Ever the human cost of war.

[Perknose]

This bright fine morning as I sat on my back veranda o'erlooking my field, with my tea and my Sunday paper and the radio, at some sort of peace with the world, the haunting words of Sullivan Ballou came flooding through my boom box.

Tears came to my eyes.

I spoke part of his letter to his wife Sarah at the funeral of my wife Jessie, in remembrance and echo of our eternal ties of the soul, not linked to our bodies.

Today, it made me think of the eternal cost of war, the deaths of many good men on all sides, and what an obscenity it can be. For all men on all sides leave their families behind, and go forth to defend their country, their religion, and their ideals, and they lay down their lives for these, in the company of their fellow grunts.

From the yeoman farmers of revolutionary era America, through the Vietnamese patriots who fought first the Japanese, then the French, then we Americans, to all those young Americans themselves, who gave their lives thousands of miles from home; from my father, Lt. Commander George Henry Perkins, no less than the Japanese he faced; from the proud Germans of the Wehrmacht to, yes, the Sunni Iraqis who believe they are throwing off the yoke of the Crusader infidels; WE ARE ALL MEN, and our deaths are mourned by our wives and children, by our heartbroken mothers and fathers, by our towns and friends back home, wherever home may be.

This carnage is the eternal cost of war.

May God forgive George Bush the abysmal ignorance of his frat boy hubris and his stupid, ugly sins, for right now I am having a really hard time doing so myself. 🙁

July 14th, 1861
Washington D.C.

My dear Sarah.

The indications are very strong that we shall move in a few days -- perhaps tomorrow. Lest I should not be able to write you again, I feel impelled to write lines that may fall under your eye when I shall be no more.
Our movement may be one of a few days duration and full of pleasure -- and it may be one of severe conflict and death to me. Not my will, but thine 0 God, be done. If it is necessary that I should fall on the battlefield for my country, I am ready. I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in, the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how strongly American Civilization now leans upon the triumph of the Government, and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and suffering of the Revolution. And I am willing -- perfectly willing -- to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this Government, and to pay that debt.

But, my dear wife, when I know that with my own joys I lay down nearly all of yours, and replace them in this life with cares and sorrows -- when, after having eaten for long years the bitter fruit of orphanage myself, I must offer it as their only sustenance to my dear little children -- is it weak or dishonorable, while the banner of my purpose floats calmly and proudly in the breeze, that my unbounded love for you, my darling wife and children, should struggle in fierce, though useless, contest with my love of country?

I cannot describe to you my feelings on this calm summer night, when two thousand men are sleeping around me, many of them enjoying the last, perhaps, before that of death -- and I, suspicious that Death is creeping behind me with his fatal dart, am communing with God, my country, and thee.

I have sought most closely and diligently, and often in my breast, for a wrong motive in thus hazarding the happiness of those I loved and I could not find one. A pure love of my country and of the principles have often advocated before the people and "the name of honor that I love more than I fear death" have called upon me, and I have obeyed.

Sarah, my love for you is deathless, it seems to bind me to you with mighty cables that nothing but Omnipotence could break; and yet my love of Country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me irresistibly on with all these chains to the battlefield.

The memories of the blissful moments I have spent with you come creeping over me, and I feel most gratified to God and to you that I have enjoyed them so long. And hard it is for me to give them up and burn to ashes the hopes of future years, when God willing, we might still have lived and loved together and seen our sons grow up to honorable manhood around us. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon Divine Providence, but something whispers to me -- perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar -- that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed. If I do not, my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battlefield, it will whisper your name.

Forgive my many faults, and the many pains I have caused you. How thoughtless and foolish I have oftentimes been! How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness, and struggle with all the misfortune of this world, to shield you and my children from harm. But I cannot. I must watch you from the spirit land and hover near you, while you buffet the storms with your precious little freight, and wait with sad patience till we meet to part no more.

But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the garish day and in the darkest night -- amidst your happiest scenes and gloomiest hours -- always, always; and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath; or the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by.

Sarah, do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.

