EU moves closer to total integration

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You are kidding, right? The core of the issue is sovereign debt.
LOL You're never going to convince committed leftists that a nation can't simply borrow more and more money forever, with only good results as long as you never fail to borrow more. It's like trying to convince a diehard Catholic that the Pope drags on weekends, simply can't be done because of the potential damage to their entire world view.

Eventually nations in the EU will surrender sovereignty for economic reasons. I'm surprised it's taken this long.
I agree. And I fear the same thing happening here, leftists getting control of the country to the point that elections are useless because all significant policy is set at a level beyond that of elected officials.

I would think that referendums should be conducted in the individual countries. Each is a democracy so I doubt this sort of thing can be done without approval of each electorate. Then again, maybe not...
Haven't they pretty much ceded control of their nations to appointed bureaucrats anyway? Seems to me that most EU nations already have relatively little sovereignty. Nonetheless, I applaud this; I don't think you can have a common currency without common fiscal policy and be successful over the long term. It's fine for the UK to stay out - their main remaining business is finance and they don't want to lose that - and for a few nations like Sweden who are traditionally strong and independent. But most of these nations need to have common fiscal policy if they are to benefit from a common currency.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,087
11,269
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in the end the UK will not need their referendum about the EU, the other EU countries will kick them out one day

They can't afford to. We are the second biggest net contributer to the EU. Much as some of them may dislike us they need our money.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
EU moves closer to total integration

This strikes me as the most important news story of the day:

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20111209&id=14603606

Summary: The EU nations have now all agreed to submit their budgets to a central authority for approval, giving up much of whatever sovreighnty they currently hold. Britain is the sole dissenter and is staying completely out of it.

In terms of short term economic outcomes, I tend to think this is a positive development. Long term? Dunno. Interested in people's reactions.

We must get to a One World Government on the path to Revolution.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
They can't afford to. We are the second biggest net contributer to the EU. Much as some of them may dislike us they need our money.

then just leave, really, I love the UK but continental Europe doesn't give a rat ass about UK membership, it's more a nuisance to other countries then anything else. I hope you guys have your referendum and vote in favor of leaving the EU
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,290
352
126
We must get to a One World Government on the path to Revolution.

You're right, the EU situation is a test by the major power players of the world to see how each country and its citizens react to giving up their sovereignty to a higher political power.

My guess is that it doesn't actually go that well, but if it does go well, I will be the first to welcome my new leader brought to me courtesy of government sachs.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
Did a google search for bank nationalization deflation and found some interesting articles that may have some relevance to this thread:


http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2008/07/deflation-and-bank-bailouts-in-japan.html (Japan's insolvent but liquid banks and ZIRP)

(as in article above, wonder if Germans (frugal savers) are at least feigning to "choose" deflation as least worst outcome for their people, just as Japan apparently did in 1990s, while French et. al. are desperate to print without limit and try and inflate their way out of of their problems (?)



"Either we’ll see a massive new plan to stop the contagion in Europe or the contagion will spread with failing banks nationalized as the Euro is dismantled. If this is allowed to happen it will lead to a deflationary recession or possible depression in the Euro-Zone and beyond. Tragically this is all preventable, yet the leaders of Europe sit frozen in their own inaction to address their fundamental problems. Stop-gap measures such as the coordinated international injection of liquidity just employed is important defensively, but only buys time.

Most likely, real action will come only at the point of panic. There is nothing like panic to focus the mind. If the market loses confidence in the government’s ability to pay their bills or questions the solvency of banks, the ball game is over. Confidence is the only thing tying the Euro-Zone together. The consequences of failure would be extreme, which is why we should take a little time to review and prepare for the various scenarios and possible outcomes if this happens.

The first and most likely scenario if panic should set in is that free-falling markets and spiking interest rates would quickly force the governments of the world to step up and throw everything they have at the markets. At that point, all of the plans they have been talking about but unable to agree upon would come together. So, no doubt an international response would be volleyed to try and stop the panic. Their attempt might work—and might not. We just saw evidence that all nations including China are willing to participate in such an attempt. This is at least a first step. China adds to the "Bazooka effect".

What do they have in their arsenal? They can inflate. The ECB could inject massive amounts of cash into the banking system, even though they are not suppose to. The IMF could create reserves in the form of SDR's to serve as an asset backed by a basket of currencies, and then loan these to governments, an even greater inflation weapon. They also have gold in their coffers which can be used as collateral. And they have the ability to borrow from those that have cash such as China or Brazil, whom they are courting.

