Ethics in Distributed Computing

[Cyro]

I am doing a report for school of the ethics on the proposed ideas of pay distributed computing (getting paid for WU's), forced distributed computing (government mandated and controlled), and a distributed computing program built into windows that can be shut off but comes on by default (like MSN messanger). I forget who the windows one was proposed by but it gave you the options of what you wanted to process on first install, so you had the choice on what the process. I was wondering if anyone here had any ideas on the ethical issues of any of them and what would there implementations bring about.

Thanks for the ideas,
Mike

 

[sswingle]

I think it is wrong to force people to run distributed computing. Having it on by default and giving the option to turn it off is not good enough IMO, because many people don't know or don't bother to turn stuff off.

As for payed distributed computing, that would be cool. I tried to sign up for one once, forget what it was called. They told me they had enough people from my geographic area and didn't accept me into the program


However, paid programs kinda defeat the purpose of DC. If SETI or United Devices had to pay their users, they wouldn't be able to afford to keep going. Projects like SOB, RC5, etc would be even more pointless on a paid system, since they aren't really computing anything useful.

 

[vss1980]

Originally posted by: pwddesign

However, paid programs kinda defeat the purpose of DC. If SETI or United Devices had to pay their users, they wouldn't be able to afford to keep going. Projects like SOB, RC5, etc would be even more pointless on a paid system, since they aren't really computing anything useful.

Yeah, but remember things like RC5 do have a prize fund for the winning person/group. That will always help to entice some into it no matter how remote the chances are.

- What??? You mean people out there aren't doing things for the stats or out of the goodness of their hearts???
Yep, exactly. I can already see the flame responses of blasphemy

 

[Confused]

Originally posted by: pwddesign
However, paid programs kinda defeat the purpose of DC. If SETI or United Devices had to pay their users, they wouldn't be able to afford to keep going. Projects like SOB, RC5, etc would be even more pointless on a paid system, since they aren't really computing anything useful.

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt on the "aren't computing anything useful" bit


Concentrate, here comes the science bit!


I feel that pay-for-run DC is not ethically correct. Many DC projects are run not only for the fact to see how well something would work on a distributed scale, but because it is cheaper for them to be run on machines that they don't have to pay for.

I don't like the idea of forced DC, I participate in DC projects because I want to, on the machines I own, and will run the projects that I want to.

However, I do like the idea of having a DC projects as an option within the OS, say as a screensaver. It would be nice for the users to choose whether they want their computers to do something productive when they aren't using it, rather than displaying those stupid rotating 3d boxes or scrolling marquees with stupid phrases! However, this should be an "off by default" thing, not "on by default".


That's all I can think of for the moment, lemme have a think (and a read of other's comments) and i shall revise my explanation


Garry

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Confused

Originally posted by: pwddesign
However, paid programs kinda defeat the purpose of DC. If SETI or United Devices had to pay their users, they wouldn't be able to afford to keep going. Projects like SOB, RC5, etc would be even more pointless on a paid system, since they aren't really computing anything useful.

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt on the "aren't computing anything useful" bit


Concentrate, here comes the science bit!


I feel that pay-for-run DC is not ethically correct. Many DC projects are run not only for the fact to see how well something would work on a distributed scale, but because it is cheaper for them to be run on machines that they don't have to pay for.

I don't like the idea of forced DC, I participate in DC projects because I want to, on the machines I own, and will run the projects that I want to.

However, I do like the idea of having a DC projects as an option within the OS, say as a screensaver. It would be nice for the users to choose whether they want their computers to do something productive when they aren't using it, rather than displaying those stupid rotating 3d boxes or scrolling marquees with stupid phrases! However, this should be an "off by default" thing, not "on by default".


That's all I can think of for the moment, lemme have a think (and a read of other's comments) and i shall revise my explanation

Garry

Putting the Technology into the OS as a choice is what I have been proposing when I speak at Conventions.

The Computer is just a tool for Mankind and it is just the right thing to do to at least have the chance for the machines to have the possibility of benefitting Mankind when Man is not using the machine.

There should not be any forcing either way nor payments involved.

If you are new here you might like to click on and check out my sig and see what happened when a State School and the State itself felt that the Technology is Evil and Illegal. They actually wanted to do away with the Technology but they went after me an individual first and the Distributed Computing Community both here and Worldwide saved me and helped them "Grow a Brain" as many said.

 

[vss1980]

I'm not against paid DC. I think its a great idea.... if a company like Dreamworks or Pixar decided to make use of the worlds PC's to cut their costs. At least these kinds of companies can afford it because they will get lots back from the cinema/video/dvd releases of the films they make. If it was an integrated part of windows, I have no problem as long as it can be turned off, and if it is on it's the user that recieves the payment for their services and not Microsoft for bundling it.

