Europe, the failure in the making

Specop 007

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Jan 31, 2005
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Interesting, and actually sounds like the truth for the most part.

Article


U.S. can sit back and watch Europe implode

February 27, 2005

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST




A week ago, the conventional wisdom was that George W. Bush had seen the error of his unilateral cowboy ways and was setting off to Europe to mend fences with America's ''allies.''



I think not. Lester Pearson, the late Canadian prime minister, used to say that diplomacy is the art of letting the other fellow have your way. All week long President Bush offered a hilariously parodic reductio of Pearson's bon mot, wandering from one European Union gabfest to another insisting how much he loves his good buddy Jacques and his good buddy Gerhard and how Europe and America share -- what's the standard formulation? -- ''common values.'' Care to pin down an actual specific value or two that we share? Well, you know, ''freedom,'' that sort of thing, abstract nouns mostly. Love to list a few more common values, but gotta run.

And at the end what's changed?

Will the United States sign on to Kyoto?

No.

Will the United States join the International Criminal Court?

No.

Will the United States agree to accept whatever deal the Anglo-Franco-German negotiators cook up with Iran?

No.

Even more remarkably, aside from sticking to his guns in the wider world, the president also found time to cast his eye upon Europe's internal affairs. As he told his audience in Brussels, in the first speech of his tour, ''We must reject anti-Semitism in all forms and we must condemn violence such as that seen in the Netherlands.''

The Euro-bigwigs shuffled their feet and stared coldly into their mistresses' decolletage. They knew Bush wasn't talking about anti-Semitism in Nebraska, but about France, where for three years there's been a sustained campaign of synagogue burning and cemetery desecration, and Germany, where the Berlin police advise Jewish residents not to go out in public wearing any identifying marks of their faith.

The ''violence in the Netherlands'' is a reference to Theo van Gogh, murdered by a Dutch Islamist for making a film critical of the Muslim treatment of women. Van Gogh's professional colleagues reacted to this assault on freedom of speech by canceling his movie from the Rotterdam Film Festival and scheduling some Islamist propaganda instead.

The president, in other words, understands that for Europe, unlike America, the war on terror is an internal affair, a matter of defusing large unassimilated radicalized Muslim immigrant populations before they provoke the inevitable resurgence of opportunist political movements feeding off old hatreds. Difficult trick to pull off, especially on a continent where the ruling elite feels it's in the people's best interest not to pay any attention to them.

The new EU ''constitution,'' for example, would be unrecognizable as such to any American. I had the opportunity to talk with former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing on a couple of occasions during his long labors as the self-declared and strictly single Founding Father. He called himself ''Europe's Jefferson,'' and I didn't like to quibble that, constitution-wise, Jefferson was Europe's Jefferson -- that's to say, at the time the U.S. Constitution was drawn up, Thomas Jefferson was living in France. Thus, for Giscard to be Europe's Jefferson, he'd have to be in Des Moines, where he'd be doing far less damage.

But, quibbles aside, President Giscard professed to be looking in the right direction. When I met him, he had an amiable riff on how he'd been in Washington and bought one of those compact copies of the U.S. Constitution on sale for a buck or two. Many Americans wander round with the constitution in their pocket so they can whip it out and chastise over-reaching congressmen and senators at a moment's notice. Try going round with the European Constitution in your pocket and you'll be walking with a limp after two hours: It's 511 pages, which is 500 longer than the U.S. version. It's full of stuff about European space policy, Slovakian nuclear plants, water resources, free expression for children, the right to housing assistance, preventive action on the environment, etc.

Most of the so-called constitution isn't in the least bit constitutional. That's to say, it's not content, as the U.S. Constitution is, to define the distribution and limitation of powers. Instead, it reads like a U.S. defense spending bill that's got porked up with a ton of miscellaneous expenditures for the ''mohair subsidy'' and other notorious Congressional boondoggles. President Ronald Reagan liked to say, ''We are a nation that has a government -- not the other way around.'' If you want to know what it looks like the other way round, read Monsieur Giscard's constitution.

But the fact is it's going to be ratified, and Washington is hardly in a position to prevent it. Plus there's something to be said for the theory that, as the EU constitution is a disaster waiting to happen, you might as well cut down the waiting and let it happen. CIA analysts predict the collapse of the EU within 15 years. I'd say, as predictions of doom go, that's a little on the cautious side.

But either way the notion that it's a superpower in the making is preposterous. Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up.

