• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Every dark cloud has a silver lining.......

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: Wheezer

If a shitty economy does what the US government is unwilling or incapable of doing as far as illegal immigration....let the Dow drop like a rock.

Text
We will also see the liberal job market tank. Many of the little useless non profit jobs and bubble economy service jobs will soon go pfffft.

 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: Wheezer

If a shitty economy does what the US government is unwilling or incapable of doing as far as illegal immigration....let the Dow drop like a rock.

Text
We will also see the liberal job market tank. Many of the little useless non profit jobs and bubble economy service jobs will soon go pfffft.
Thank goodness your business will survive as people will always need a place to park their cars.

 

Butterbean

Banned
Oct 12, 2006
918
1
0
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Again, keep in mind.........Mexico just happens to be adjacent to us........AND happens to carry a plethra of low income people exploited by their own corrupt government who happen to find it convenient to come to the land of opportunity, welfare, taxless work, free scooling and medical care.

And that's the problem.

And remember that NONE of these numbers represent the threats to national security

The illegals are a burden - but they seem often to be better family people than average Americans. They appreciate their kids and are less likely to let public schools turn their kids into
weirdos and tramps.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Again, keep in mind.........Mexico just happens to be adjacent to us........AND happens to carry a plethra of low income people exploited by their own corrupt government who happen to find it convenient to come to the land of opportunity, welfare, taxless work, free scooling and medical care.

And that's the problem.

And remember that NONE of these numbers represent the threats to national security

The illegals are a burden - but they seem often to be better family people than average Americans. They appreciate their kids and are less likely to let public schools turn their kids into
weirdos and tramps.
Well at least the one you under pay to be your parking attendent.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,345
24
81
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Anybody notice the problem with the original taint's post? The typical conservative argument against illegal immigration is that "it hurts the economy!" But OP says a bad economy is good to the extent it gets rid of them pesky messicans?

The entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism
. At least O.P.A is honest about it.
Wow, broad generalizations and sweeping stereotypes for $1000, Alex. It's good to see whole social debates/issues taken off the table because of ignorance and intimidation.

You may make claims of "coded racism" yet I see a lot more "uncoded stupidity" coming from yourself.

Proud Liberal, huh?
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
57,421
5,762
126
Originally posted by: Butterbean
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Again, keep in mind.........Mexico just happens to be adjacent to us........AND happens to carry a plethra of low income people exploited by their own corrupt government who happen to find it convenient to come to the land of opportunity, welfare, taxless work, free scooling and medical care.

And that's the problem.

And remember that NONE of these numbers represent the threats to national security

The illegals are a burden - but they seem often to be better family people than average Americans. They appreciate their kids and are less likely to let public schools turn their kids into
weirdos and tramps.
That's why so many of them turn into gang-bangers...:roll:

Living in an area that is heavily Hispanic, I see the parents letting the boys run wild. "Boys will be boys," seems to be the prevalant attitude, but they try to keep a tight reign on the daughters...but they still end up pregnant at 15-16...at a much higher rate than any other ethnic group, except perhaps the blacks in the ghetto...or the Spears family.
 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,096
3
81
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Again, keep in mind.........Mexico just happens to be adjacent to us........AND happens to carry a plethra of low income people exploited by their own corrupt government who happen to find it convenient to come to the land of opportunity, welfare, taxless work, free scooling and medical care.

And that's the problem.

And remember that NONE of these numbers represent the threats to national security
Correct. I have Hispanic friends and neighbors, solid middle class people. If they were white, they would be called racist for their views on this. It's partly a social class problem. I spoke with a Hispanic painter and wallboard man awhile back. Born in Mexico, immigrated legally. The names he called the illegals amazed me. He used to run his own crew, but the illegals undercut his bids, sometimes in half. If you look at the wages of meat packing jobs, you will see a decline there too. There is a reason they call the labor market a market.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
57,421
5,762
126
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Again, keep in mind.........Mexico just happens to be adjacent to us........AND happens to carry a plethra of low income people exploited by their own corrupt government who happen to find it convenient to come to the land of opportunity, welfare, taxless work, free scooling and medical care.

And that's the problem.

