EU Members coming up with evidence to....

[RightIsWrong]

Why won't the Bush administration and Condi, while on tour of Europe, just state definatively that there has been no black OP prisons and transfers going on? This should be a simple thing to do if you aren't actually doing it. Once again, the Bush administration believes that the law is for others to follow while they do anything and everything that they feel like doing without any repercussions from this rubber-stamp Congress. I would think that Congress would want to clear the hopefully still good name of the US. Guess politics takes precedence over morality.

Europe CIA probe: Prisoners abducted, transferred illegally

Tuesday, December 13, 2005; Posted: 9:09 a.m. EST (14:09 GMT)

PARIS, France (AP) -- A Swiss investigator probing claims of secret CIA prisons in Europe said his committee has evidence that supports allegations that prisoners were transferred between countries and temporarily held "without any judicial involvement."

"Legal proceedings in progress in certain countries seemed to indicate that individuals had been abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal standards," lawmaker Dick Marty said in a written report summarizing his investigations so far.

Marty told a news conference he believed the United States was no longer holding prisoners clandestinely in Europe and believes they were moved to North Africa in early November, when reports about secret U.S. prisons first emerged in The Washington Post. He did not provide any other details.

He presented his findings in Paris to a committee of the Council of Europe, the continent's human rights watchdog.

Marty added that "information gathered to date reinforced the credibility of the allegations concerning the transfer and temporary detention of individuals, without any judicial involvement, in European countries."

He is investigating the CIA's reported transfers of prisoners through European airports to secret detention centers, actions that would breach the continent's human rights principles.

Poland and Romania have been identified by the New York-based Human Rights watch as sites of possible CIA secret prisons, but both countries have repeatedly denied any involvement.

Marty, in his report, added it is "still too early to assert that there had been any involvement or complicity of member states in illegal actions."

He was critical of the United States for not formally denying the allegations. He said he "deplores the fact that no information or explanations" were provided by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who faced repeated questions about the CIA prison allegations on her recent visit to Europe.

Marty has requested air traffic log books to try to determine flight patterns of several dozen suspect CIA airplanes.

He has also requested satellite images of the Sczytno-Szymany airport in northeastern Poland and the Mihail Kogalniceanu Air Base in eastern Romania, after they were identified by Human Rights Watch as possible sites of clandestine CIA detention centers. European officials say such prisons would violate the continent's human rights principles.

After hearing Marty's presentation, Tony Lloyd, a member of the Council of Europe committee, said: "The really difficult thing is the idea is that there is a kind of legal black hole in the middle of Europe."

 

[Starbuck1975]

This should be a simple thing to do if you aren't actually doing it. Once again, the Bush administration believes that the law is for others to follow while they do anything and everything that they feel like doing without any repercussions from this rubber-stamp Congress.

International law is somewhat vague in terms of its applicability towards suspected terrorists, as they do not fight under the protective watch of a sovereign nation. The Geneva Convention specifically speaks to the treatment of POWs and civilians, but foreign nationals with suspected links to Al Quaida are somewhat in a vacuum.

Let's assume the scenario of a Syrian national, with Al Quaida ties, captured in Iraq...the CIA transfer this prisoner from the theater for interrogation...now, this prisoner is not a lawful combatant of Syria, nor is he a lawful combatant of Iraq.

If only the EU were as proactive and vigilant in tracking down suspected war criminals of the Balkans Civil War.

Marty added that "information gathered to date reinforced the credibility of the allegations concerning the transfer and temporary detention of individuals, without any judicial involvement, in European countries."

What judicial involvement, if any, would these European nations have...they are not European prisoners, and America has host nation arrangements with multiple European countries with regard to the use of their infrastructure for military purposes...in some cases, we have permanent American bases, considered American soil, in European nations.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

This should be a simple thing to do if you aren't actually doing it. Once again, the Bush administration believes that the law is for others to follow while they do anything and everything that they feel like doing without any repercussions from this rubber-stamp Congress.

International law is somewhat vague in terms of its applicability towards suspected terrorists, as they do not fight under the protective watch of a sovereign nation. The Geneva Convention specifically speaks to the treatment of POWs and civilians, but foreign nationals with suspected links to Al Quaida are somewhat in a vacuum.

Let's assume the scenario of a Syrian national, with Al Quaida ties, captured in Iraq...the CIA transfer this prisoner from the theater for interrogation...now, this prisoner is not a lawful combatant of Syria, nor is he a lawful combatant of Iraq.

If only the EU were as proactive and vigilant in tracking down suspected war criminals of the Balkans Civil War.

Marty added that "information gathered to date reinforced the credibility of the allegations concerning the transfer and temporary detention of individuals, without any judicial involvement, in European countries."

What judicial involvement, if any, would these European nations have...they are not European prisoners, and America has host nation arrangements with multiple European countries with regard to the use of their infrastructure for military purposes...in some cases, we have permanent American bases, considered American soil, in European nations.

This isn't as difficult as you are trying to make it seem. It would just take the Bush administration being willing to hold sessions with the EU administrations and other delagations to define the rules. Then there would be no circumvention of the rules.

