Europeans to get very large, bigger, faster and stronger hadron...

[IronWing]

money sucking pigs? The new Ford Carrier cost $12 billion. For one fucking ship. Who the hell are we fighting with an aircraft carrier in 2013?

It isn't an either/or game. Both were money sucking pigs.

 

[McLovin]

Right. Liverpool loses a football game; fans tear hole in the fabric of time-space.

lmao! So true.

 

[Ruptga]

American bases and personnel in Europe are all there for your convenience these days, there is no enemy at the gates as far as Europe is concerned.

No, but isn't rabble rousing against East Europeans and Africans fairly common? The justification is easy for those that want it. Plus, why shouldn't you let us pay so much toward your defense when we are so eager, it's no skin off your nose, not until our stupidity and backwardness drive us into bankruptcy anyway.

 

[jagec]

They missed one huge reason: basic scientific research has driven us to most of the greatest inventions. Entire industries are developed due to basic scientific research. It would be as if we could travel back in time, and say, "we're not helping anyone with funding for this research on electrons. What the hell good are these electron things. They're smaller than this so-called atom."

"To the electron -- may it never be of any use to anybody!"

-popular toast in the laboratory that discovered the electron

 

[Gibsons]

We really blew it with the SSC. Shoulda built it, but politics.

 

[Jeff7]

"However, we have to think now what kind of machine we want to build in future in order to carry on the work of the LHC. We may get strong hints about the nature of dark matter from the LHC but it may be that we will require an even more powerful device to study them properly."

And this presents scientists with a problem – for they need results from the LHC to indicate what kind of machine should be its replacement. "However, we don't know yet if we will need a machine that collides bunches of protons or devices that collide electrons with positrons or something similar," said Heuer.

First thing that came to mind:

"I speak of none but the computer that is to come after me," intoned Deep Thought, his voice regaining its accustomed declamatory tones. "A computer whose merest operational parameters I am not worthy to calculate, and yet I will design it for you. A computer that can calculate the Question to the
Ultimate Answer, a computer of such infinite and subtle complexity that organic life itself shall form part of its operational matrix. And you yourselves shall take on new forms and go down into the computer to navigate
its ten-million-year program! Yes! I shall design this computer for you. And I shall name it also unto you. And it shall be called...the Earth."

"To the electron -- may it never be of any use to anybody!"

-popular toast in the laboratory that discovered the electron

I'm gonna put all my money into a machine that creates electron holes. Then all I've got to do is sit back and wait. You'll see. The electrons will come. :sneaky:

 

[Nebor]

the EU member states have a larger standing military, larger reserve and over twice the military budget. We have more recent combat experience, our own nukes and we are the world's largest economy. Russia wont get stupid any time soon.

I can only imagine the goat-rope involved in a coordinated EU war effort. "You guys bring the tanks, we'll bring the fighters, Italy will bring the bombers." IIRC most of Europe ran out of bombs when they were trying to bomb Libya. The only ones that kept bombing were ones that had US JDAM compatible weapon systems after we started shipping them bombs.

 

[IEC]

Well instead of Healthcare.gov which is a massive bust, we could have made a down payment on a SSC... or helped fund NASA a bit more...

I don't think we spend enough on science and research.

 

[iamwiz82]

Well instead of Healthcare.gov which is a massive bust, we could have made a down payment on a SSC... or helped fund NASA a bit more...

I don't think we spend enough on science and research.

This is what happens when you let a government manage a project.

 

[Genx87]

American bases and personnel in Europe are all there for your convenience these days, there is no enemy at the gates as far as Europe is concerned.

Hey you are preaching to the choir on this. I have been advocating a complete with drawl of forces from Europe for years. Let Europe deal with Russia on their own terms.

 

[AViking]

I used to follow some of the big projects in the US. A bunch of the X projects and even the SSC when I was in High School. I finally stopped because the same thing always happened. Cancelled.

We have this great habit of cancelling any kind of scientific project if it costs more than a few dollars but being a-ok with spending ridiculous amounts on defense.