For what it's worth, I incline to the latter position. Europe's problems -- its unaffordable social programs, its deathbed demographics, its dependence on immigration numbers that no stable nation (not even America in the Ellis Island era) has ever successfully absorbed -- are all of Europe's making. By some projections, the EU's population will be 40 percent Muslim by 2025. Already, more people each week attend Friday prayers at British mosques than Sunday service at Christian churches -- and in a country where Anglican bishops have permanent seats in the national legislature.

Some of us think an Islamic Europe will be easier for America to deal with than the present Europe of cynical, wily, duplicitous pseudo-allies. But getting there is certain to be messy, and violent.

Until the shape of the new Europe begins to emerge, there's no point picking fights with the terminally ill. The old Europe is dying, and Mr. Bush did the diplomatic equivalent of the Oscar night lifetime-achievement tribute at which the current stars salute a once glamorous old-timer whose fading aura is no threat to them. The 21st century is being built elsewhere.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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That was rather interesting... Gave me a new perspective on the reluctance of EU leaders to talk directly about the "Muslim problem". I'd be interested to see figures about these so-called problems Europe is experiencing: Unaffordable social programs? Deathbed demographics? The immigration issue is plain enough to see though.
 

Specop 007

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Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Europe as a landmass yes, but look at its varied history in terms of peoples and nations.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Europe as a landmass yes, but look at its varied history in terms of peoples and nations.
Yes, but it's still got England, france, italy--the old faithfuls that were there years ago and will remain there. I find this interesting:
Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up.
In regards to point a) it is the exact impression I got reading an article on time.com recently in regards to how europe sees the US. Increasingly it seemed that Europe just cares less about what the US says and will do what it likes regardless. I think Europe's over reliance on socialism is a big weakness, but Europe is going to be fine.
 

Specop 007

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Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Europe as a landmass yes, but look at its varied history in terms of peoples and nations.
Yes, but it's still got England, france, italy--the old faithfuls that were there years ago and will remain there. I find this interesting:
Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up.
In regards to point a) it is the exact impression I got reading an article on time.com recently in regards to how europe sees the US. Increasingly it seemed that Europe just cares less about what the US says and will do what it likes regardless. I think Europe's over reliance on socialism is a big weakness, but Europe is going to be fine.

I dont know Skoorb. They really do have an immigration problem thats moving from a nuisance to a threat, and they really cant come fully together on the whole EU issue.
Either way, time will tell. Gives me a reason to buy more popcorn. :D
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Sure it will.

The question for those coming years is whether they'll be bowing to their monarchs or to Mecca.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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I think Europe will be fine... relatively speaking. It's been in decline since WWII and will slowly continue to lose influence and prestige. As far as the EU revitalizing this process, it just aint gonna happen, all it really does is spread the misery. But Europe's in no way going to implode or anything like that.

Much like the large Arab/Muslim/Terrorist backlash against American hegemony, the Europeans are going through a similar process, albeit in a lot more sophisticated and civilized manner. Eventually they'll accept their role in this reality. There really isn't much choice.

The Europeans have forgotten something America has not: Our doctrine of Peace Through Strength has kept this world out of complete armagedon for over 50 years. Having the US protect them for so long, they actually think endless negotiations, wishful appeasement, and mindless disarmament works better. But their attitude of security is that of the goldfish in a fishbowl, in that yes it is very safe... but it's also in a mind-numbing state of captivity, something the American mentality would never stand for. Fasting might work against an Enlightened British Empire, and boycotts and marching might work against an Enlightened America, but trying that stuff in front of a monkey with a machine gun and eventually you're bound to get shot... and the nonviolent gesture will not have made an iota of difference.

 

imported_Condor

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Sep 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Yeah, and for hundreds of years the EU countries were world leaders. Not there today!

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Meh, the area is going through some growing pains. Unification has started, and the only country currently attacking others to any significant degree is the US. If we decide to attack them then they have no chance, and no other country poses a realistic threat to them that they could not handle. I expect Russia to align themselves with the EU over time and they will serve as a counterpoise for China. At that point, there will be three superpowers, the EU/Russia, the US, and China. That is when things will get interesting.
 

CubicZirconia

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Nov 24, 2001
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Try going round with the European Constitution in your pocket and you'll be walking with a limp after two hours: It's 511 pages, which is 500 longer than the U.S. version.

Does anyone really believe that if the US Constitution was written today it wouldn't be 500+ pages as well?

