EU Constitution Summit Fails

[charrison]

linkage

EU Leaders failed to work out differences over a new constitution for Europe on Saturday, despite a last-ditch effort by Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi for a compromise over voting rights.



Berlusconi, current holder of the EU presidency, was unable to avoid the scuppering of the talks designed to pave the way for a new EU constitution.



?At this time the conference has determined there is no agreement,? a spokesman for the Italian government told the Reuters news agency on Saturday afternoon.


European Union leaders meeting in Brussels this weekend had made little headway on the first day of the summit. At the heart of the dispute is the reluctance of Poland and Spain to accept newly weighted voting rights in the draft text, which would greatly reduce the influence of the two countries.



Berlusconi said earlier he would present a number of compromise suggestions, but had warned if the leaders failed to accept them all of the work the Italian EU presidency had put towards approving the constitution could be in vain.



?There?s still large differences over the vote-weighting,? he told journalists. ?Each suggestion is common sense and could make it possible to find a solution.?

 

[Red Dawn]

Hehehe they need an Electoral College like we have here

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Hehehe they need an Electoral College like we have here

I doubt they would adopt a system like ours...

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

It is kind of lame to give Spain or Poland (EU welfare queens) comparable voting power to Germany or France.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
It is kind of lame to give Spain or Poland (EU welfare queens) comparable voting power to Germany or France.

Well if I were Spain or Poland I wouldn't want either Germany or France to than them. I mean think about it, sharing borders with them must be bad enough, especially if you look at the history of Europe!

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Well they should have thought about that before joining up. Without France and Germany . . . Spain and Poland would be up the creek without a paddle. The vast majority of US aid provided to Spain/Poland comes in the form of grants/loans given so they can buy military equipment from US defense contractors. Support for sustainable infrastructure in these countries has come from net EU donors like France and Germany.

The original EU plan of nonproportional representation was a sweetheart deal but it was prefaced on an EU of 10+ members NOT 25. We tolerate colostomy bags like Robert Byrd, Trent Lott, and Richard Shelby shipping swine proceeds back to their respective states b/c we've got money to burn . . . plus we have proportional representation in the House to keep issues somewhat in perspective (granted, they waste even more money than the Senate). But our country would jeopardize it's very future if ethanol-producing states . . . or coal-producing states . . . could cobble together enough influence to set national energy policy . . . damn.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

charrison,

So how does this news tell us that universal healthcare will fail? I'm not making the link, but I know you intend there to be one...

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
charrison,

So how does this news tell us that universal healthcare will fail? I'm not making the link, but I know you intend there to be one...

I don't see anything there about healthcare?

 

[heartsurgeon]

It is kind of lame to give Spain or Poland (EU welfare queens) comparable voting power to Germany or France.....
they should have thought about that before joining up. Without France and Germany . . . Spain and Poland would be up the creek without a paddle

i believe Germany bombed the crap out of both Spain and Poland (remember WWII?, Guernica?). France? a very trustworthy ally.....

The summit "failed" because the French and the Germans are trying to renige on a voting system agreed upon three years ago that gave Spain, a member of the union, and Poland, which joins next year, almost as much voting weight each as Germany.

meanwhile, the French and Germans unilaterally chose to breach EU agreements concerning budget deficits in an effort to stimulate their economy.

gosh, Germans and the French doing whatever they want, inspite of previous agreements, going back on previous committments...I'm shocked and appalled!

get real..the Spanish and the Poles are fighting to keep from getting rolled over by the French and the Germans. It's a raw power grab by the Germans and French. Same reason Turkey will never be allowed into the EU..Turkey has to big a population (larger than Britain and France) to be allowed in because they will upset the balance of power..the French can barely admit they are second to Germany in the EU (in their own minds they are #1). Third behind Turkey? Mon Dieu! Impossible!

 

[Sunner]

Gee, what a surprise.

I hate the EU.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Gee, what a surprise.

I hate the EU.

Why?

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Sunner
Gee, what a surprise.

I hate the EU.

Why?

Cause I don't think it will ever work, at least not the way it's setup now.
It's a nice idea and all, but the various countries in Europe are too different to ever get along in any serious way.

Im amazed France and Germany manages to get along as good as they do, but I guess that's more an effect of their common goals.
Me, I feel I have alot in common with Norwegian people for example, I love Norway, but Spain? France? Germany? To me they're just countries like all other countries, Germany makes great cars, Spain makes some nice food, I guess France makes nice wine, but then, I hate wine

In the end, for the EU to be what alot of people seem to want it to be, the people of Europe would have to feel for each other what people in the US(for example) feel for each other, which just ain't gonna happen.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
charrison,

So how does this news tell us that universal healthcare will fail? I'm not making the link, but I know you intend there to be one...

what are you talking about?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
It's a raw power grab by the Germans and French. Same reason Turkey will never be allowed into the EU..Turkey has to big a population (larger than Britain and France) to be allowed in because they will upset the balance of power.

Its a power grab to want equal representation? To want a German's vote to count for as much as a Pole's vote? Weird definition of a power grab you have there.

In the end, Poland and Spain will back down, after all, beggers can't be choosers.



As for Turkey, I doubt they even know human rights are. They're a poor, undeveloped, authoritarian country and has few prospects of changing. But no, I am sure the EU doesn't care about those things, they just don't like muslims

 

[boran]

well it's not exactly a power grab, but it's some unlucky devision of the population france and germany would end up with more power because their population is that much higher than spain and poland. well there's allways next time as long as they're at least trying to get ahead I'm happy.

and nobody wants to give back candy they got.

