Evolution:4-10-04 Evolution theory is rooted in the religion of atheism

[chess9]

Mrs. Cox apparently thinks "creationism" (aka "creation science") is a "competing theory" to evolution. Unfortunately, this statement only reveals an enormous ignorance on her part. No scientific theory of creation exists. Creation is a bible story, not science. Bible stories belong in bible schools and churches not public schools. I have often commented about the abysmal state of America's understanding of biological basics. Mrs. Cox made the case better than I ever could have.

Hero, if you believe the story of creation fine. That is your right. Don't call it science and don't pass off some creationist crap you copy and paste from some dim witted site as science. Creationists are bigger liars than politicians, and that is a big hurdle to leap. Many of the top creationists have phony degrees from phony "universities" and wouldn't know an allele from an Acura.

Good grief, you right wingers are hopelessy mired in nonesense. It's probably evolution gone bad....

Let's not go on with this debate because you don't want to learn any science. You want your prejudices pumped into the veins of every child in America.

-Robert

 

[chess9]

The origin of the universe theories, e.g. Big Bang, have exactly zero to do with change in allele frequency over time. Only somone who had purposely made themselves ignorant of simple biological facts would think otherwise.

This is truly sad to see. Please go do your homework....

-Robert

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: chess9
Mrs. Cox apparently thinks "creationism" (aka "creation science") is a "competing theory" to evolution. Unfortunately, this statement only reveals an enormous ignorance on her part. No scientific theory of creation exists. Creation is a bible story, not science. Bible stories belong in bible schools and churches not public schools. I have often commented about the abysmal state of America's understanding of biological basics. Mrs. Cox made the case better than I ever could have.

Hero, if you believe the story of creation fine. That is your right. Don't call it science and don't pass off some creationist crap you copy and paste from some dim witted site as science. Creationists are bigger liars than politicians, and that is a big hurdle to leap. Many of the top creationists have phony degrees from phony "universities" and wouldn't know an allele from an Acura.

Good grief, you right wingers are hopelessy mired in nonesense. It's probably evolution gone bad....

Let's not go on with this debate because you don't want to learn any science. You want your prejudices pumped into the veins of every child in America.

-Robert

I'm not calling it science. Your reading comprehension sucks.

I'm calling it a theory. I'm also calling evolution a theory. Neither has any place in a science classroom.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Personally I have long felt that some of the most ignorant people about Christianity are Christians, at least in name.

I disagree. You need to be well-steeped in Christian Values, Beliefs, and Teaching in order to most effectively and creatively twist and abuse them to your own ends.

Well if that's your disagreement than you agree not disagree.

 

[Ferocious]

Damn Bush and his tax cuts for the rich.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Personally I have long felt that some of the most ignorant people about Christianity are Christians, at least in name.

I agree.

I still don't understand why you seem to thing the origin of the universe and evolution are one in the same?

Because you can't just take bits of a theory and argue those bits. As Lunar says and MB quotes, you limit the scope you limit the findings.

The only reason I can see for your asking is that you're curious about the theory that God created the world through evolution. From a Christian stand point, that's a complete copout position that's inconsistent with the Bible. Once you start taking such enormous liberties with the scripture, you discredit the whole thing.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Fausto

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Personally I have long felt that some of the most ignorant people about Christianity are Christians, at least in name.

I disagree. You need to be well-steeped in Christian Values, Beliefs, and Teaching in order to most effectively and creatively twist and abuse them to your own ends.

Well if that's your disagreement than you agree not disagree.

Right. Just so long as we're in agreement on this.

 

[Moonbeam]

The bottom line usually is that if evolution is true than the Bible isn't literally true and if the Bible isn't literally true than it's all false and there's no God. So Fundamentalists basically, are Christians who don't have much faith. They can't have faith and be wrong about anything. A real Christian to me is somebody who feels God's love and would feel it still even if everything he ever heard about God was wrong. The lover is both filled and consumed by love and there's no room for certainty or doubt. Even science and religion disappear, no?

God is the Alpha and Omega

 

[kage69]

I disagree. You need to be well-steeped in Christian Values, Beliefs, and Teaching in order to most effectively and creatively twist and abuse them to your own ends

That has been my experince as well during 5 years of living in the Bible Belt. It is simply mindboggling what some of the Christian schools down there do with their students.

