Euthanasia

[Noobtastic]

ive always been a strong opponent of euthanasia.

i believe euthanasia, in combination with a likely soon-to-be revolutionized health care, are incompatible.

government-sanctioned physicians would be compromised. priority would be placed on cost rather than patient and terminally ill or costly subjects would be encouraged/pressured/forced to consider euthanasia.

it's happened in the netherlands anyways...


so what do you guys think?

 

[Fern]

I think you should try it before complaining about it.











J/K

Fern

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: Fern
I think you should try it before complaining about it.











J/K

Fern

low blow man...

 

[blackllotus]

Whats the question? (Is it a slippery slope?)

 

[compuwiz1]

I am pro-right to die. If a person is suffering, terminal, or their quality of life has deminshed to the point that they are useless to themselves and others, I think competent medical professionals should be able to cater to their wishes to die.
I have been supportive of Dr. Kevorkian, because of what he stands for, not because he broke the law.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I am pro-right to die. If a person is suffering, terminal, or their quality of life has deminshed to the point that they are useless to themselves and others, I think competent medical professionals should be able to cater to their wishes to die.
I have been supportive of Dr. Kevorkian, because of what he stands for, not because he broke the law.

but that's just it, competence is hard to come by. and do you trust the state to prioritize patient over cost?

they'll be paying the bills....

 

[cwjerome]

If people have a Right to Life -like it says in the DoI- shouldn't they have the right to decide to end it? It seems to me this prohibition stems from old, religious thinking about suicide. The idea that the government owns your life is kinda sketchy... let's keep moving forward when it comes to individual freedom.

 

[sandorski]

Make it the decision of the Patient, but provide a Legal avenue to prevent a Patient from choosing poorly. For eg a) Patient is terminally Ill with months to live and their death will be drawn out and painful. Grant them Euthanasia if they choose it; b) Patient becomes Disabled, but is Healthy otherwise. The Courts step in to stop them.; c) Patient has a Legally acceptable request not to be kept alive if ever becoming a veggie. Grant the Euthanasia.

Never leave it up to a Health Professional to decide.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
If people have a Right to Life -like it says in the DoI- shouldn't they have the right to decide to end it? It seems to me this prohibition stems from old, religious thinking about suicide. The idea that the government owns your life is kinda sketchy... let's keep moving forward when it comes to individual freedom.

the concrete opposition does not lie in the concept of the right to die...but the properties that would be necessary for it to exist...

 

[teclis1023]

I support an individual's right to decide when their life should end.

 

[Double Trouble]

Personally, I don't see any reason why someone who does not want to continue living -- for whatever reason -- should be forced to. So long as you don't harm anyone else, I'm fine with whatever decision you make on whether you want to continue living.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: teclis1023
I support an individual's right to decide when their life should end.

Yep. Whether it's jumping on a grenade to save your buddies, pulling the plug on a terminal illness, or blowing your head off because you lost your money, a person's life is their own. I understand laws that keep people from hurting themselves because it could harm others... but if it doesn't harm others then let it be.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: teclis1023
I support an individual's right to decide when their life should end.

Yep. Whether it's jumping on a grenade to save your buddies, pulling the plug on a terminal illness, or blowing your head off because you lost your money, a person's life is their own. I understand laws that keep people from hurting themselves because it could harm others... but if it doesn't harm others then let it be.

Agreed with both of you. I don't believe a physician should be required to help, but if one is willing to help a sick patient it should be legal.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

but that's just it, competence is hard to come by. and do you trust the state to prioritize patient over cost?

they'll be paying the bills....

The government also foots the bill for prisons and you don't see them executing tens of thousands of prisoners, do you?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: tagej
Personally, I don't see any reason why someone who does not want to continue living -- for whatever reason -- should be forced to. So long as you don't harm anyone else, I'm fine with whatever decision you make on whether you want to continue living.

I agree. Sadly, today people who want to die have no choice but to kill themselves in grisly manners because some folks think that the government and society own people. In theory, in a free society a person should be able to ask a doctor to euthanize him for any reason. What we need is for someone to develop a chemical mixture of easily available household items that works quickly, painlessly, and reliably.