We have this habit of saying something is going to cost $4.4 billion, then coming back and saying "Sorry we need an additional $4 billion due to cost overruns and poor management". Congress gets pissed, cancels the project, and the $2 billion spent so far is flushed down the toilet. So basically officials in charge of these projects get to blow hundreds of millions of dollars or even billions but nothing ever gets done. It's pretty corrupt if you ask me.

It's amazing to see how far behind we've fallen. We barely fund NASA, have made virtually no new progress on alternative energy, alternative propulsion, or alternative transportation. You would think that we want to continue using this ancient technology that burns fossil fuels.

Look at us today. We would rather spend $700 billion dollars on defense and under fund NASA, the NIH, and any other scientific program. We fight tooth and nail against stem cell research and are falling behind in fields that we used to or should dominate. Stupid.

Leaving it to the Europeans is really idiotic too. The European Union has some really stupid research centers where they do research but have zero applications for them. They just do research to blow money. In the US when we do research we generally have a huge industrial industry surrounding these research facilities. People come there to apply the science. That's what really makes it great in the US. We could generate more jobs with the science than the Europeans can.

 

[AViking]

Hey you are preaching to the choir on this. I have been advocating a complete with drawl of forces from Europe for years. Let Europe deal with Russia on their own terms.

Europeans don't care about American military bases. I say remove them. Russia can barely take care of itself so on what basis does anyone have to fear their renewed territorial expansion?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

It was a great move. The SCSC was a money-sucking pig. The project proponents, testifying before Congress, couldn't come up with one practical reason to build it. Hobbits are more than welcome to pay for one though.

It was a stupid move, least of which because basic science research should never have to justify itself with a short-sighted cost-benefit analysis. It's interesting how Americans complain about their jobs moving overseas, but you cancel the things (like the SSC) that would, on a massive scale, halt and reverse this trend. Compared to this, Apple's recent "efforts" are paltry in comparison, not to mention completely gratuitous and self-serving.

 

[Broheim]

I can only imagine the goat-rope involved in a coordinated EU war effort. "You guys bring the tanks, we'll bring the fighters, Italy will bring the bombers." IIRC most of Europe ran out of bombs when they were trying to bomb Libya. The only ones that kept bombing were ones that had US JDAM compatible weapon systems after we started shipping them bombs.

there is an established command structure and we've already had various types of deployments. We have a rapid response force on alert (it hasn't been called into action yet) and several joint corps.

we did experience a slight shortage (we didn't run out, we just had to shuffle some around) of smart bombs during Libya but we have domestic production that could be ramped up should the need arise.

The EU would also have home field advantage plus almost 50 years of planning for a Russian invasion, we wouldn't need much time to go back into "the commies are coming" mode.

it's not a single cohesive military, but more than enough to repel the Russians even if their military wasn't in shambles (according to their own command).

 

[videogames101]

Lots of research goes on in the US, just don't count on the federal government to fund it. Remember, they represent the majority. And the majority are idiots.

 

[Agent11]

there is an established command structure and we've already had various types of deployments. We have a rapid response force on alert (it hasn't been called into action yet) and several joint corps.

we did experience a slight shortage (we didn't run out, we just had to shuffle some around) of smart bombs during Libya but we have domestic production that could be ramped up should the need arise.

The EU would also have home field advantage plus almost 50 years of planning for a Russian invasion, we wouldn't need much time to go back into "the commies are coming" mode.

it's not a single cohesive military, but more than enough to repel the Russians even if their military wasn't in shambles (according to their own command).

The French thought they were well prepared before WWII as well. . . After all, Germany was on a leash after WWI, and they had the Maginot line.

Assuming attack by superior ground forces, because Europe does not have anywhere near enough tanks, Europe lacks the air and naval superiority to launch a counter offensive, let alone defend their own airspace or waters. Also Europe does not have a good track record of coming to allies aid quickly enough to alter the outcome in the midst of an attack.

I doubt Russia alone would be the aggressor, however if Russia and China were to decide to return to their old ways of communist hegemony and invade Europe the mainland would fold very quickly. I'm sure they would put up a good fight, but the math would be against them. This may seem far fetched now, however things are not so rosey in Russia that I would discount a possible communist resurgence at some point as people look for an alternative to the political system they have currently.

The time to retool and build your army is not after the battle has begun, you go to war with the army you have.