 

[chess9]

Hero:

You are digging yourself in deeper young man. You apparently don't know what a theory is, but assuming you do, would you care to state the Theory of Creation, and show how it is falsifiable? And which peer reviewed scientific publications have published articles about this theory? How many chairmen of the biology departments of the 100 largest public universities in America have authorized the teaching of this theory? In fact, what colleges, other than bible colleges, teach anything about creation in their biology departments? Please come up with just one. Harvard? MIT? Georgia Tech? Clemson? Vanderbilt? CalPoly? Even the University of North Dakota, Hoople Extension, Night Division doesn't teach it.

Theories abound in classrooms and there is no logical basis for excluding the teaching of theories. The problem with you is you don't understand what a theory is and therefore think anything can be a theory, including the creation story in Genesis.

Evolution theory is simply the best current scientific explanation for a broad set of biological facts. Creationism is BELIEF. It is not founded on facts but upon the bible. If you believe the Genesis story is fact, then the burden is on you to prove the truth of that fact. Which might prove tricky....

-Robert

 

[kage69]

Once you start taking such enormous liberties with the scripture, you discredit the whole thing.

The bible is nothing BUT enormous liberties taken by its various authors. It deserves no credit, except from those easily beguiled with delusions of sanctity.

 

[chess9]

Oh, and something else, sort of paralleling what Moonbeam said. These wacko ideas about hard scientific facts turn me off of all religion. I was raised in a diverse religious household but I've watched the wackos get ahold of science and politics and I cannot imagine anything worse for our country and the world.

Fundamentalism is on the rise here in America, which means your lies, Hero, are believed by quite a few people. That is truly scary.

-Robert

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: chess9
Oh, and something else, sort of paralleling what Moonbeam said. These wacko ideas about hard scientific facts turn me off of all religion.

-Robert

I could care less. The comprehension abilities of the posters in this thread are horrifyingly low, so if you disagree with me, that's probably a good thing. Every single one of you has ignored or read into my posts arguing, instead, against some inner dialogue you're apparently having with yourselves.

Christianity and the Bible don't contradict science; nor does science contradict evolution or creationism. Science is a splendid thing...all will agree. But evolution is not science...it's a creation theory. It has NOT been proven in any kind of a scientific manner. Neither has Creationism. Both are theories. You can believe in Creationism and still be a scientist.

 

[chess9]

Hero:

So, basicly you are admitting that you don't know diddly about science, you don't know the cube root of diddly about biology, and you don't know the gigaroot of diddly about evolution?

That's what I thought. Wallow in it dude. It's your brain that is shackled to a beautiful lie.

I prefer the ugly truth.

-Robert

 

[Genesys]

Hehe....you people and your "science requires faith" line. The whole point of science is to generate and use data to prove or disprove theories. You put as much weight behind the theory as there is current scientific data for it whereas you fundamentalists are still stuck with the same old book and just find new and exciting ways to misinterpret its contents to supports your social views.

lol, you people that believe science is the only answer crack me up. If youre going to believe that, you need to get one thing straight, in science nothing is proven. What you're supposed to do is formulate a hypothesis and then test it. After that, your results either support your hypothesis or thwart your hypothesis. Then other people take the results of your experiment [hopefully you're a great record keeper] and then they conduct the same experiment you did. If their results came up different than yours, then you have two [or more] conflicting views on your hypothesis.

Oh well, after a while, if your hypothesis is found to be supported by the results of your experimentation [and theres no one that has conducted the same experiment and gotten conflicting results] you can change your hypothesis from being a hypothesis to a theorey. Now then, theoreys arent exactly laws either, now are they? For a theorey to become a law, the theorey has got to work out 100% of the time, with no conflicting results whatsoever.

Uh...yeah. Science vs. Mostly Fictional Book Describing All-Powerful Diety Who Never Seems To Do Anything. Very ironic.

i'll take the Mostly Fictional Book Describing All-Powerful Diety Who Never Seems To Do Anything over science any day. At least religion trys to tell me how I might be able to attain salvation, whereas science never seems to do anything except drive people apart. You want to see a fierce debate? Go watch some poor Christian schmuk try to argue his case against a 'highly enlightened' scientist. All you'll see is this highly englihtened scientist pounding scientific fact [

] into this poor guys face and screaming about how this poor christian fellow is so ignorant. At least the Christian fellow has humility and maners.