As for my little boys, they will grow as I have done, and never know a father's love and care. Little Willie is too young to remember me long, and my blue-eyed Edgar will keep my frolics with him among the dimmest memories of his childhood. Sarah, I have unlimited confidence in your maternal care and your development of their characters. Tell my two mothers his and hers I call God's blessing upon them. O Sarah, I wait for you there! Come to me, and lead thither my children.

 

[blackangst1]

Can you please name one country who has never lost people to war? Also, can you show me one study that shows how we, the human race, can actually achieve anything without war?

Dont worry I wont hold my breath.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Can you please name one country who has never lost people to war? Also, can you show me one study that shows how we, the human race, can actually achieve anything without war?

Dont worry I wont hold my breath.

While you're holding your breath do some of your own leg work and research it yourself if you are so interested.😀isgust;

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Can you please name one country who has never lost people to war?
Part of MY POINT there, Leroy.

Also, can you show me one study that shows how we, the human race, can actually achieve anything without war?
Gandhi, Jesus Christ, MLK, Mother Theresa, William Shakespeare and Michelangelo have all markedly improved the collective human condition without resort to war, but... HEY, what did THEY know compared to a towering intellect like YOU, right?

Dont worry I wont hold my breath.
Oh, please, please DO.

And thanks fer playin'! :laugh:

 

[jackschmittusa]

The future of this country may hold more of the same. There is a critical value mentioned in the letter that is mostly missing from our culture today.

Ask most parents what they want for their children, and the list will be populated with things like: for them to be successful, for them to have it better than me, a long and happy life, etc..

Something that I doubt would even make such a list today is referenced in the letter: "and seen our sons grow up to honorable manhood around us". We are, and will continue to be poorer, for failing to make such a value prominent in raising our children.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Can you please name one country who has never lost people to war?
Part of MY POINT there, Leroy.

Also, can you show me one study that shows how we, the human race, can actually achieve anything without war?
Gandhi, Jesus Christ, MLK, Mother Theresa, William Shakespeare and Michelangelo have all markedly improved the collective human condition without resort to war, but... HEY, what did THEY know compared to a towering intellect like YOU, right?

Dont worry I wont hold my breath.
Oh, please, please DO.

And thanks fer playin'! :laugh:

Sorry, I was tihnking in terms of countrys, not individuals. And my name aint Leroy. It's skippy.

 

[Lemon law]

We should not fail to note, that this patriotic and idealistic letter, eloquent as it is, was written by someone who probably a total battlefield virgin. And Sullivan Bollou died long before the full fury of the civil war even started to gain hardly any mass. And later men would fear cowardice more than death in Pickets charge, the battle for little roundtop, the stone wall, or the wheat field. But they were still fighting for ideals and home after a long period where less rational politicians failed to agree on reasonable compromise.

How dare we compare that to an optional Iraq war motivated by the greed of oil companies and the stupidities of GWB&co. Its not that our soldiers lack courage and idealism, we just never had the political leadership to match the sacrifice of those who pay the price. How many more must die for their lies.

 

[ProfJohn]

Wow not only is Perknose a ?senior moderator? but she is an ?elite senior moderator? does that mean you can push Red Dawn and Harvey around?

Now I read some where that you and Red Dawn are married, does the Elite thing mean you can threaten to ban Red Dawn if he doesn?t do the dishes? 😀

 

[ProfJohn]

In the 1920s and 1930 isolationism took hold in this country. Following the horrors of WW 1 many people thought that we should not be involving ourselves in the affairs of other countries. Nor should we be involved in their wars. So when Hitler began his march across Europe most Americans didn?t care and did not want to be involved. The net result of this policy was literally millions of lives lost in WW 2.

Had the US stayed involved in European affairs and along with the English and French reacted quickly when Hitler first started violating the Versailles treaty the number of lives that would have been saved could have easily reached into the millions.

My point is that avoiding war for the sake of avoiding war has nearly always resulted in disasters. Belgium declared neutrality before WW 2 and was rewarded when the Nazis used the country as a stepping stone on the way to France. Norway similarly tried to maintain neutrality during WW 2 and also found itself being invaded by Germany as well.

We can?t close our eyes and cross our fingers and hope that the bad guys will go away because they won?t. The only message that aggressors and tyrants understand is one based on the use of force. History illustrates this for us.

 

[piasabird]

What the hell were people from Saudia Arabia Defending when they blew up buildings in New York City?

They simply wanted to kill Americans because they were taught that we are evil. God had nothing to do with that.

 

[jackschmittusa]

At it often happens, ProfJohn seems to have missed the OP's point. I'll try to make it simple.

War involves a lot of really bad consequences for real people. To engage in one for frivolous reasons should be considered repugnant at best, a crime at worst.

 

[yllus]

It's sad because war almost always boils down to a lack and/or failure of communication. They don't understand us, we don't understand them, and quickly enough the only recourse is full-scale violence. Magnifying the tragedy are the Sullivan Ballous of the world who are relatively guiltless in the makings of the conflict.

I still believe that toppling the Saddam regime to allow the Iraqi people some degree of self-determination was a noble thing, however. It's just a shame that they seem to have chosen civil war instead of moving past that into a stable society.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
At it often happens, ProfJohn seems to have missed the OP's point. I'll try to make it simple.

War involves a lot of really bad consequences for real people. To engage in one for frivolous reasons should be considered repugnant at best, a crime at worst.

Hard to argue with the crime part----but why is it that its only the truly eloquent that sing to us
beyond the grave when thousands of others less eloquent rot voiceless in their graves. How was their last full measure of devotion any less wasted?

But its yllus's comment that really hits my hot button when he asserts---I still believe that toppling the Saddam regime to allow the Iraqi people some degree of self-determination was a noble thing, however. It's just a shame that they seem to have chosen civil war instead of moving past that into a stable society.

Which only confuses the fool vs. a criminal argument even more. As Shinseki pointed out, a civil war was the inevitable consequence of going in light. And its not a matter where Shinseki was a genius as it was already accepted military doctrine world wide, its a matter that GWB&co. was a fool. Lets not blame the Iraqi people here. And we are still left with the repugnant and stupid fool or a criminally culpable fool distinction.

We can always ship those responsible in GWB&co. off to the Hague and let them sort it out.

 

[yllus]

I'm sure it does, Lemon law. There seems to be little you're interested in than finding another reason to blame "GWB&co." for all of the world's ills. Perhaps this time in Revisionism 101 the President personally aggravated Sunni/Shiite tensions by not continuing to suppress the majority of Shiites by keeping the minority ruling class intact. In turn, I'd make the case that behaviour apologists like yourself allow third world countries to continue to fester by continually setting low expectations.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
At it often happens, ProfJohn seems to have missed the OP's point. I'll try to make it simple.

War involves a lot of really bad consequences for real people. To engage in one for frivolous reasons should be considered repugnant at best, a crime at worst.

The question is whose definition of ?frivolous? are we going to use?

The problem in Iraq wasn?t the decision to remove Saddam, but the execution of that decision. Since that first decision we have made a string of other mistakes and we are just now finally making the type of progress we should have made years ago.

Also, it is to early to write into the history books that the Iraq invasion was a failure.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
At it often happens, ProfJohn seems to have missed the OP's point. I'll try to make it simple.

War involves a lot of really bad consequences for real people. To engage in one for frivolous reasons should be considered repugnant at best, a crime at worst.

The question is whose definition of ?frivolous? are we going to use?

The problem in Iraq wasn?t the decision to remove Saddam, but the execution of that decision. Since that first decision we have made a string of other mistakes and we are just now finally making the type of progress we should have made years ago.

Also, it is to early to write into the history books that the Iraq invasion was a failure.

The problem with Iraq began at the get go when the administration schemed with complete callousness and cynicism to concoct a slam dunk worth of exaggerations to cajole Americans into supporting the invasion.

Coupled with a copious amount of insinuation of treason toward anyone doubting casus belli from the right wing brain dead legions.