Being as many of the players in such a scenario have nukes, the question would be whether Europe would launch in the face of such an invasion, or more importantly whether their enemy would think that they would. Europe has been on a moral high horse for quite a while now, I would honestly doubt the credibility of any European nation's threats of MAD.

 

[IronWing]

It was a stupid move, least of which because basic science research should never have to justify itself with a short-sighted cost-benefit analysis. It's interesting how Americans complain about their jobs moving overseas, but you cancel the things (like the SSC) that would, on a massive scale, halt and reverse this trend. Compared to this, Apple's recent "efforts" are paltry in comparison, not to mention completely gratuitous and self-serving.

You're still free to build one. Tax yourselves to pay for it.

Edit: I should back off a bit though. I searched on New Zealand's contributions to the LHC and discovered that New Zealand in fact stepped up to the plate with just shy of NZ$200k.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Well, this has degraded somewhat. Let me throw a log on the fire:

Having lived in both the US and Germany, traveled extensively throughout Europe, and travel back and forth to work, I can only say that the quality of life in northern European countries is far better than in the US. Average intelligence is far greater as well. The US is full of what is essentially sloppy trailer trash that shouldn't be permitted to vote. But they do and continually elect idiots that in turn fvck them over with their own taxpayer money. One way out of many in which they are fvcked is the continued planned deterioration of our education system designed to maintain the exact same fvcked-up status quo.

 

[Nebor]

there is an established command structure and we've already had various types of deployments. We have a rapid response force on alert (it hasn't been called into action yet) and several joint corps.

we did experience a slight shortage (we didn't run out, we just had to shuffle some around) of smart bombs during Libya but we have domestic production that could be ramped up should the need arise.

The EU would also have home field advantage plus almost 50 years of planning for a Russian invasion, we wouldn't need much time to go back into "the commies are coming" mode.

it's not a single cohesive military, but more than enough to repel the Russians even if their military wasn't in shambles (according to their own command).

IIRC you're Dutch, and the Royal Netherlands Air Force flies F16s (and has F35s on order.) So you were one of the countries that was resupplied with US munitions during the Libya campaign, while France's Rafael and the Eurofighter Typhoons were mostly out of the fight. IIRC the Netherlands is also one of the primary beneficiaries of the NATO Nuclear Weapon sharing program (they're entrusted with US nuclear weapons in case of a nuclear conflict.)

 

[GTaudiophile]

Well we weren't going to let you put in in the US. What with the riots and complete collapse of society you are going to experience when your economy collapses.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winnar!

This will soon the be the US on a national scale. Just add more guns, shooting, and death.

This happens in the weeks following the US really losing its status of having the world reserve currency. Everyone's income and savings goes to shit and the QE printing presses no longer prop-up our economy.

 

[AViking]

Nobody gives a shit about US military power. Seriously. Nobody but the US.

This is a thread about science.

 

[Broheim]

IIRC you're Dutch, and the Royal Netherlands Air Force flies F16s (and has F35s on order.) So you were one of the countries that was resupplied with US munitions during the Libya campaign, while France's Rafael and the Eurofighter Typhoons were mostly out of the fight. IIRC the Netherlands is also one of the primary beneficiaries of the NATO Nuclear Weapon sharing program (they're entrusted with US nuclear weapons in case of a nuclear conflict.)

I'm danish, we ran low on JDAMs but ended up buying a bunch from the Israelis, the problem was we (and Norway) ended up flying more sorties and dropping more bombs; per sortie, per plane, and per capita than any other Nation. Europe wasn't really geared for that kind of sustained bombing (coupled with resources being tied up in other parts of the world).

but that's kinda besides the point, air resources would mostly be dedicated to maintaining air superiority and would only be bombing high priority targets, should Russia invade (which they're not going to do).

 

[exdeath]

Lots of research goes on in the US, just don't count on the federal government to fund it. Remember, they represent the majority. And the majority are idiots.

51% isn't a majority.

 

[Ichinisan]

51% isn't a majority.

??

 

[Gibsons]

Lots of research goes on in the US, just don't count on the federal government to fund it. Remember, they represent the majority. And the majority are idiots.

NSF's budget is about 6 billion
http://www.nsf.gov/about/congress/113/highlights/cu13_0409.jsp