Oh, and prove that the God of Chrisitianity doesnt do anything. You cant, can you? Theres not a single tool in your scientific tool bag that enables you to disprove God. All you can do is blather on about how illogical it is and how science is the only way.

Keep studying pseudoscience. If you think that God created the universe, where did God come from?

we dont know, I suppose God has always has been and always will be. Presuming that Christianity is correct, we'll be able to ask God when we die, wont we?



Oh well, IMO, science is here to back religion up, not to try and thwart religion [like what seems to be popular these days]. Oh well, people can use anything for anything other than their intended purpose, cant they? People can use a car to run someone over and kill them, people can use a baseball bat to smash their skull in, so why cant scientists use science to try and thwart religion?

Oh, and for another comment, I really don't think that man has evolved, but rather adapted to fit any troubles that have arisen.

 

[kage69]

You can believe in Creationism and still be a scientist.

Sure you can, just not one to be taken seriously.

Christianity and the Bible don't contradict science; nor does science contradict evolution or creationism

Wow. That earlier remark about your head being in the sand doesn't seem that far off now...

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: chess9
Mrs. Cox apparently thinks "creationism" (aka "creation science") is a "competing theory" to evolution. Unfortunately, this statement only reveals an enormous ignorance on her part. No scientific theory of creation exists. Creation is a bible story, not science. Bible stories belong in bible schools and churches not public schools. I have often commented about the abysmal state of America's understanding of biological basics. Mrs. Cox made the case better than I ever could have.

Hero, if you believe the story of creation fine. That is your right. Don't call it science and don't pass off some creationist crap you copy and paste from some dim witted site as science. Creationists are bigger liars than politicians, and that is a big hurdle to leap. Many of the top creationists have phony degrees from phony "universities" and wouldn't know an allele from an Acura.

Good grief, you right wingers are hopelessy mired in nonesense. It's probably evolution gone bad....

Let's not go on with this debate because you don't want to learn any science. You want your prejudices pumped into the veins of every child in America.

-Robert

I'm not calling it science. Your reading comprehension sucks.

I'm calling it a theory. I'm also calling evolution a theory. Neither has any place in a science classroom.

Theory of relativity is also a theory, I guess we shouldn't teach it either. Or geometry. Two parallel lines don't intersect is an axiom, not proven. Non-euclidian geometry assumes they do intersect. So we shouldn't teach geometry. Let's just stop teaching things that are theories. That way our children don't have to think too hard.

 

[chess9]

Genesys:

So, you've never seen a geometric proof? Why am I not surprised....

-Robert

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No wonder Georgia schools are 50th in the Nation, they have completely broken the whole idea of "school". They apparently have never heard of the concept "If it isn't broken don't fix it." They sure have broken school here.

There is only a link about the Budget but there is also a Bill in for a Proposed "Recess Time" in school now. Apparently the kids in all grades go from class to class with no break except for lunch period. The Bill proposes one 15 minute break for students during the day.

When was Study Hall eliminated? In New York there was always one full class period a day that may change what time it was depending on the day but can always count on that time to "re-coup" somewhat from the day.

Also Georgia Schools have now stripped any reference to Darwin and "Evolution" from the Curriculum. God with Adam and Eve is the only thing allowed to be taught to the students.


1-29-2004 Local Officials: School Cuts Devastating

ATLANTA (AP) -- Local school officials painted an alarming picture for state legislators Wednesday of children being taken to school in worn-out buses and using tattered textbooks for their studies if Gov. Sonny Perdue's education cuts are approved.

Some also warned they will be forced to look to layoffs and to raise local taxes to absorb the hit.

Perdue, struggling to balance the books after two years of sluggish tax collections, has proposed cutting state grants to education by $126 million in the current budget and by a further $380 million in the budget for the year beginning July 1.

"I think we need to be honest about it," said Deloras Moon, a Jones County school board member and president of the Georgia School Boards Association. "If the state cuts it, it's going to be raised at the local level."

Edit: Thanks Fausto found a link to Georgia must teach students God only:

1-29-2004 Georgia State School Superintendent Kathy Cox moves to strike "Evolution" from schools.