And yes, the choice to run it should be the system owners and nobody elses. But in terms of an office environment, that means that if the system admin's want it on or off, the users really have no say as they are not responsible for the machines.

 

[mastertech01]

I dont think integrating it into the OS would be accepted by most computer makers. We here at AnandTech have our systems built up by thine self... and we have them setup with adequate cooling to handle the heat produced by continous 100 percent CPU utilization. Many of us have the cases open in air conditioned environment just to keep them cool enough. We also change our systems like many people change oil on thier cars.. every few months, and we know how to maintain them for this heavy duty environment. The bulk of the population keep thier shiny new systems for much longer and durability would be questionable on a standard home box bought from the local office store.

However it would be nice to include information regarding DC and all the possible programs with the computer documentation which could generate a lot more participation. SO MANY people have NEVER even heard of distributed computing. An education program would be great.

 

[Robor]

I think it would be great to have it integrated into the OS but either not turned on by default or the user should be prompted during the install. Also, the end user should have the choice of which project to participate in and if there is any prize/$$$ in return it should go to the end user (not a for profit company).

 

[RaySun2Be]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
I dont think integrating it into the OS would be accepted by most computer makers. We here at AnandTech have our systems built up by thine self... and we have them setup with adequate cooling to handle the heat produced by continous 100 percent CPU utilization. Many of us have the cases open in air conditioned environment just to keep them cool enough. We also change our systems like many people change oil on thier cars.. every few months, and we know how to maintain them for this heavy duty environment. The bulk of the population keep thier shiny new systems for much longer and durability would be questionable on a standard home box bought from the local office store.

However it would be nice to include information regarding DC and all the possible programs with the computer documentation which could generate a lot more participation. SO MANY people have NEVER even heard of distributed computing. An education program would be great.

Many of us have run and continue to run DC projects on company fleets, using standard off the shelf PCs, (Compaq, Dell, etc.) and have found no adverse affects of running the PCs 24/7, 100% capacity.

I think you would find more of an issue with smaller companies and home users, that choose to get E-machines or PowerSpecs, the cheapest things they can, instead of purchasing machines from the main manufacturers.

And I would suspect that computer makers might not object, as they could champion the cause to look good, while potentially looking at a shorter time to obsolencence.

I think it would be great if the DC clients were part of the operating system setup, with the DEFAULT set to NOT run, but with information included in the documentation about the benefits, etc. so a user could opt in if they want.

And as far as company users being forced to run it, with the fleets that are running now, they don't have a choice on a lot of things anyway )operating system, office software, etc.), it IS the company's equipment. And if a DC project has been approved to run on the corporate fleet, then so be it.

 

[JWMiddleton]

Originally posted by: Cyro

...and a distributed computing program built into windows that can be shut off but comes on by default (like MSN messanger). I forget who the windows one was proposed by but it gave you the options of what you wanted to process on first install, so you had the choice on what the process.

Mike

I would love to see that! Why waste the cycles? If someone doesn't know enought to turn it off then they will not even know it is there. So, what is the big deal? I would want to be able to determine which DC project my time is given to though.

A few of us have learned that you will never get enough money from paid projects to cover one's costs. So, I would rather have that as an option of the people running the project. If they have the money to spend then more power to them. (no pun intended.)

Good luck with the report!

 

[Cyro]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I think im going to include a little section in my report about the feelings of the computer community when asked about the ethical issues.

Keep them coming.

-Mike

 

[Cyro]

Bump. Anyone have any other ideas on the ethics of these matters?

-Mike

 

[pcdeatherage]

Having DC built into/in conjunction with the hardware and/or operating system is just a bit much. We are aleady bombarded with enough unwanted/unnecessary stuff. This is like the hidden-in-plain-sight registration that defaults to putting you on a mail list and you have to uncheck it at registration time...even the search engines are getting into the act...between email and software installs, sure, what's one more? If we allow it to happen, then we deserve what we get.

Government forced/mandated? Please and no thank you. If we allow THAT to happen then we REALLY deserve what we get.

Want me to run your DC project? Give me a decent project with a decent client. Run it half-way decently (meaning care about what you're doing) and maintain it well (heck, I'd settle for a try hard to maintain it well)...prizes are optional but not necessary.

I believe with 4 million users, Seti has proved that forced participation and/or prizes are not required.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: mastertech01
I dont think integrating it into the OS would be accepted by most computer makers. We here at AnandTech have our systems built up by thine self... and we have them setup with adequate cooling to handle the heat produced by continous 100 percent CPU utilization. Many of us have the cases open in air conditioned environment just to keep them cool enough. We also change our systems like many people change oil on thier cars.. every few months, and we know how to maintain them for this heavy duty environment. The bulk of the population keep thier shiny new systems for much longer and durability would be questionable on a standard home box bought from the local office store.