And remember that NONE of these numbers represent the threats to national security
Correct. I have Hispanic friends and neighbors, solid middle class people. If they were white, they would be called racist for their views on this. It's partly a social class problem. I spoke with a Hispanic painter and wallboard man awhile back. Born in Mexico, immigrated legally. The names he called the illegals amazed me. He used to run his own crew, but the illegals undercut his bids, sometimes in half. If you look at the wages of meat packing jobs, you will see a decline there too. There is a reason they call the labor market a market.
Here also. MOST of the Hispanic people we know have nothing good to say about their illegal immigrant cousins. Most of the other folks we know with legal immigrant pasts get pissed over the subject of illegal immigration. They all waited their turns, paid their fees, and came her legally, then, when they could, became US citizens. The thought of the illegals basically jumping ahead of the line or going around the line, makes them all mad as hell.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Anybody notice the problem with the original taint's post? The typical conservative argument against illegal immigration is that "it hurts the economy!" But OP says a bad economy is good to the extent it gets rid of them pesky messicans?

The entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism
. At least O.P.A is honest about it.
Wow, broad generalizations and sweeping stereotypes for $1000, Alex. It's good to see whole social debates/issues taken off the table because of ignorance and intimidation.

You may make claims of "coded racism" yet I see a lot more "uncoded stupidity" coming from yourself.

Proud Liberal, huh?
Are you proud to be a disingenuous conservative myrmidon? Are you proud that you freely use the term "uncoded stupidity" but also claim I am generalizing a group of people when in fact I am summing up an argument? You being an idiot, you'll claim that's meaningless.

Have fun carrying on with your worthless life.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,345
24
81
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Anybody notice the problem with the original taint's post? The typical conservative argument against illegal immigration is that "it hurts the economy!" But OP says a bad economy is good to the extent it gets rid of them pesky messicans?

The entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism
. At least O.P.A is honest about it.
Wow, broad generalizations and sweeping stereotypes for $1000, Alex. It's good to see whole social debates/issues taken off the table because of ignorance and intimidation.

You may make claims of "coded racism" yet I see a lot more "uncoded stupidity" coming from yourself.

Proud Liberal, huh?
Are you proud to be a disingenuous conservative myrmidon? Are you proud that you freely use the term "uncoded stupidity" but also claim I am generalizing a group of people when in fact I am summing up an argument? You being an idiot, you'll claim that's meaningless.

Have fun carrying on with your worthless life.
:confused:

Awesome... according to you, the entire argument against illegal immigration is racist AND my life is worthless. Obviously you know so much about both :laugh: Any more profound insights you'd like to share?

Proud Liberal, huh? :roll:
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,083
189
106
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Given a choice I'll take a strong economy and illegal immigrants any day.
yep... Any day.

I also heard that the military is reaching all of it's quota's due to a piss poor economy. Since, no jobs. Might as well sign up!

Have we got a job for YOU! :p
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Spend some time in a border state and it might change your mind.

Hospital Costs


This link is just about maternity costs, not other costs incurred in the emergency room for routine visits.

By the way, my "racist" Hispanic neighbor sent me this link awhile back.
You seem to have failed to notice a little statement in that article:

Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes, through paycheck deductions or property taxes included in their rent, adminstrators at the Dallas and Fort Worth hospitals said. At both institutions, they have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said.
I guess this means we should kick out those low-income, deadbeat Americans, right?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Butterbean
The illegals are a burden -
This is an unsubstantiated opinion. Show me a well-researched study that demonstrates that illegals take more out of the U.S. economy than they put in.

 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,096
3
81
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Spend some time in a border state and it might change your mind.

Hospital Costs


This link is just about maternity costs, not other costs incurred in the emergency room for routine visits.

By the way, my "racist" Hispanic neighbor sent me this link awhile back.
You seem to have failed to notice a little statement in that article:

Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes, through paycheck deductions or property taxes included in their rent, adminstrators at the Dallas and Fort Worth hospitals said. At both institutions, they have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said.
I guess this means we should kick out those low-income, deadbeat Americans, right?
Nope. Noticed it just fine. Let's take care of our own citizens and legal immigrants before we extend it to others.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Anybody notice the problem with the original taint's post? The typical conservative argument against illegal immigration is that "it hurts the economy!" But OP says a bad economy is good to the extent it gets rid of them pesky messicans?

The entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism
. At least O.P.A is honest about it.
Wow, broad generalizations and sweeping stereotypes for $1000, Alex. It's good to see whole social debates/issues taken off the table because of ignorance and intimidation.

You may make claims of "coded racism" yet I see a lot more "uncoded stupidity" coming from yourself.

Proud Liberal, huh?
Are you proud to be a disingenuous conservative myrmidon? Are you proud that you freely use the term "uncoded stupidity" but also claim I am generalizing a group of people when in fact I am summing up an argument? You being an idiot, you'll claim that's meaningless.

Have fun carrying on with your worthless life.
:confused:

Awesome... according to you, the entire argument against illegal immigration is racist AND my life is worthless. Obviously you know so much about both :laugh: Any more profound insights you'd like to share?