If suicide for anyone over age 18 for any reason were legalized, it would be interesting to see just how many unhappy people would do themselves in. One potential problem is that unhappy people with lots of debts and obligations would off themselves. The involuntary father who doesn't want to pay child support for a child he had wanted aborted or put up for adoption...the college graduate who couldn't find a job and who is now unemployable yet has loads of student loan bills, jilted lovers, and homeless people, etc.

I can see how lots of people would choose suicide over lives that are essentially slavery. Can you imagine how many loans and debts would end up going unpaid and how many people would run up their credit cards for one last big party or vacation of a lifetime before offing themselves?

 

[MovingTarget]

Trying to draw a link between nationalized healthcare, legalization of physician assisted suicide, and the T4 program?

I see there being a danger in that situation if consent cannot be properly documented and verified before euthenasia can be legally administered. If you cannot legally consent, then you really are in a "slippery slope" area. Otherwise, I see no problem.

 

[StageLeft]

Should be allowed.

 

[Noobtastic]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Trying to draw a link between nationalized healthcare, legalization of physician assisted suicide, and the T4 program?

I see there being a danger in that situation if consent cannot be properly documented and verified before euthenasia can be legally administered. If you cannot legally consent, then you really are in a "slippery slope" area. Otherwise, I see no problem.

How can you see no problem?

It's been going on in the Netherlands for ages...why wouldn't it happen here?

health care is already f**ked up as it is....corruption is bound to happen with a government-sanctioned euthanasia.

SLIPPERY. SLOPE.

The government also foots the bill for prisons and you don't see them executing tens of thousands of prisoners, do you?

that's an unfair comparison. please focus.


i think legalizing suicide and having the government support it would only be contributing the vicious cycle. suicide is bad enough as it is...it doesn't deserve any more support.

we've already seen euthanasia in action in a sovereign democratic society...it doesn't work. at least not the way it is portrayed by you guys.

nobody is going to stop people from killing themselves...but the government should not be sanctioning it.

like whipper said, the negatives far outweigh the "right" (to kill yourself).

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Trying to draw a link between nationalized healthcare, legalization of physician assisted suicide, and the T4 program?

I see there being a danger in that situation if consent cannot be properly documented and verified before euthenasia can be legally administered. If you cannot legally consent, then you really are in a "slippery slope" area. Otherwise, I see no problem.

How can you see no problem?

It's been going on in the Netherlands for ages...why wouldn't it happen here?

health care is already f**ked up as it is....corruption is bound to happen with a government-sanctioned euthanasia.

SLIPPERY. SLOPE.

The government also foots the bill for prisons and you don't see them executing tens of thousands of prisoners, do you?

that's an unfair comparison. please focus.


i think legalizing suicide and having the government support it would only be contributing the vicious cycle. suicide is bad enough as it is...it doesn't deserve any more support.

we've already seen euthanasia in action in a sovereign democratic society...it doesn't work. at least not the way it is portrayed by you guys.

nobody is going to stop people from killing themselves...but the government should not be sanctioning it.

like whipper said, the negatives far outweigh the "right" (to kill yourself).

Granted, our health care system is F***ed up, but that is besides the point. I personally think suicide is reprehensible. As a Catholic, I have pretty strong views against it personally, but have a completely different view when it comes to how the legal system should treat it.

The only way that I see a problem is where a situation could arise that the government sanctions a suicide for someone who isn't really capable of making an informed decision for themselves. This amounts to murder imho when that happens as you could have the gvt off'ing people against their will to save a few bucks, silence the political voice of the elderly, or even have family members essentially kill their own in order to save on the same medical bills or collect inheritance a bit earlier. With the consent of a person of sound mind, those concerns are minimal.

You mentioned also that there are serious problems with euthanasia in a modern democratic society. What kind of problems do you speak of? (I assume you are talking about only currently-existing governments, so as not to invoke Godwin's law here...)

 

[BeauJangles]

I have no problems with allowing people to kill themselves. I think, however, that it should be mandatory to meet with a psychologist beforehand for a few sessions. For patients in extreme duress (pain, chronic disease) the process should be expedited, but for the average joe who's just unhappy with his life the process should (intentionally) take time.

Oh, and the psychologist and the procedure should not be covered by health insurance.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Noobtastic

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Trying to draw a link between nationalized healthcare, legalization of physician assisted suicide, and the T4 program?

