primitive Earth."

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There can be no doubt about evolution. All you have to do is look at yourself impartially for a few seconds to see that you are a chimpanzee.

It is also obvious that the only people who question evolution are religious fundamentalists who were sold a religious bunch of bananas before the age when they could reason and had that capacity thereby turned off.

There is the fact of evolution and the religious fear that the fact of evolution disproves religion leaving the comfortable notion that one is going to heaven when one dies in doubt.

That is why every intelligent religion, and we can include the Catholic church here on this issue, teaches that God and science can co-exist.

The fact of evolution does not disprove God.

Unfortunately, religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is a way for preachers to make a living off the ignorant and they do everything in their power to keep them that way.

This is best done by making the faithful proud of their ignorance, "I am especially gifted and important because, against the weight of the evil secular world, I believe in Divine Creation. Don't I impress ya?"

I think you go too far. The opposition is from a misunderstanding i think, some think evolution/and theory is saying/impling we're here by chance and evolution is working by chance and god does'nt play dice.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
There can be no doubt about evolution. All you have to do is look at yourself impartially for a few seconds to see that you are a chimpanzee.

It is also obvious that the only people who question evolution are religious fundamentalists who were sold a religious bunch of bananas before the age when they could reason and had that capacity thereby turned off.

There is the fact of evolution and the religious fear that the fact of evolution disproves religion leaving the comfortable notion that one is going to heaven when one dies in doubt.

That is why every intelligent religion, and we can include the Catholic church here on this issue, teaches that God and science can co-exist.

The fact of evolution does not disprove God.

Unfortunately, religion, especially fundamentalist religion, is a way for preachers to make a living off the ignorant and they do everything in their power to keep them that way.

This is best done by making the faithful proud of their ignorance, "I am especially gifted and important because, against the weight of the evil secular world, I believe in Divine Creation. Don't I impress ya?"

I think you go too far. The opposition is from a misunderstanding i think, some think evolution/and theory is saying/impling we're here by chance and evolution is working by chance and god does'nt play dice.

Cool Zebo Vs Moonie :thumbsup:

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Scribe
Just curious... I do believe in it because I see proof in lots of proof in nature.. any NON believers? I'd like to hear your side of it

Evolution and religion both require a bit of Faith

No???

How can either be proven as an absolute?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Scribe
Just curious... I do believe in it because I see proof in lots of proof in nature.. any NON believers? I'd like to hear your side of it

Evolution and religion both require a bit of Faith

No???

How can either be proven as an absolute?

No. While science requires faith to propose a hypothesis as it could not progress without speculation and belief that lead to testable hypothesis. The central difference between scientific speculation and other speculations or believes, is that scientific speculation must make predictions that can be tested. Otherwise it's not defined as science.

 

[Zebo]

Cool Zebo Vs Moonie :thumbsup:

No thanks. One thing smart people can recognise pretty quick is when someone is smarter than them.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Cool Zebo Vs Moonie :thumbsup:

No thanks. One thing smart people can recognise pretty quick is when someone is smarter than them.

Moonies attempt at dissecting this discussion was mediocre, but I still concur with what you implied.

 

[0roo0roo]

its the foundation of genetics/biological sciences... only a twit who is intellectually dishonest believes otherwise so that they can instead happily believe in magic.

 

[Cobalt]

Originally posted by: conjur
Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


If people would just read and understand we wouldn't need these discussions. Also, if certain people wouldn't distort the meaning of evolution to mean the beginning of life or even the universe, we'd be much better off.

Correct. Evolution is not to be confused with abiogenesis, which so many people on this board and elsewhere do.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: NightTrain
In the vastness of the universe, how can anyone believe we are somehow "special"?

I see it in a completely opposite way. In the vastness of the universe, how can anyone NOT believe we are somehow "special"? We have looked as far, and as close, as our eyes can see, and I haven't seen anything more beautiful and at the same time, more evil, than a human being.