Proud Liberal, huh? :roll:

Care to defend the argument and/or the OP? Care to say something of substance rather than anecdotal evidence of substance abuse??
 

scruffypup

Senior member
Feb 3, 2006
371
0
0
I find it disturbing the amount of people that think illegal immigrants in our nation helps the economy and the stereotype that the illegals are good, hard working people.

1) The to 5 states for identity theft each year over the last 10 years per capita, includes Arizona at #1, followed closely by Nevada, California, Texas in the top 5 year after year. Wonder Why?

2) Many illegals work, abide by laws and pay taxes, but many don't, and their family members in both situations tend to collect food stamps and other government assistance without paying into the system what they collect as a whole.

3) The children often don't speak english to begin with, or have trouble speaking it since it is not the native language in the household, many states, Arizona is a great example have to spend much of their educational dollars just to get these kids the ability to speak english,... an additional burden on citizens paying their due in taxes that doesn't go for the greater good of citizens.

4) Many illegals take advantage of free healthcare,.. in Arizona if they are low wage earners, it is Ahcccs,... I am sure many states have these types of programs, and hospitals cannot refuse health care,... it drives up health care costs, and health care insurance rates (ever wonder why health care is skyrocketing,.. here is part of the answer)

5) The more residents,.... illegal or not,.. the more cost on infrastructure,.. roads, police, fire, etc,... if illegals don't pay into the system what they burden on the system,... it is again a net loss,.. and burden on taxpayers

6) Illegals tend to have lower education levels and take lower wage jobs,... this tends to place a pressure on lower end jobs to stay lower or move lower,.. these jobs don't pay more over time since there is such an influx coming in to take it for the same wage as last year,... this hurts legal citizens with lower education, lower skills, etc, trying to start off and move up

7) Many Americans ARE willing to do these jobs that some people say we are not,... it was common place for us to be doing them prior to the wave of illegals flooded us so badly the last decade. There are many that are displaced and lose their jobs each year to an illegal.

8) There was a study in Arizona recently released,... 19% of all felonies were committed by illegals,.. they do commit crime,... not just here to work.... let me expand on that

In 2007, 4 Phoenix police officers were shot and killed,... 3 were by illegals,...
Numerous crimes of sexual molestation were committed on minors in 2007 by illegals,.. that were caught,...
The drug pipeline comes from and through Mexico,... don't you think many of the illegals that come from Mexico and other central/south American countries will be importing those drugs and setting up shop here,... there is no statistic for that, that is just common sense
Phoenix is now the kidnap capital of the United States,... many are "coyotes" (smugglers of illegals) then holding captive the illegals for ransom,...

The price of food would not skyrocket as the common ignorant people want us to believe if we didn't have this cheap labor,.. our economy would adjust,....think about this,... if lettuce (which is labor intensive) were to become to expensive,.. people would not buy it and eat other things,.. suppliers would grow other crops like corn to make profit,... south of the border (or other countries where costs are lower) you would find new suppliers come forth to fill the hole. If it went south of the border to Mexico, they would have a benefit to their economy as they would have more jobs to farm lettuce there and export it to the United States,.. this would then in turn help the Mexican economy and start lessining the need for their cititzens to come here to find work,... that is one example, but very valid.

These are just some quick things,.. I could go further as I see this happening everyday here in Arizona. It has nothing to do with being racist as some want to throw out so quickly. It has a lot to do with people being fed up, regardless of race or country of origin (many of the illegals are not Mexican, they are further south in central and south America, but of course some will say it is still racist, hardly, I would feel the same if Canadians were invading us in this manner, or any other race, it won't happen because africans, asians, etc would have a much harder time crossing an ocean then crossing the border, but it does happen)

Now pointing this to the OP's point of view,.. they are leaving or not invading as badly,... it can actually help our economy in the long run by not having this influx,... or at least if not considering that,.. at least we are not having to deal with it as much, alleviating the frustration we have endured,... that is the OP point,...

Comments from those people like "shira" are ignorant
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
0
Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Anybody notice the problem with the original taint's post? The typical conservative argument against illegal immigration is that "it hurts the economy!" But OP says a bad economy is good to the extent it gets rid of them pesky messicans?

The entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism. At least O.P.A is honest about it.
No, not really, I never said pesky Mexicans, I said ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

Come here legally, no problem...congratulations...now enjoy your opportunity.

and no, I don't need to speak in "code"......if I wanted to use the term beloved patriot, beautiful ray of sunshine, bean picker or border jumper I would I did not and neither did the article.....I think you need to return your magic decoder ring for a refund....it's broken.

scruffypup....stop it....you're making too much sense.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Leave it to George Bush to ruin the country enough that Mexicans don't want to come. If McSame wins we'll see Gringos heading south of the border in four more years.
We're not gonna head south, we're gonna head north to Canada. Canada will be to Americans as America is to Mexicans. Look out Canadians, we are coming!
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: shira
If America wants to return to greatness, it will open the floodgates to immigrants. I await a non-partisan analysis that demonstrates that even illegal immigration is a net plus to the U.S. economy.

Immigrants, even illegals, are good for the U.S. The popular attitude against illegals is just scapegoating.
Could you explain the logic of how importing impoverished people into the country helps the country? How does having to provide even more free health care, education, and criminal justice improve the nation's economy? Even if the illegals work low-wage jobs and can barely support themselves, you still have to support all of the displaced Americans who might otherwise do those jobs.

Furthermore, how do you account for the negative economic effects of population explosion? How to you account for the costs of the resulting environmental strain and degradation and increasing prices for scarce natural resources (such as oil, water, natural gas, timber, and worthwhile land)?
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
A lot of you computer engineering nerds worried about Illegal Immigrants crossing the border and doing your job for less?
What happens if the likes of carpenters and meat packers decide to listen to the media and the politicians and then go to school to train for hot jobs in computer fields? They then offer to do the same jobs the computer engineers are doing for 1/3 of the wages.

Contrary to popular belief, the job market is not divided into discrete parts that cannot interact with one another, rather, it's one big whole because people can always train to enter different parts of the market.

But let's pretend, just for a moment, that the loss of construction jobs and meatpacking jobs and other jobs to illegal aliens or legal immigrants had no effect on the computer engineering job market. Wouldn't the computer engineers have to pay increased taxes to cover the costs of social welfare programs to take care of all the Americans who were either displaced from those jobs or had their wages reduced to poverty-level wages? Wouldn't they also have to pay the increased cost of being subject to higher crime rates as a result of having more Americans living in poverty, etc.? What about the costs of population explosion?

Make an effort to think about these issues from different angles. You can't just look at the convenient front-end cost savings but also need to consider the invisible and conveniently ignored back-end costs.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: quest55720
Good make building a fence across the boarder easier. We need to get on that fence ASAP and use the military to patrol the boarder. Then start to deport the illegals we have already. If they want to come legally great. To bad the democrats don't have the stones to stand up to the illegal problem. We will have 4 more years of illegals being a drain on the health care system.
Why are you blaming the Democrats? Have you paid any attention to Bush's endorsement of an illegal alien amnesty bill? The Republicans deserve a huge amount of blame, too. Ever heard of the Juan McAmnesty-Kennedy illegal alien amnesty bill?

In addition to enforcing our borders and to making invaders suffer penalties for invading, we also need to criminally and financially punish employers who flout our laws and hire illegals.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: StoneburnerThe entire illegal immigration argument is coded racism.
It sure is easier to label opposition to illegal immigration and mass legal immigration as excrement-grubbing racism and xenophobia than it is to address the substantive economic and environmental issues, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just label any substantive argument we disagreed with as being "motivated by racism" and make it go away? Then we could all think touchy-feely warm-n-fuzzy politically correct thoughts instead of having to address reality.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,429
20
81
Originally posted by: shiraThis is an unsubstantiated opinion. Show me a well-researched study that demonstrates that illegals take more out of the U.S. economy than they put in.
I suggest you look for papers put out by Hispanic Harvard economics professor (and illegal immigration opponent) George Bjoras.

However, a study isn't really needed when simple economic logic will do. The illegal aliens are not working $50,000/year jobs. Rather they are working jobs that pay poverty wages (some of which may have been formerly middle class or lower middle class jobs that were reduced to low wage jobs), therefore they aren't paying much if any money in taxes but still consume health care resources, education resources, and criminal justice resources while also imposing Malthusian costs (population explosion, environmental degradation, increased demand and costs for resources).

Furthermore, presumably many Americans, especially in fields like construction, have been displaced by them and being unemployed or underemployed they too end up consuming more health care and education resources than what they contribute in taxes.

I don't like opposing immigration any more than you do. The idea that people could escape bad governments and come to the U.S. gives me the warm-n-fuzzies too. However, my understanding of the economic aspects of it has led me to oppose mass immigration. It's not a position I wanted to advocate but I feel compelled to do so. I hope that you'll take the time to further investigate the economic and environmental issues associated with mass immigration and runaway population explosion.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY