Ethical consequences of the use of torture by democratic western nations

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowskiSo they used waterboarding, sleep depreviation and air conditioning. OMG the HORROR.
"They" have also used physical assault/abuse, strangulation techniques, application of electric current to genitals and other bodyparts and so on.

Before this whole whoopdedo I remember people being outraged over tourture techniques employed by third world countries that included cutting off hands, feet, and other body parts. Murdering family members in front of other family members, rape, mutilation, ect.
This has happened also in the war on terror. In '06, a group of US servicemen were arrested for murdering an Iraqui girl's mother, father and little sister in front of her, and then repeatedly raping her before murdering her as well.

However, this is only incidental, and not the reason for creating the topic.

And that was just a form of punishment for minor crimes. Now we have people openly fighting the US and we can't make them pull all nighters? No wonder America is going down the drain, there are more pussies here than at Lilith Fair.
So if you don't get down and boogie with torture, you're a "pussy"?

I take it you have no moral qualms about using torture. Have you actually considered WHY torture has at least historically been considered a deplorable practice in western democracies? I mean, pre-seven-eleven. Post, things get a bit blurry, particulary in certain right-wing circles.

Now here's a hint for you: the reason is that if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard than your adversaries - or at least claim to - then you CAN'T act like they do and still be able to say with any degree of credibility that you are any better than them.

Innocent until proven guilty by a court of law and all that, you know?

Well, maybe you reason they don't deserve such treatment. Maybe you reason, if they got themselves captured in the first place, it was probably for a reason, and reason being they are "evil-doers" and thus don't deserve decent humane treatment or the benefit of a doubt.

Ok, so we arrest you then. Why? Well you tell us! If you're arrested, it stands to reason you're guilty of something, right? Why else would you be arrested, you don't go arresting innocent people! Now you will tell us exactly what it is you're guilty of... We're gonna waterboard you 'til you puke, and keep you naked on your feet in a chilly room 'til you can't stand anymore. Then we beat you up and make you stand some more. This isn't torture, see? Nothing wrong with this, we're defending the nation. You're not a pussy, are you?

After long enough of this, I'm sure you'll be quite willing to admit to just about anything.

In case my point is slipping you by here, it basically is that many, many countries on this planet have treated their people this way, lots still do. The police or military, or paramilitary forces etc (depending on the country in question) could arrest you at any moment and for no reason, torture the hell out of you, and likely disappear you. Often for no discernible reason.

Torture - on top of being a despiccable practice - simply isn't a reliable means of extracting accurate information. The person being tortured is liable to make up information he thinks his captors want to hear, just to make the torture stop. This is well-known in intelligence-gathering circles.

Western nations typically pride themselves on having rule of law. It's disturbing (major understatement!) to see how eager many americans are to just simply throw our laws and ethics right out the window. You'd think history would have taught us all that nothing good can come from going down that path.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowskiSo they used waterboarding, sleep depreviation and air conditioning. OMG the HORROR.
"They" have also used physical assault/abuse, strangulation techniques, application of electric current to genitals and other bodyparts and so on.

Before this whole whoopdedo I remember people being outraged over tourture techniques employed by third world countries that included cutting off hands, feet, and other body parts. Murdering family members in front of other family members, rape, mutilation, ect.
This has happened also in the war on terror. In '06, a group of US servicemen were arrested for murdering an Iraqui girl's mother, father and little sister in front of her, and then repeatedly raping her before murdering her as well.

However, this is only incidental, and not the reason for creating the topic.

And that was just a form of punishment for minor crimes. Now we have people openly fighting the US and we can't make them pull all nighters? No wonder America is going down the drain, there are more pussies here than at Lilith Fair.
So if you don't get down and boogie with torture, you're a "pussy"?

I take it you have no moral qualms about using torture. Have you actually considered WHY torture has at least historically been considered a deplorable practice in western democracies? I mean, pre-seven-eleven. Post, things get a bit blurry, particulary in certain right-wing circles.

Now here's a hint for you: the reason is that if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard than your adversaries - or at least claim to - then you CAN'T act like they do and still be able to say with any degree of credibility that you are any better than them.

Innocent until proven guilty by a court of law and all that, you know?

Well, maybe you reason they don't deserve such treatment. Maybe you reason, if they got themselves captured in the first place, it was probably for a reason, and reason being they are "evil-doers" and thus don't deserve decent humane treatment or the benefit of a doubt.

Ok, so we arrest you then. Why? Well you tell us! If you're arrested, it stands to reason you're guilty of something, right? Why else would you be arrested, you don't go arresting innocent people! Now you will tell us exactly what it is you're guilty of... We're gonna waterboard you 'til you puke, and keep you naked on your feet in a chilly room 'til you can't stand anymore. Then we beat you up and make you stand some more. This isn't torture, see? Nothing wrong with this, we're defending the nation. You're not a pussy, are you?