I see there being a danger in that situation if consent cannot be properly documented and verified before euthenasia can be legally administered. If you cannot legally consent, then you really are in a "slippery slope" area. Otherwise, I see no problem.

How can you see no problem?

It's been going on in the Netherlands for ages...why wouldn't it happen here?

health care is already f**ked up as it is....corruption is bound to happen with a government-sanctioned euthanasia.

SLIPPERY. SLOPE.

The government also foots the bill for prisons and you don't see them executing tens of thousands of prisoners, do you?

that's an unfair comparison. please focus.


i think legalizing suicide and having the government support it would only be contributing the vicious cycle. suicide is bad enough as it is...it doesn't deserve any more support.

we've already seen euthanasia in action in a sovereign democratic society...it doesn't work. at least not the way it is portrayed by you guys.

nobody is going to stop people from killing themselves...but the government should not be sanctioning it.

like whipper said, the negatives far outweigh the "right" (to kill yourself).

Whoa down thar...what's going on in the Netherlands?

 

[Noobtastic]

Granted, our health care system is F***ed up, but that is besides the point.

how so? that's the whole point.

I personally think suicide is reprehensible. As a Catholic, I have pretty strong views against it personally, but have a completely different view when it comes to how the legal system should treat it.

my main beef isn't with suicide itself.

The only way that I see a problem is where a situation could arise that the government sanctions a suicide for someone who isn't really capable of making an informed decision for themselves.

or maybe they are but just don't want it. get it?

slippery slope sloppery slope slippery slope.

giving the government the power to regulate the ending of others is beyond frightening. it makes me want to watch logan's run or blade runner or 1984 or something creepy freaky future-gone-to-shit movie.

This amounts to murder imho when that happens as you could have the gvt off'ing people against their will to save a few bucks, silence the political voice of the elderly, or even have family members essentially kill their own in order to save on the same medical bills or collect inheritance a bit earlier. With the consent of a person of sound mind, those concerns are minimal.

uhhh ok?

You mentioned also that there are serious problems with euthanasia in a modern democratic society. What kind of problems do you speak of?

netherlands. many cases where terminally ill patients or people who cannot make an informed decisions have been solicited by health agencies to consider euthanasia. universal health care means government is footing the bill. why should they cover the costs of someone who has a 100% chance of dying?

i think euthanasia has been suspended in the country in light of this but im not so sure..you know how it is.

europe!


in that case, the government should be advocating hospice. for the few % who are truly in a lot of pain and are at the age where suicide could be considered acceptable euthanasia is obviously appealing, but a law like that would affect everything.

the privilege would be aimed at the target group, but in reality would end up everywhere. cancer patients would demand euthanasia, people with debts would demand euthanasia, depressed or mentally ill people would demand euthanasia, etc..

you rely on the "experts" and the government to file through the people who are mentally-able and the people who arent???


every single one of your positives would still end up in government hands. no independent psychologists are going to be evaluating every single case.


you want the benefit but refuse to recognize the cost...which is chaos.



(I assume you are talking about only currently-existing governments, so as not to invoke Godwin's law here...)[/quote]

 

[MovingTarget]

Solicitation by the government or any group to advocate voluntary euthanasia is pretty bad, and you are correct that it is a slippery slope. This is exactly why it should be debated as such. There are plenty of examples of what you spoke of as far as the problems with gvt-sponsored euthanasia, but many people here in the US are starting to see that the current laws regarding the taking of one's own life are completely rediculous. Suicide is currently illegal, as are providing the means/advice to facilitate it. On the other hand, we currently extend life beyond its natural end so as to prolong the suffering of the terminally ill. In many cases, it is hard to argue that this isn't cruelty. This is why our medical system has produced people like Dr. Kevorkian among others that you don't hear about. A balance must be struck here. Despite the slippery slope, a better system must eventually be constructed. Hence, the need for a real debate on the subject exists.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Why does everyone have a problem with Asian kids?

 

[Jeff7]

Initial thought is that it should always be the individual's decision, and never be explicitly recommended by a physician or caregiver.

You should have a right to decide where and when you'd like to die, so long as you are certain that it is the best option.
There comes a point when prolonging suffering can only be viewed as cruelty or torture.