The Georgia Department of Education based its biology curriculum on national standards put forth by a respected source, the American Association for the Advancement of Science. But while the state copied most of the national standards, it deleted much of the section that covers the origin of living things.

Terrie Kielborn, a middle school science teacher in Paulding County who was on the committee, recalled that Stephen Pruitt, the state's curriculum specialist for science, told the panel not to include the word evolution.

"We were pretty much told not to put it in there," Kielborn said. The rationale was community reaction, she said.

"When you say the word evolution, people automatically, whatever age they are, think of the man-monkey thing," Kielborn said.

If Georgia approves the revised curriculum, the state will be among six that avoid the word "evolution" in science teaching, according to the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit organization that advocates for evolution instruction.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are the other 5 States that have banned "Evolution" in Teaching?

I've heard mention of 'study hall', but never as a period for all kids to study/recoup. We always had 2 recesses in elementary school, plus lunch. Middle and high school you had 5 minutes between each of six classes as well as lunch. That's it.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: chess9
Hero:

So, basicly you are admitting that you don't know diddly about science, you don't know the cube root of diddly about biology, and you don't know the gigaroot of diddly about evolution?

That's what I thought. Wallow in it dude. It's your brain that is shackled to a beautiful lie.

I prefer the ugly truth.

-Robert

And you're admitting that you have placed FAITH in the theory of evolution. All those science teachers apparently bullied you into no longer asking questions. *sigh*

 

[Genesys]

So, you've never seen a geometric proof? Why am I not surprised....

dont cross the thin line of mathematics and science. theyre two intertwined, but very different fields of study. mathematics is not science, but science is mathematics.

and yes i have, i remember them being a scourge in high school geometry class.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Hehe....you people and your "science requires faith" line. The whole point of science is to generate and use data to prove or disprove theories. You put as much weight behind the theory as there is current scientific data for it whereas you fundamentalists are still stuck with the same old book and just find new and exciting ways to misinterpret its contents to supports your social views.

lol, you people that believe science is the only answer crack me up. If youre going to believe that, you need to get one thing straight, in science nothing is proven. What you're supposed to do is formulate a hypothesis and then test it. After that, your results either support your hypothesis or thwart your hypothesis. Then other people take the results of your experiment [hopefully you're a great record keeper] and then they conduct the same experiment you did. If their results came up different than yours, then you have two [or more] conflicting views on your hypothesis.

Oh well, after a while, if your hypothesis is found to be supported by the results of your experimentation [and theres no one that has conducted the same experiment and gotten conflicting results] you can change your hypothesis from being a hypothesis to a theorey. Now then, theoreys arent exactly laws either, now are they? For a theorey to become a law, the theorey has got to work out 100% of the time, with no conflicting results whatsoever.

So, in a nutshell, continually working on a problem or question until you get it. Sounds better than rereading the SAME MADE-UP BOOK for the 10,000th time looking for new things to misinterpret and take out of context to address issues and questions.

Uh...yeah. Science vs. Mostly Fictional Book Describing All-Powerful Diety Who Never Seems To Do Anything. Very ironic.

i'll take the Mostly Fictional Book Describing All-Powerful Diety Who Never Seems To Do Anything over science any day. At least religion trys to tell me how I might be able to attain salvation, whereas science never seems to do anything except drive people apart. You want to see a fierce debate? Go watch some poor Christian schmuk try to argue his case against a 'highly enlightened' scientist. All you'll see is this highly englihtened scientist pounding scientific fact [

] into this poor guys face and screaming about how this poor christian fellow is so ignorant. At least the Christian fellow has humility and maners.[/quote]
Religion? Bring people together? Sure, so long as you believe in the right god, and worship that god in the correct way, and aren't the wrong color, or otherwise think differently than me.

Oh, and prove that the God of Chrisitianity doesnt do anything. You cant, can you? Theres not a single tool in your scientific tool bag that enables you to disprove God. All you can do is blather on about how illogical it is and how science is the only way.

No, I can look around for evidence of God. A quick scan of the headlines reveals widespread death and destruction (often in the name of God, interestingly). Where's the love and unity? Where's God?

Keep studying pseudoscience. If you think that God created the universe, where did God come from?

we dont know, I suppose God has always has been and always will be. Presuming that Christianity is correct, we'll be able to ask God when we die, wont we?