After long enough of this, I'm sure you'll be quite willing to admit to just about anything.

In case my point is slipping you by here, it basically is that many, many countries on this planet have treated their people this way, lots still do. The police or military, or paramilitary forces etc (depending on the country in question) could arrest you at any moment and for no reason, torture the hell out of you, and likely disappear you. Often for no discernible reason.

Torture - on top of being a despiccable practice - simply isn't a reliable means of extracting accurate information. The person being tortured is liable to make up information he thinks his captors want to hear, just to make the torture stop. This is well-known in intelligence-gathering circles.

Western nations typically pride themselves on having rule of law. It's disturbing (major understatement!) to see how eager many americans are to just simply throw our laws and ethics right out the window. You'd think history would have taught us all that nothing good can come from going down that path.

you are quoting a different thread and starting a new one about the same thing?

here's a thought

A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high seas?

B. Bleeding heart libs screamed why didn't you do anything it took to save us from 9/11

C. Pelosi practically signed off on torture as the ranking member of the intelligence committee.

D. You can ask control questions that you already know the answers to to see if they are telling the truth.

E. Torturing terrorist killers is Aok with me. Much better than giving them Rights of an American whose rights they themselves violated in some cases. That is straight WACKED!

/peace

 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
So ExMan - we should sink to their level?

Glad to hear there's a level of maturity I've come to expect on this issue.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
So ExMan - we should sink to their level?

Glad to hear there's a level of maturity I've come to expect on this issue.

These people cut off the heads of people are we doing that? No. We're pouring water on someone that is done on a regular basis to our own troops as training. We suggest putting a guy in a box with a catapillar and never do it but that is the same as cutting off heads?

get real.
 

Jschmuck2

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
5,623
3
81
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.
Post 9/11 you probably asked Why Bush? Why didn't you do more?


You giving them rights as Americans emboldens their compatriots and shows them that we are a bunch of big pussies that have no balls to stand up to thugs and bullies.

I suppose you want to go use diplomacy with a guy that lives in a hole and likes to cut infadels heads off. Why don't you try that.

why you got your panties in a bunch?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

You're against the death penalty I presume?
 

Lazy8s

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2004
1,503
0
0
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

I love how your entire argument hinges on not stooping to or below your enemy's level yet it is your solution in your second post in this thread.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,748
6,319
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.
Post 9/11 you probably asked Why Bush? Why didn't you do more?


You giving them rights as Americans emboldens their compatriots and shows them that we are a bunch of big pussies that have no balls to stand up to thugs and bullies.

I suppose you want to go use diplomacy with a guy that lives in a hole and likes to cut infadels heads off. Why don't you try that.

why you got your panties in a bunch?

You're an idiot.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
EXman

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but... If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

Now you're just being an ass. You can't possibly be serious that you have no concept of the differences in your "point A".

Feel free to quote my position on how to treat terrorists in this thread instead of inventing one.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.
Post 9/11 you probably asked Why Bush? Why didn't you do more?


You giving them rights as Americans emboldens their compatriots and shows them that we are a bunch of big pussies that have no balls to stand up to thugs and bullies.

I suppose you want to go use diplomacy with a guy that lives in a hole and likes to cut infadels heads off. Why don't you try that.

why you got your panties in a bunch?

You're an idiot.

:roll: ouch that hurt... I think you are a pussy so what.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,748
6,319
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

JESUS CHRIST YOU STUPID FUCK! IT'S ALREADY LIKE THAT! CURRENTLY! NOW! IN THE PRESENT! IN THIS COUNTRY!

If an armed guy is threatening to kill an American now, as in, he has a schoolbus full of nuns hostage and the police shoot him, it's because he was an immediate danger to those people.

If he cuts all of those nuns into tiny habit-bits with a chainsaw and then is caught by the police they put him on TRIAL! TRIAL! BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THIS COUNTRY WORKS!

EDIT:

And this does not apply only to American criminals. It applies to everyone because we are (for the most part) a civilized and moral country and we do things the right fucking way. If people like you were in charge we'd still be shoving hot pokers up assholes.

These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.
Post 9/11 you probably asked Why Bush? Why didn't you do more?


You giving them rights as Americans emboldens their compatriots and shows them that we are a bunch of big pussies that have no balls to stand up to thugs and bullies.

I suppose you want to go use diplomacy with a guy that lives in a hole and likes to cut infadels heads off. Why don't you try that.

why you got your panties in a bunch?

You're an idiot.

:roll: ouch that hurt... I think you are a pussy so what.

Go sleep.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
So EXman, being opposed to torture equals being a pussy? Is this part of some macho man code? Does the code forbid the use of logic? Do you advocate that human rights only apply to Americans? You sound befuddled and afraid.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
"A. Torturing killers is bad but Killing them is ok If BHO does it on the high sees?"

Truly an argument for the feeble minded.

How can you possibly equate shooting an armed criminal threatening to kill an innocent hostage with abusing an essentially helpless person already in custody?

So an armed guy threatening an American is punishable by the ultimate price but...

If you Kill an American and happen to be caught you want to by them a coffee?

why do you even post on these forums?
Every thread you post in you use bizarre and very twisted "logic" to explain away your twisted outlook on life!!

Please crawl back under the rock you came from...thx
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
err, damn quotes.

Gist of it, what sandorski said, "Go To Sleep" EXman.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Originally posted by: FaaR
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowskiSo they used waterboarding, sleep depreviation and air conditioning. OMG the HORROR.
"They" have also used physical assault/abuse, strangulation techniques, application of electric current to genitals and other bodyparts and so on.

Before this whole whoopdedo I remember people being outraged over tourture techniques employed by third world countries that included cutting off hands, feet, and other body parts. Murdering family members in front of other family members, rape, mutilation, ect.
This has happened also in the war on terror. In '06, a group of US servicemen were arrested for murdering an Iraqui girl's mother, father and little sister in front of her, and then repeatedly raping her before murdering her as well.

However, this is only incidental, and not the reason for creating the topic.

And that was just a form of punishment for minor crimes. Now we have people openly fighting the US and we can't make them pull all nighters? No wonder America is going down the drain, there are more pussies here than at Lilith Fair.
So if you don't get down and boogie with torture, you're a "pussy"?

I take it you have no moral qualms about using torture. Have you actually considered WHY torture has at least historically been considered a deplorable practice in western democracies? I mean, pre-seven-eleven. Post, things get a bit blurry, particulary in certain right-wing circles.

Now here's a hint for you: the reason is that if you hold yourself to a higher moral standard than your adversaries - or at least claim to - then you CAN'T act like they do and still be able to say with any degree of credibility that you are any better than them.

Innocent until proven guilty by a court of law and all that, you know?

Well, maybe you reason they don't deserve such treatment. Maybe you reason, if they got themselves captured in the first place, it was probably for a reason, and reason being they are "evil-doers" and thus don't deserve decent humane treatment or the benefit of a doubt.

Ok, so we arrest you then. Why? Well you tell us! If you're arrested, it stands to reason you're guilty of something, right? Why else would you be arrested, you don't go arresting innocent people! Now you will tell us exactly what it is you're guilty of... We're gonna waterboard you 'til you puke, and keep you naked on your feet in a chilly room 'til you can't stand anymore. Then we beat you up and make you stand some more. This isn't torture, see? Nothing wrong with this, we're defending the nation. You're not a pussy, are you?

After long enough of this, I'm sure you'll be quite willing to admit to just about anything.

In case my point is slipping you by here, it basically is that many, many countries on this planet have treated their people this way, lots still do. The police or military, or paramilitary forces etc (depending on the country in question) could arrest you at any moment and for no reason, torture the hell out of you, and likely disappear you. Often for no discernible reason.

Torture - on top of being a despiccable practice - simply isn't a reliable means of extracting accurate information. The person being tortured is liable to make up information he thinks his captors want to hear, just to make the torture stop. This is well-known in intelligence-gathering circles.

Western nations typically pride themselves on having rule of law. It's disturbing (major understatement!) to see how eager many americans are to just simply throw our laws and ethics right out the window. You'd think history would have taught us all that nothing good can come from going down that path.


You're right, we shouldn't torture. Instead we should treat terrorists exactly as pirates have been historically, hostis humani generis, "enemies of the human race," and thus subject to summary execution.
 

AFMatt

Senior member
Aug 14, 2008
248
0
0
Originally posted by: EXman
These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.
Post 9/11 you probably asked Why Bush? Why didn't you do more?


You giving them rights as Americans emboldens their compatriots and shows them that we are a bunch of big pussies that have no balls to stand up to thugs and bullies.

I suppose you want to go use diplomacy with a guy that lives in a hole and likes to cut infadels heads off. Why don't you try that.

why you got your panties in a bunch?