What is happening now though, is this administration is setting the rules by themselves and keeping them secret from review/oversight. They claim that no rules are defined as a cop out instead of actually sitting down and coming up with a concensus as to what the rules should be.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It would just take the Bush administration being willing to hold sessions with the EU administrations and other delagations to define the rules. Then there would be no circumvention of the rules

You are right...I wish the Bush Administration would be a bit more forthcoming with the facts of our operations...typically, people find little to be skeptical about when everything is on the table.

Then again, I have an appreciation for the need of secrecy with regards to black operations...it is a delicate balance to admit that such operations are ongoing without jeopardizing the mission...the Bush Administration has taken the more defensive approach of secrecy, which is of course going to attract those interested in keeping this Administration accountable for its actions...and secrecy, as always, opens the doors for speculation of wrongdoing.

 

[Moonbeam]

Evil wears an honest face because evil thrives by hiding. An honest face is everything to evil.

 

[chcarnage]

On a sidenote, Switzerland isn't an EU member and the Council of Europe isn't linked to the EU.

Marty is quite an impressive person and doing this investigation in a part-time job with only two coworkers and no institutional power. Former State Attorney, awarded by the US Dep. of Justice in 1988 for destroying a drug traffic organisation using unconventional methods (money tracing, police informers), Member of the Swiss Parliament. I actually wanted to link an article about him but the machine translation was horrible.

The image of Poland and Romania quite a bit is at stake, at least among the other European countries... But Czechia, Georgia, Latvia and Armenia are suspected to be involved in this, too.

I'm wondering what results from the flight movements evaluation.

Americans so far can be comforted by the fact that reports from the Washington Post and Human Rights Watch initiated this investigation.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
International law is somewhat vague in terms of its applicability towards suspected terrorists, as they do not fight under the protective watch of a sovereign nation. The Geneva Convention specifically speaks to the treatment of POWs and civilians, but foreign nationals with suspected links to Al Quaida are somewhat in a vacuum.

...

Marty's investigation is not based on the Geneva Convention or the UN definition of human rights but on the European Human Rights Convention which is a very high standard. Of course this standard is also valid for a bilateral treaty with the US.

European Countries are in the dock, not the US. Consequences on the other side of the pond are side effects, although they may have some impact there, too.

 

[Czar]

Starbuck1975,
Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years.

Is that legal to you?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years. Is that legal to you?

Depends on the circumstances...there are scenarios where this would be justified.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years. Is that legal to you?

Depends on the circumstances...there are scenarios where this would be justified.

but would you trust that foreign government of being truthful of their reasons?

and what scanerios would this be justified?

 

[glenn1]

The EU ain't going to do sh!t no matter what the Swiss investigator finds. The U.S. has the bigger hammer, namely the truly juicy stuff from Paul Volcker's UN Oil For Food investigation which could be leaked. What it documents some EU countries doing would make the CIA Black Sites look like toddler daycamp in comparison.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Czar
Starbuck1975,
Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years.

Is that legal to you?

In many cases, the host country is allowing it.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: glenn1
The EU ain't going to do sh!t no matter what the Swiss investigator finds. The U.S. has the bigger hammer, namely the truly juicy stuff from Paul Volcker's UN Oil For Food investigation which could be leaked. What it documents some EU countries doing would make the CIA Black Sites look like toddler daycamp in comparison.

please do, as long as he wouldnt omit anything the US did in that regard

even though the EU and other countries would look worse, it would do everyone good to know what really happened

 

[dahunan]

Well, if they were not guilty and they were sure not to give them more than 30% permanent damage DUE TO TORTURE .. then set them free.. hey it's all good :thumbsup: War is Peace

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: Czar
Starbuck1975,
Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years.

Is that legal to you?

In many cases, the host country is allowing it.

got any links which state that host countries are allowing their own citizens being abducted?

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: glenn1
The EU ain't going to do sh!t no matter what the Swiss investigator finds. The U.S. has the bigger hammer, namely the truly juicy stuff from Paul Volcker's UN Oil For Food investigation which could be leaked. What it documents some EU countries doing would make the CIA Black Sites look like toddler daycamp in comparison.

The European countries in question (the EU doesn't have anything to do with this, folks) in all probability will end this practice if they still do this today. The Council of Europe doesn't have power per se, but high credibility and the results from its investigations are likely to influence the relationships of European countries, something the sinners want to avoid.

The UN is a bad place for keeping things secret, do you really believe the "EU" (or whoever) have a skeleton in the closet, and everybody knows it and doesn't tell about it? I also don't get your relativism of the CIA Black Sites. Two wrongs don't make a right, don't they.

The US won't blackmail its accomplices and hope for a horse-trade of any kind. That would increase the public exposure of its disputable practices and the CIA hopes that soon some grass grows over them. What will happen is that "Kidnap Air" searches alternative airports and the Council of Europe will succeed to end air transports of prisioners with no rights at least in its member states.

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: Czar
Starbuck1975,
Would you support foreign officials who just happen to be visiting the US to arrest US citizens and adbduct them to foreign military bases outside of the US where they would be lost for months or even years.

Is that legal to you?

In many cases, the host country is allowing it.

Are you talking about Iraq and Afghanistan (where the existance of souvereign state organs is dubious) or do you have other countries in mind?