Every vice used to be a virtue.

[Lemon law]

True or not, we have all heard that old folk wisdom that every vice used to be a virtue.

And now I will try to apply that in maybe the most contentious and emotional charged region on Earth, the mid -east, in the most unbiased way I can.

And I think its fair to state, almost everyone in the USA believes that Israeli has a right to exist, but the degree to which we make that Israeli right to exist unconditional, is where many of us differ.

But to state my thread question, in the 1948 time frame, after the UN proclaimed the existence of the Israeli State, Israel had every right to resist being driven into the sea by invading armies, and as such the reliance on Israeli military might and military superiority was undeniably an Israeli virtue.

But at what time does that former virtue turn into an Israeli vice and handicap?

After all, no nation, especially a small population nation like Israel, can forever remain on a perpetual war footing. And this is better off making peace with its neighbors, not just on its terms, but on the the mutually agreed terms of its neighbors. With many Arab nations stating their willingness to accept the right of Israeli to exist, but not solely on a best case scenario for Israel basis.

Yet after 62 years, Israel and its current strategy has failed to find a single reliable friend in the entire mid-east, and worse yet is losing international support. Especially over this new Gaza blockade and Israeli unwillingness to give back any disputed land . As it relies on that now possible vice of military superiority protecting Israel from the obligation to be realistic or pragmatic.

As OP on this thread, I will let this forum discuss the question.

 

[Jaskalas]

And this is better off making peace with its neighbors, not just on its terms, but on the the mutually agreed terms of its neighbors

If that neighbor is Palestine and it has terms that cannot be met?

 

[Danube]

Imagine New Jersey sending 8000 rockets into New York City and New York City loses "world support". I say most of the world is rotten and the UN proves it. Even Kofi Annan said the UN embarrassed itself when it's "human rights" initiatives and councils always became Israel hate fests. Hating on Jews is most ancient hate of all.

 

[sandorski]

The problem with the Israeli State is that it was made by displacing a People. Is that Justified and if so, why?

It is clear that the Displaced need a State also and as the original intent was, those Displaced were granted a State along with Israel. Until that State is also in existence, Peace for Israel is a pipe dream.

 

[Infohawk]

Imagine New Jersey sending 8000 rockets into New York City and New York City loses "world support".

I would ask what happened before the rockets started flying.

 

[Genx87]

Imagine New Jersey sending 8000 rockets into New York City and New York City loses "world support". I say most of the world is rotten and the UN proves it. Even Kofi Annan said the UN embarrassed itself when it's "human rights" initiatives and councils always became Israel hate fests. Hating on Jews is most ancient hate of all.

Oh is that what he thought made the UN rotten? I figured it was when Iran is on the Womens Rights comission and Libya heads up the Human Rights Commission.

 

[Noobtastic]

The problem with the Israeli State is that it was made by displacing a People. Is that Justified and if so, why?

you're right, the jews were displaced and sent to israel.

the arabs were offered a state, they said no, they lost during their invasion.

they weren't passive victims to an invasion.

unlike say, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Muslim world, half of Europe, etc...all predicated on the exploitation, genocide, or as you say..."displacement" of its original inhabitants.

Does the USA have no right to exist too, because our existence is based on the displacement of people - people who are still displaced and left to rot on reserves (in fact, palestinians have a higher standard of living than native americans).

you tell me.

 

[Danube]

I would ask what happened before the rockets started flying.

New York would have turned over the land the rockets came from - like Israel gavce up Gaza (and shouldn't have because Pals are homicidal. Only an awful culture dresses babies up like suicide bombers )

 

[Lemon law]

As OP on this thread, I had hoped that that this thread would take a little higher intellectual
direction than it has thus far.

But to somehow alter the direction of this thread, maybe I was remiss in not explaining
how I had hoped this thread would go.

There are lots of histories of the Jewish people through the at least its four thousand year plus history, some more biased than others, but I will only link in this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history

If nothing else, it shows, at least during the sub set of time in which the Jewish people were the proverbial big fish in the little pond that amounted to the holy land of Israel, their set of problems are not unlike the set of problems they have today.

In short, its one thing to be the biggest fish in a small pond, but at least twice in their ancient history, the Jews messed with real deal major powers, basically real big fish from much larger oceans, they were no contest crushed. I hope no one calls it antisemitism to note the that among those major powers, were the Babylonians and finally the Romans. And if nothing else, we can all realize that the Romans, after the Jews got on their last nerve, that are responsible for the so called second diaspora that basically banished most of the Jews from Israel for almost all of the last 1800 years.

And now, the same as the ancient then, the Jews within Israel share the same handicaps.

1. A low population meaning they can never hope to compete with real deal major powers with populations 60X or more larger that is also willing to invest in guns and not butter.

2. Worse yet, a very small geographical area, making it impossible to survive a war of attrition like Russia did against a much stronger Napoleon or Hitler. Nor can Israel hope to gain much of a buffer zone or attain natural defense barriers like England had in the English Channel. With most of point#2 factors arguing for a strong offense and defense.