 

[0roo0roo]

The summit "failed" because the French and the Germans are trying to renige on a voting system agreed upon three years ago that gave Spain, a member of the union, and Poland, which joins next year, almost as much voting weight each as Germany.

yea, sounds like dirty tricks. the ol bait and switch used by sales men, cept france was sellin the EU

 

[RabidMongoose]

Good for Poland and Spain.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
It's a raw power grab by the Germans and French. Same reason Turkey will never be allowed into the EU..Turkey has to big a population (larger than Britain and France) to be allowed in because they will upset the balance of power.

Its a power grab to want equal representation? To want a German's vote to count for as much as a Pole's vote? Weird definition of a power grab you have there.

In the end, Poland and Spain will back down, after all, beggers can't be choosers.

I don't think you read heartsurgeon's post. In case you missed it, it's further at the top.



As for Turkey, I doubt they even know human rights are. They're a poor, undeveloped, authoritarian country and has few prospects of changing. But no, I am sure the EU doesn't care about those things, they just don't like muslims

Your name suits you well if you believe the crap you just wrote.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

It is kind of lame to give Spain or Poland (EU welfare queens) comparable voting power to Germany or France.....
they should have thought about that before joining up. Without France and Germany . . . Spain and Poland would be up the creek without a paddle

i believe Germany bombed the crap out of both Spain and Poland (remember WWII?, Guernica?). France? a very trustworthy ally.....

The summit "failed" because the French and the Germans are trying to renige on a voting system agreed upon three years ago that gave Spain, a member of the union, and Poland, which joins next year, almost as much voting weight each as Germany.

meanwhile, the French and Germans unilaterally chose to breach EU agreements concerning budget deficits in an effort to stimulate their economy.

gosh, Germans and the French doing whatever they want, inspite of previous agreements, going back on previous committments...I'm shocked and appalled!

get real..the Spanish and the Poles are fighting to keep from getting rolled over by the French and the Germans. It's a raw power grab by the Germans and French. Same reason Turkey will never be allowed into the EU..Turkey has to big a population (larger than Britain and France) to be allowed in because they will upset the balance of power..the French can barely admit they are second to Germany in the EU (in their own minds they are #1). Third behind Turkey? Mon Dieu! Impossible!

You Sir, aint got no clue - despite your polemic strong man speak...

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

It is kind of lame to give Spain or Poland (EU welfare queens) comparable voting power to Germany or France.....
they should have thought about that before joining up. Without France and Germany . . . Spain and Poland would be up the creek without a paddle

i believe Germany bombed the crap out of both Spain and Poland (remember WWII?, Guernica?). France? a very trustworthy ally.....

The summit "failed" because the French and the Germans are trying to renige on a voting system agreed upon three years ago that gave Spain, a member of the union, and Poland, which joins next year, almost as much voting weight each as Germany.

meanwhile, the French and Germans unilaterally chose to breach EU agreements concerning budget deficits in an effort to stimulate their economy.

gosh, Germans and the French doing whatever they want, inspite of previous agreements, going back on previous committments...I'm shocked and appalled!

get real..the Spanish and the Poles are fighting to keep from getting rolled over by the French and the Germans. It's a raw power grab by the Germans and French. Same reason Turkey will never be allowed into the EU..Turkey has to big a population (larger than Britain and France) to be allowed in because they will upset the balance of power..the French can barely admit they are second to Germany in the EU (in their own minds they are #1). Third behind Turkey? Mon Dieu! Impossible!

You Sir, aint got no clue - despite your polemic strong man speak...

Can you point out his mistakes?
Not saying that there are or aren't any, but it would be interesting to see where/if he was wrong.

 

[B00ne]

look in the other thread : EU simmit 'may' fail...
thread

There is no use debating this. Dari & Co will tell u that France and Germany are out for domination, and that Poland and Spain are perfectly right in their request to have one of their citizen count as much as two German. I will debate with mathematics. It goes back and forth and everyone thinks the other person is an ignorant A-hole

 

[RabidMongoose]

Well aren't Poland and Spain perfectly in their rights to veto this? It seems as if a previous agreement was laid out and everyone agreed to it. Now people want to change the original deal - but Poland and Spain don't want to change it for obvious reasons...who would actually give up power?
Seems like a weird situation...ideally you want something that could balance the two (population and country), but shouldn't the previous agreement be honored, too? Or am I missing something here? I haven't been following this closely at all.

 

[B00ne]

I dont know exactly. Nizza was a very bad compromise and it was agreed that this would have to be changed in the next summit. Because that Nizza deal would make the EU ungovernable with more members.
Poland and Spain do not want to change their position because with their voting power it is now even easier for them to press money out of the rest (well mainly us, since Germany is paying more on a per person basis than any other country). Spain on the other hand receive more than anyone else in the EU. Sonn it will be Poland in Spains position....

Anyway since they want money they will makw concession in the next round because the next thing coming up will be the financial plan for the money distribution. And since they want to continue to receive alot - they will have to give something (else)....

 

[boran]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Well aren't Poland and Spain perfectly in their rights to veto this? It seems as if a previous agreement was laid out and everyone agreed to it. Now people want to change the original deal - but Poland and Spain don't want to change it for obvious reasons...who would actually give up power?
Seems like a weird situation...ideally you want something that could balance the two (population and country), but shouldn't the previous agreement be honored, too? Or am I missing something here? I haven't been following this closely at all.

it's the other way around, a deal was made, and now poland and spain want to change the rules so they keep their power of 2 germans = 1 pole.

 

[RabidMongoose]

What deal was made originally though? To me it looks like Poland and Spain want to keep the original rules b/c it obviously helps them out and those were the original terms. Shouldn't the previous contract still hold?