Who said anything about "giving them rights as Americans?" Regardless of who or what they are, we, the US, shouldn't be torturing anyone.
The fact that we did torture some detainess probably did more to support their cause than stopping the torture ever will.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
18
0
Torture is rarely done for information gathering. Although torture can be effective under certain circumstances or with certain individuals, it is mostly done for the amusement of the torturer. The best solution to solve the so-called "ethical consequences" of torture is to simply ban it outright, and do it secretly. This is basically what the Obama administration is doing now. They are publicly denouncing torture to satisfy the public, while secretly condoning it. Of course they will not be torturing on a mass scale, instead, they will be using torture properly -- on those individuals who are most susceptible to it. The Bush administration failed to do this, so I'm glad to see that Obama is doing things correctly.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: EXman
E. Torturing terrorist killers is Aok with me. Much better than giving them Rights of an American whose rights they themselves violated in some cases. That is straight WACKED!

/peace

It's ironic that you sign off with "/peace", while eagerly agreeing that we should torture other people. Well played. Double standard much?

And this another reason why we can see that schools aren't doing a good job. Because when you can say with a straight face that because one side broke the law and committed horrific acts, it is justified for us to break the law and commit horrific acts. Does anyone teach the laws of our country anymore?

Would you like to explain how one illegal acts makes another illegal act somehow legal?
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: EXman

These are terrorists and not just criminals.
They are not American.
They do not get rights as Americans.
They are not in America.
Their Crimes mostly did not all happen in our boarders.

1. So what? Terrorists are criminals

2. So what, that doesn't matter. If someone from Mexico (or any country) breaks a US law, they still get arrested and convicted within our US legal system. And they get the same rights if you were arrested in the US. Seriously, do you know anything?

3. See above, once we take them into custody, they do.

4. So what? We have a long history or grabbing terrorists and bringing them back tot he US for trial, again, by the US legal system with all the rights that means.

5. So what? See above

Do you have any clue about our legal system, or are you just the typical red-neck that says "screw everyone else, we are the US and we can do whatever we want without regard to the law".

Do you think that all suspected murderers should be tortured to make sure we catch them? Or that we can kill them all so we don't have to try them? It's the same thing.

Grow up and educate yourself.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
Originally posted by: EXman
E. Torturing terrorist killers is Aok with me. Much better than giving them Rights of an American whose rights they themselves violated in some cases. That is straight WACKED!

/peace

It's ironic that you sign off with "/peace", while eagerly agreeing that we should torture other people. Well played. Double standard much?

And this another reason why we can see that schools aren't doing a good job. Because when you can say with a straight face that because one side broke the law and committed horrific acts, it is justified for us to break the law and commit horrific acts. Does anyone teach the laws of our country anymore?

You need to get your sarcasm meter checked. ;) Which means the rest of your arguement was based on that bad assuption. Your second post is rubbish. :)


Since it was late last night I probably should have made something more clear.

If we catch a terrorist in the act or thank goodness just in the begining process of the act simply throwing him in jail is anything but proactive. I'm not worried about any legalities. As far as i am concerned terrorists caught in the act forfeit any and all rights. If a Terrorist attack is eminent we need intel Now! If we catch a terrorist in the western province of Iraq they need to be worked over to see if they have any information on hostages/plots/roadside bombs/ etc...

You all try to want to have a US legal system try foreign national terrorists. That is loco.

This is my opinion I'm entitled to it and I really don't give a hoot if you don't agree. You are entitled to have yours. Unlike many others in this thread.
If you noticed I have not told anyone what else to think. I don't mind the attacks. Regardless of what the chubby cat assumes:

Presidents (and their delegates) have detained enemy combatants in every major conflict in the Nation?s history, including recent conflicts such as the Gulf, Vietnam, and Korean wars. During World War II, the United States detained hundreds of thousands of POWs in the United States (some of whom were U.S. citizens) without trial or counsel. Then as now, the purposes of detaining enemy combatants during wartime are, among other things, to gather intelligence and to ensure that detainees do not return to assist the enemy.


The non-citizen detainees in Guantanamo have no right to habeas corpus relief in U.S. courts. See, e.g., Coalition of Clergy v. Bush, 189 F. Supp. 2d 1036 (C.D. Cal. 2002), affirmed on other grounds, 2002 U.S. App. LEXIS 23705 (9th Cir. Nov. 18, 2002). As noted above, however, we have permitted the ICRC access to the detainees, and we have notified each detainee?s country of origin that the detainee is in DoD control.

Hell Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the civil war something that I has so been educated to, but it seems like most Libs here like to invoke Lincoln but don't know that even before Lincoln Presidents hold people and get stuff done. Why to protect us. Do we want to know? No ignorance is bliss. Does this tarnish Abraham Lincoln? Hell no. Does it Tarnish FDR? Truman? JFK? nope...

I know some of y'alls idealism is everything but let us be pragmatic like our new president...