However it would be nice to include information regarding DC and all the possible programs with the computer documentation which could generate a lot more participation. SO MANY people have NEVER even heard of distributed computing. An education program would be great.

I agree completely with the second paragraph of this statement, but not the first. There are many boxes being used in DC projects right now,without fail, that are your mainstream boxes.. Dell, Compaq HP..etc. The machines are just fine for almost all DC projects and certainly all the ones that this forum covers. Now they may not be the biggest baddest crunchers that alot of us want and have but that is another discussion.

 

[Confused]

Originally posted by: dnuggett

Originally posted by: mastertech01
I dont think integrating it into the OS would be accepted by most computer makers. We here at AnandTech have our systems built up by thine self... and we have them setup with adequate cooling to handle the heat produced by continous 100 percent CPU utilization. Many of us have the cases open in air conditioned environment just to keep them cool enough. We also change our systems like many people change oil on thier cars.. every few months, and we know how to maintain them for this heavy duty environment. The bulk of the population keep thier shiny new systems for much longer and durability would be questionable on a standard home box bought from the local office store.

However it would be nice to include information regarding DC and all the possible programs with the computer documentation which could generate a lot more participation. SO MANY people have NEVER even heard of distributed computing. An education program would be great.

I agree completely with the second paragraph of this statement, but not the first. There are many boxes being used in DC projects right now,without fail, that are your mainstream boxes.. Dell, Compaq HP..etc. The machines are just fine for almost all DC projects and certainly all the ones that this forum covers. Now they may not be the biggest baddest crunchers that alot of us want and have but that is another discussion.

The majority of my "fleet" are Dell P4 machines, some even their SX240 small form factor ones, and the heat output from them is still acceptable, and within the limits of the components. The OEMs do a lot of R&D to make sure that their computers/cases aren't going to overheat, as that could cause them more problems in the future, as they can't have Jo/Joe (gotta be PC ) Bloggs has that piece of spyware on their computer that runs at 100% CPU and causes it to overheat to come back to say Dell and it's not working, that's not good. But, as crunchers, they work pretty well, hell, a P100 is better than nothing, it still does work!

Originally posted by: pcdeatherage
Having DC built into/in conjunction with the hardware and/or operating system is just a bit much. We are aleady bombarded with enough unwanted/unnecessary stuff. This is like the hidden-in-plain-sight registration that defaults to putting you on a mail list and you have to uncheck it at registration time...even the search engines are getting into the act...between email and software installs, sure, what's one more? If we allow it to happen, then we deserve what we get.

We are not thinking of having it as some kind of "spyware" which there is no option (or a VERY hidden one) to turn it off/uninstall/not install. We are thinking about having some kind of DC application available to run when your screensaver comes on. Some people when they get computers check out all the screensavers as the first thing they do. Why not have an option for a DC app, with an explanation, then they will see that and think that they might has well try it out.

Originally posted by: pcdeatherage
Government forced/mandated? Please and no thank you. If we allow THAT to happen then we REALLY deserve what we get.

I agree with you here, I would not want any program forced to be ran on my computer.

Originally posted by: pcdeatherage
Want me to run your DC project? Give me a decent project with a decent client. Run it half-way decently (meaning care about what you're doing) and maintain it well (heck, I'd settle for a try hard to maintain it well)...prizes are optional but not necessary.

I believe with 4 million users, Seti has proved that forced participation and/or prizes are not required.

Yep, again, I agree with you here, the Seti@home project has proved that the DC model works, and a cash prize or "cash-to-run" is not needed for a positive return. Also, I agree that the client needs to have active support and is well tested...and that when bugs occur they are rectified quickly. Of course most people here know to check the official site if there are problems, and keep checked for an updated client. But how many end users don't keep their antivirus (which they've probably gone out and paid for) up to date. How many don't do their Windows update (and subsequentially got hit by Blaster and the like) or other security updates. Why would they worry about getting a better DC client!


I gotta run, for now <Looney Toons> That's all folks! </Looney Toons>


Garry

 

[pcdeatherage]

Originally posted by: Confused
We are not thinking of having it as some kind of "spyware" which there is no option (or a VERY hidden one) to turn it off/uninstall/not install. We are thinking about having some kind of DC application available to run when your screensaver comes on. Some people when they get computers check out all the screensavers as the first thing they do. Why not have an option for a DC app, with an explanation, then they will see that and think that they might has well try it out.

That would be good...and/or anything else that would promote DC in a good way...

"Grandpa, what's a screensaver?"
(chuckle) "Why honey, that's those things we used to run in the old days before SETI 73"