Oh well, IMO, science is here to back religion up, not to try and thwart religion [like what seems to be popular these days]. Oh well, people can use anything for anything other than their intended purpose, cant they? People can use a car to run someone over and kill them, people can use a baseball bat to smash their skull in, so why cant scientists use science to try and thwart religion?[/quote]
See, that's just it. We DON'T F*CKING CARE ABOUT RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU DON'T USE IT TO TRAMPLE AND CENSOR SCIENCE. Evolutionary theory is not a reaction to creationism, it's the other way around. We want to know how and why man is as he is, you just want to poke holes in our work and state "God did this. That's all you need to know." over and over and over.

Oh, and for another comment, I really don't think that man has evolved, but rather adapted to fit any troubles that have arisen.

Um yeah. I think you're on to something.

 

[chess9]

Genesys:

Bwuahahaha!

Whatever....sheezh. I am constantly amazed....

You gotta' love this forum. They let almost anyone play and "anyone" will say almost "anything"....

You didn't get Boyle's Law in chemistry class?

-Robert

 

[kage69]

i'll take the Mostly Fictional Book Describing All-Powerful Diety Who Never Seems To Do Anything over science any day.[science hasn't threatened me with burning in hell - best play it safe] At least religion trys to tell me how I might be able to attain salvation [if it's written in a book, then it must be true!], whereas science never seems to do anything except drive people apart. [medicine, physics, chemistry, architecture, biology, agrigculture..yeah, I can see why those could be mistaken for holy wars, inquisitions, and people being burned at the stake.] You want to see a fierce debate? [Sure.] Watch some poor Christian schmuk try to argue his case against a 'highly enlightened' scientist. All you'll see is this highly englihtened scientist pounding scientific fact into this poor guys face and screaming about how this poor christian fellow is so ignorant. At least the Christian fellow has humility and maners. [Actually, I've been to many debates and seminars where just such a duo were up on the stage. The 'poor christian schmucks' usually show up with PowerPoint presentations, props, and several busloads of fellow parishioners. The professors representing the other corner were able to debate freehand, and almost always were more articulate and insightful than the church boys. The christians were the only ones who lost their tempers and made themselves look like asses, but to their credit, they did apologize after all instances of said behavior. Unfortunetly, their supporters in the crowd were another matter.

 

[Genesys]

No, I can look around for evidence of God. A quick scan of the headlines reveals widespread death and destruction (often in the name of God, interestingly). Where's the love and unity? Where's God?

Dont confuse acts of God and acts done in God's name. People that do things in the name of God are usually wrong, especially if it involves war. Were the Crusades done in the name of God? Yes. Was it right or Gods will? No. How you ask? If it were God's will that the Crusaders take back the Holy City from the Muslims, it would have taken 3 Crusades, now would it? I imagine God is in heaven shaking his head. and wondering why he gave humanity free will.

Religion? Bring people together? Sure, so long as you believe in the right god, and worship that god in the correct way, and aren't the wrong color, or otherwise think differently than me.

Well, the Catholics and Protestants seem to have a lot of love for one another and the rest of the world. The Mormons seem to want to help everyone, reguardless of if they want help or not. The Muslims seem pretty united behind their faith. Yeah, id say that faith unites those people pretty well. However, just like brothers, their differeing faiths drive thos people apart. Its when the big groups of faith learn to get along that we'll see the love.

See, that's just it. We DON'T F*CKING CARE ABOUT RELIGION AS LONG AS YOU DON'T USE IT TO TRAMPLE AND CENSOR SCIENCE. Evolutionary theory is not a reaction to creationism, it's the other way around. We want to know how and why man is as he is, you just want to poke holes in our work and state "God did this. That's all you need to know." over and over and over.

a bit of a conspiricy theorist are we? iv'e seen no religion that is trying to censor science. if youre going to try to refer to the various Christian orginizations that want evolution banned from school, i think its a right idea. wait untill the kid is (a) old enough to comprehend the data and make his own conclusions AND (b) dont do it in school, kids take everything in school believeing they are the Bible truth
I guess what im trying to say is, let the people learn about Evolution just like they learn about God and creationist ideas, outside the wall of school.

Um yeah. I think you're on to something.

wow, thanks for your valuable contribution to this argument

without it, this argument would have no direction whatsoever.