But either way the notion that it's a superpower in the making is preposterous. Most administration officials subscribe to one of two views: a) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater; or b) Europe is a smugly irritating but irrelevant backwater where the whole powder keg's about to go up.

Europe as an irrelevant backwater...just amazing.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

The United States of America is the oldest democracy (or is it republic?) in the world.
 

MrPabulum

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

Sure it will.

The question for those coming years is whether they'll be bowing to their monarchs or to Mecca.


Indeed. And miserable birth rates will only accelerate the decline.
 

Specop 007

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Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Sensationalism :) Europe has been around long before the US and it will be quite fine in the coming years.

The United States of America is the oldest democracy (or is it republic?) in the world.

America is a republic. Whether it remains that way in coming years remains to be seen however.
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
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Why don't you just invade Europe already. Come on!!! Will be a calkwalk like Iraq.

You guys crack me up. You think to know so much about Europe that you are sure it will sink soon, but most of you never where for a longer term in Europe.

PS: I love it everytime when W comes beggin for help in Iraq and gets that nice smirk from European leaders. Competition sucks, doesn't it.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Why don't you just invade Europe already. Come on!!! Will be a calkwalk like Iraq.

You guys crack me up. You think to know so much about Europe that you are sure it will sink soon, but most of you never where for a longer term in Europe.

PS: I love it everytime when W comes beggin for help in Iraq and gets that nice smirk from European leaders. Competition sucks, doesn't it.


:cookie: great one... that just hits the bone :roll:
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Why don't you just invade Europe already. Come on!!! Will be a calkwalk like Iraq.

You guys crack me up. You think to know so much about Europe that you are sure it will sink soon, but most of you never where for a longer term in Europe.

PS: I love it everytime when W comes beggin for help in Iraq and gets that nice smirk from European leaders. Competition sucks, doesn't it.

It's already in the process of sinking, look at it's stagnent economy and it's outdated military (with the exception of Britain).
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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The impending Doom of Europe has been greatly exaggerated. Declining European power is nothing new and I suggest it is exactly the opposite of what currently is happening.

The Decline of European power began in the 1800's, when Coloialism was begining to wane. As Europe accelerated their abandoning of Colonialism and as a result of 2 costly World Wars their lowest point came during the 1940s-1950s as their efforts were focussed on rebuilding. Since that time they have recovered their Economy and most importantly they have learned how to gain Wealth without Colonialism. During the Cold War Europe remained on the sidelines politically speaking, always remaining inline(more or less) with US Policy, since the US stood between a Free Europe and the Soviet Union. It was essential that a unified voice consisting of Europe and the US exist against the USSR and Warsaw Pact.

Europe, freed from the bonds of the Cold War, has become more Bold and is once again taking upon itself a sense of Self Determination and Independence that it has suppressed for many decades. The big difference though is that it isn't 12(or so) relatively small European Nations experiencing a Re-birth, but 1 unified Europe with a Population and GDP that rivals the US. Never has this been true in Modern times. Europe has certainly taken the step of Rhetoric and a pursuit of Policy that diverges from the US, all indications are that it's only a matter of time before they have the Military to back that up. The US would be wise not to burn too many bridges.

Europe is growing stronger, not weaker.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
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Originally posted by: sandorski
The impending Doom of Europe has been greatly exaggerated. Declining European power is nothing new and I suggest it is exactly the opposite of what currently is happening.

The Decline of European power began in the 1800's, when Coloialism was begining to wane. As Europe accelerated their abandoning of Colonialism and as a result of 2 costly World Wars their lowest point came during the 1940s-1950s as their efforts were focussed on rebuilding. Since that time they have recovered their Economy and most importantly they have learned how to gain Wealth without Colonialism. During the Cold War Europe remained on the sidelines politically speaking, always remaining inline(more or less) with US Policy, since the US stood between a Free Europe and the Soviet Union. It was essential that a unified voice consisting of Europe and the US exist against the USSR and Warsaw Pact.

Europe, freed from the bonds of the Cold War, has become more Bold and is once again taking upon itself a sense of Self Determination and Independence that it has suppressed for many decades. The big difference though is that it isn't 12(or so) relatively small European Nations experiencing a Re-birth, but 1 unified Europe with a Population and GDP that rivals the US. Never has this been true in Modern times. Europe has certainly taken the step of Rhetoric and a pursuit of Policy that diverges from the US, all indications are that it's only a matter of time before they have the Military to back that up. The US would be wise not to burn too many bridges.

Europe is growing stronger, not weaker.