Finally, they could restructure their debt through amortization or forgiveness at below market interest rates for longer periods of time. If all these efforts failed to stabilize the system they have brute force at their disposal and can impose capital controls, shut down markets, close and nationalize banks, and impose higher taxes.

Scenario number two is that the Euro breaks apart as Greece returns to the Drachma and other hopelessly indebted nations do the same. OR...Germany does the splitting by returning to the Deutsche Mark and refusing to continue support to the weaker countries. One route leads to devaluation and the other to revaluation of currencies, but both would end in major defaults and reversals of trade flows. The German surplus would dwindle and the Greek trade deficit would turn to surplus, but at the end of the day it would primarily be the creditors who suffered the losses together with importers or exporters. Historically, when push comes to shove, debtors win over creditors. This is in my opinion why we have seen bank stocks falling throughout the world -- they are volnerable.

A third scenario is that the status quo just continues. The Euro-Zone buys more time through the application of various half measures and Band-Aids until they eventually get their financial house in order. Fiscal austerity would need to be the order of the day throughout Europe. That could take about five years to accomplish if they are sincere about cutting spending. Assuming they eventually subsidized all financial losses, the price tag, as I see it, would be upwards of three trillion dollars, include a prolonged recession, and a falling Euro.

In addition to these three scenarios there are all the “Armageddon” prophecies that include the breakdown of the monetary system, hyperinflation, or a deflationary depression with all of the social unrest that comes with the breakdown of societies..."

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Nathan/dec092011A.html


http://www.paulnathan.biz/new-this-month/110-is-nationalization-of-banks-next.html (nationalization of the banks?)
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,087
11,269
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then just leave, really, I love the UK but continental Europe doesn't give a rat ass about UK membership, it's more a nuisance to other countries then anything else. I hope you guys have your referendum and vote in favor of leaving the EU

I'm not bothered either way really. I bet continental Europe will give more than a rats arse when they have to find an extra 10 billion euros or so per year from someone though.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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I'm not bothered either way really. I bet continental Europe will give more than a rats arse when they have to find an extra 10 billion euros or so per year from someone though.

Nah. Remember that it's always been the UK chasing Europe and not the other way around. France initially blocked the UK from membership if I recall correctly. The UK doesn't like the idea of being left out but they have never really had their heart in the project.

It seems like the UK is more concerned about the City of London than really building a strong Europe.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,087
11,269
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Nah. Remember that it's always been the UK chasing Europe and not the other way around. France initially blocked the UK from membership if I recall correctly. The UK doesn't like the idea of being left out but they have never really had their heart in the project.

It seems like the UK is more concerned about the City of London than really building a strong Europe.

The UK has always had different opinions on how Europe should be, and has always been open about it.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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Britain has always stood there alone in splendid isolation. They can recoup their EU trading loses by trading more with the US.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
33,087
11,269
136
Britain has always stood there alone in splendid isolation. They can recoup their EU trading loses by trading more with the US.

I'm think the risk of loss of trade would come more from french protectionism rather than the UK moving away from mainstream Europe.
 

HAL9000

Lifer
Oct 17, 2010
22,021
3
76
This strikes me as the most important news story of the day:

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20111209&id=14603606

Summary: The EU nations have now all agreed (Except the UK) to submit their budgets to a central authority for approval, giving up much of whatever sovreighnty they currently hold. Britain is the sole dissenter and is staying completely out of it.

In terms of short term economic outcomes, I tend to think this is a positive development. Long term? Dunno. Interested in people's reactions.

Fixed.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
The interest rates are going up due to a self fulfilling bond panic. Countries pass small bailout packages, it does nothing. Countries impose austerity, it does nothing. Why? Because they aren't addressing the problem. When the ECB steps in and offers to act as a lender of last resort, you will see these bond problems disappear overnight. Countries with higher debt to GDP ratios and equivalent growth pay much, much lower rates.

Japan has had terribly low growth rates for the last 15 years along with vastly higher debt to GDP ratios. Why is there no run on their bonds?

LOL, please. You sound just like another Krugmanite who'd rather foolishly hang on to fantasy theories than take his head out of the sand. The interest rates are going up for the same reason no one in their right mind would lend money to a broke homeless bum, or to a single baby's momma with $30000 in debt making minimum wage. I suppose you'd rather everyone just pretend it's a crisis of confidence instead of admitting that it's the end result of decades of fraud and reckless spending.