3. But at what point does the strong defense become a handicap for Israel unless its willing to convert its hostile neighbors into friends? As it is, Israel is still just a big fish in a small pond, and any number of existing major world powers, can still step on Israel like an ant on the sidewalk. Worse yet, when new Merchant nations like China look for buyers all over the world, Israel can't compete for attention or friendship, the Arab world has many hundreds of millions of consumers able to buy Chinese goods, and Israel has only seven million consumers at best.

 

[Noobtastic]

i think lemon law just likes listening to the sound of his own voice.

 

[PJABBER]

i think lemon law just likes listening to the sound of his own voice.

LL has expressed a viewpoint that a small country with a small population like Israel cannot, over time, stand up to the massive population and resource base of the Islamic countries that wish its destruction.

His is the fatal argument that accommodation and subservience will serve better than active resistance.

He argues that Israel must return all lands captured from victory over those enemies that sought to invade and destroy the Israeli state.

He also advocates for the right of all people that voluntarily left Israel before and after the State's founding to return and establish themselves as full fledged citizens, effectively outnumbering the current citizenry by a ratio of two to one.

His is an ever so practical vision that the Israeli state can best be destroyed by their acquiescence to all of the demands, no matter how extreme, made by every anti-Israeli faction in the world.

Ain't gonna happen unless six million Israelis somehow wake up one morning and decide they really, really need to give it all up and march ever so willingly into the gas ovens once again.

 

[nageov3t]

correct me if I'm wrong, but is Lemon arguing that the strongest democracy in the middle east should kowtow and be subservient to some of the most despicable regimes on the planet because they've got more territory than them?

rehashing the events over Israel's foundation post-WW2 seems like a fool's game unless you're planning on giving your home and property away to a native american family tomorrow. what's done is done.

 

[FaaR]

Imagine New Jersey sending 8000 rockets into New York City

What, all at once?

Imagine NJ sending 8000 crude, unguided rockets spread out over a period of many years, some of them killing people here and there but most of them not hitting anything of any particular importance, and NY responding with hellfire-carrying gunships, artillery, cluster bombs dropped from aircraft, tanks and so on, killing ~100x the number of people the rockets did. All the while upholding a siege on NJ, not allowing anything but small amounts of emergency relief into the state while the people of NJ live in absolute squalor, virtually no clean water, electricity, sanitation...while at the same time uprooting people from their land and building walled-in colonies complete with armed guards on NJ territory, all funded by NY tax money and international donations.

You think there might be a chance NY would lose international support under those conditions, or do you only like your analogies when they're being blatantly one-sided?

Hating on Jews is most ancient hate of all.

Hating on jews is most certainly not the most ancient hate of all. We humans have hated on those belonging to different tribes LONG before there even were any jews.

Furthermore, criticizing the Israeli government for its handling of the palestinian situation and the occupied territories is not equal to "hating on jews".

 

[EagleKeeper]

True or not, we have all heard that old folk wisdom that every vice used to be a virtue.

And now I will try to apply that in maybe the most contentious and emotional charged region on Earth, the mid -east, in the most unbiased way I can.

And I think its fair to state, almost everyone in the USA believes that Israeli has a right to exist, but the degree to which we make that Israeli right to exist unconditional, is where many of us differ.

But to state my thread question, in the 1948 time frame, after the UN proclaimed the existence of the Israeli State, Israel had every right to resist being driven into the sea by invading armies, and as such the reliance on Israeli military might and military superiority was undeniably an Israeli virtue.

But at what time does that former virtue turn into an Israeli vice and handicap?

After all, no nation, especially a small population nation like Israel, can forever remain on a perpetual war footing. And this is better off making peace with its neighbors, not just on its terms, but on the the mutually agreed terms of its neighbors. With many Arab nations stating their willingness to accept the right of Israeli to exist, but not solely on a best case scenario for Israel basis.

Yet after 62 years, Israel and its current strategy has failed to find a single reliable friend in the entire mid-east, and worse yet is losing international support. Especially over this new Gaza blockade and Israeli unwillingness to give back any disputed land . As it relies on that now possible vice of military superiority protecting Israel from the obligation to be realistic or pragmatic.

As OP on this thread, I will let this forum discuss the question.

• There is the issue that 2 neighboring nation states have not either made peace with Israel and/or are still continuing to attack her.
  
• You have a seperate organized group that is still dedicated to the destruction of Israel & supported by nation states.
  
• You have a group of nations that publicly declare for the destruction of Israel. IE not acknowledging the right to exist.

When Yugoslavia and Checkoslovakia were broken up; there was not a condemnation to destroy one of the new states by the Muslim or Christian communities/nations.

The UN even had to intervene to prevent genocide in some areas; but each new country was allowed to have self defense against anyone that was attacking them.


Yet Israel is being condemned for having a self defense against groups that attack her

Israel can not relax her guard until a viable solution exists for her safety.
At this point of time, it has been demonstrated that the UN WILL NOT come to her aid when attacked.