Europe will never be totally unified. Those countries can never agree with each other, they are too arrogant and proud to do that.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Why don't you just invade Europe already. Come on!!! Will be a calkwalk like Iraq.

You guys crack me up. You think to know so much about Europe that you are sure it will sink soon, but most of you never where for a longer term in Europe.

PS: I love it everytime when W comes beggin for help in Iraq and gets that nice smirk from European leaders. Competition sucks, doesn't it.
You seem to have it a bit backwars. It's the European leaders who were expecting Iraq to crash in a fiery disaster so they could rush in and provide salvation, scooping up the financial goodies in the process. Except that hasn't happened so now they are begging the US for a piece of the action there, whining about their lack of access to contracts and jockeying themselves to get an edge. So Bush says, "Sure, you can have a piece of the action. Commit some kind of help is all you need to do. So they refuse and the US throws them a scrawny bone anyway just to kep them tight on their leash and begging for more.

Sad little doggies, they are.

Oh, and I lived in Germany for three years so I'm slightly familiar with Europe. What about you?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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While I agree that Europe (just like everywhere else) has bad things and things it should watch out for, I've never understood the glee some of you guys get when talking about how you believe they will fall apart at any second. It's not going to happen, the unified currency was a smart move, and as they become more and more unified (don't look now, it's happening), they will be a force on the world stage, if not the absolute leaders they were 200 years ago.

Feel free to disagree, but I get the sense this is more than academic interest. Many of you guys WANT Europe to fail, you WANT Europe to be reduced to a bunch of irrelevant has-beens. You are salivating at the thought. My question is why do you care so much...is it because they are liberal? I don't understand the hate I suppose.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Feel free to disagree, but I get the sense this is more than academic interest. Many of you guys WANT Europe to fail, you WANT Europe to be reduced to a bunch of irrelevant has-beens. You are salivating at the thought. My question is why do you care so much...is it because they are liberal? I don't understand the hate I suppose.

I DO want them to fail! They try to force their mumbo jumbo down OUR throats, and thats what bothers me. We, the United States, are a free, indepedent Republic. The European Nations through the Eu and UN want to force is to join into their little Socialist Paradise. Which is bullshit. They can do whatever they want, I dont care. But dont try to force it onto us!
But, since they DO want to force it onto us the only option for us is for failure of a United Europe.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Feel free to disagree, but I get the sense this is more than academic interest. Many of you guys WANT Europe to fail, you WANT Europe to be reduced to a bunch of irrelevant has-beens. You are salivating at the thought. My question is why do you care so much...is it because they are liberal? I don't understand the hate I suppose.

I DO want them to fail! They try to force their mumbo jumbo down OUR throats, and thats what bothers me. We, the United States, are a free, indepedent Republic. The European Nations through the Eu and UN want to force is to join into their little Socialist Paradise. Which is bullshit. They can do whatever they want, I dont care. But dont try to force it onto us!
But, since they DO want to force it onto us the only option for us is for failure of a United Europe.

There's no force going the other way?
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Feel free to disagree, but I get the sense this is more than academic interest. Many of you guys WANT Europe to fail, you WANT Europe to be reduced to a bunch of irrelevant has-beens. You are salivating at the thought. My question is why do you care so much...is it because they are liberal? I don't understand the hate I suppose.

I DO want them to fail! They try to force their mumbo jumbo down OUR throats, and thats what bothers me. We, the United States, are a free, indepedent Republic. The European Nations through the Eu and UN want to force is to join into their little Socialist Paradise. Which is bullshit. They can do whatever they want, I dont care. But dont try to force it onto us!
But, since they DO want to force it onto us the only option for us is for failure of a United Europe.

There's no force going the other way?

No, theres not.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,703
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Feel free to disagree, but I get the sense this is more than academic interest. Many of you guys WANT Europe to fail, you WANT Europe to be reduced to a bunch of irrelevant has-beens. You are salivating at the thought. My question is why do you care so much...is it because they are liberal? I don't understand the hate I suppose.

I DO want them to fail! They try to force their mumbo jumbo down OUR throats, and thats what bothers me. We, the United States, are a free, indepedent Republic. The European Nations through the Eu and UN want to force is to join into their little Socialist Paradise. Which is bullshit. They can do whatever they want, I dont care. But dont try to force it onto us!
But, since they DO want to force it onto us the only option for us is for failure of a United Europe.

There's no force going the other way?

No, theres not.

Oh, I see.