Ethereum GPU mining?

[aleader]

Are you connecting to the closest Ethermine server? What's your ping to it? Is your miner hard wired? I typically have 0-1% on Ethermine, never had more than that.

I'm on the closest one to me, yes (US West). The ping is 24ms average, so quite low. Yes, hardwired ethernet, 300 Mbps. I have been checking today and get 0 stale since the last post. The Ethermine phone app shows 0 stale, as does lolminer, but the website one was showing some when I originally posted. I did have a driver crash and restart. It's been running good since (about 6 hours).

I'm now getting a MH/s/W of 0.546, and the power has dropped to 96W. It's odd because I was playing around with the voltages and clocks, but settled right back where I was before. The power usage seems to drop over time and then settles. Is that normal? I noticed that in Nicehash too, but it never got lower than 102W.

 

[ozzy702]

I'm on the closest one to me, yes (US West). The ping is 24ms average, so quite low. Yes, hardwired ethernet, 300 Mbps. I have been checking today and get 0 stale since the last post. The Ethermine phone app shows 0 stale, as does lolminer, but the website one was showing some when I originally posted. I did have a driver crash and restart. It's been running good since (about 6 hours).

I'm now getting a MH/s/W of 0.546, and the power has dropped to 96W. It's odd because I was playing around with the voltages and clocks, but settled right back where I was before. The power usage seems to drop over time and then settles. Is that normal? I noticed that in Nicehash too, but it never got lower than 102W.

Trying to run memory to hard will cause stale shares, but that should be reported on the miner. That weird on the power usage, I don't know what could account for that other than possible throttling. Is your hashrate stable and consistent?

 

[aleader]

Trying to run memory to hard will cause stale shares, but that should be reported on the miner. That weird on the power usage, I don't know what could account for that other than possible throttling. Is your hashrate stable and consistent?

Yes, the hashrate is really steady. The miner reports zero stales. The power once it stabilizes is also steady. I did see the memory temps getting up around 92C, so I turned the fan speed up to 35% and it's now steady at 88C. I think you're right that it's memory-related. When I push it up to 1865MHz it's steady and everything seems stable, but I think the temps would spike at some point and that would cause the driver crash. I have it set to 1855MHz/750mv/1250MHz right now.

EDIT: Stable now for almost 24hrs: 84C mem/0.547 MH/s/W, zero stale...must have been the memory temp.

 

[aleader]

I am seriously considering just selling my 5700XT (same card) instead of mining. I mean, really!?


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Are people expecting the crypto prices to get even higher or something? Isn't it inevitable that these prices will soon crash?

 

[thilanliyan]

What operating system are you guys using for your mining rigs? I'm currently using Windows but wondering if I am leaving performance on the table by not using something based of Linux.

HiveOS is simple and stable. But not suitable for a day to day machine I think.

 

[blckgrffn]

I am seriously considering just selling my 5700XT (same card) instead of mining. I mean, really!?


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Are people expecting the crypto prices to get even higher or something? Isn't it inevitable that these prices will soon crash?

Haha, well...

I think that the common way to look at this is that Ethereum changing it's model soonish (next year or something? I don't claim to keep 100% up on this) means that if you want to extract longterm value the best bet is to mine, sell that and hold BTC.

Buuuuut... here in the US you need to pay short term capital gains when you sell your crypto (inside of two years of acquisition, I think, then long term gains. Since the exchanges all use KYC now there is a solid chance that if you don't report it the IRS is just going to get that data from the exchanges and cross reference that with tax returns (IMO). So then you need to claim the gains and with a basis of zero they are essentially taking 40% of mining returns in cash you don't actually have because you used it to buy BTC. Or something like this. This is a gotcha for the GME folks too who used naked (non tax advantaged) brokerage accounts to pump shorted stocks.

I am still considering mining, but it was way easier when you could just commit to HODL4LIFE

 

[aleader]

Haha, well...

I think that the common way to look at this is that Ethereum changing it's model soonish (next year or something? I don't claim to keep 100% up on this) means that if you want to extract longterm value the best bet is to mine, sell that and hold BTC.

Buuuuut... here in the US you need to pay short term capital gains when you sell your crypto (inside of two years of acquisition, I think, then long term gains. Since the exchanges all use KYC now there is a solid chance that if you don't report it the IRS is just going to get that data from the exchanges and cross reference that with tax returns (IMO). So then you need to claim the gains and with a basis of zero they are essentially taking 40% of mining returns in cash you don't actually have because you used it to buy BTC. Or something like this. This is a gotcha for the GME folks too who used naked (non tax advantaged) brokerage accounts to pump shorted stocks.

I am still considering mining, but it was way easier when you could just commit to HODL4LIFE

I did look into the tax implications here in Canada. From what I gather, you only pay the capital gain (at 50%) when you sell or use the coin to buy something. In a normal capital gain you could consider the hardware costs to offset the capital gain (you'd only pay 50% of the difference between the cost and sale), but I think you need to be registered as a mining 'business' to do that.

I don't know how interested CRA would be with such small transactions, but you never know. They let billionaires get away without paying any tax, but if we cash out $80 of bitcoin, look out! From their site:

This refers to the way you get rid of something, such as by giving, selling or transferring it. In general, possessing or holding a cryptocurrency is not taxable. But there could be tax consequences when you do any of the following:

• sell or make a gift of cryptocurrency
• trade or exchange cryptocurrency, including disposing of one cryptocurrency to get another cryptocurrency
• convert cryptocurrency to government-issued currency, such as Canadian dollars
• use cryptocurrency to buy goods or services

Capital gains by definition take expenses and depreciation into account (i.e. power and PC equipment, wear and tear on components, sale of said components), and only apply when you dispose of the asset. I'd really not want to have to pay an accountant to figure this out. By that definition though I say you'd be ok holding Bitcoin, but at some point you'd still have to pay the tax.

It does go on to say this however:

Some examples of cryptocurrency businesses are:

• cryptocurrency mining
• cryptocurrency trading
• cryptocurrency exchanges, including ATMs

Does that mean joe-blow mining in his basement? If I'm going to lose 50% of the profit to taxes, it's a no-brainer and I'd best sell the 5700XT while I can still get stupid money for it. On the other hand, you have to think there is still some significant profit involved here or these guys wouldn't be building these mining farms (even someone with a home farm of 5 or 6 GPUs)?

 

[MrTeal]

I did look into the tax implications here in Canada. From what I gather, you only pay the capital gain (at 50%) when you sell or use the coin to buy something. In a normal capital gain you could consider the hardware costs to offset the capital gain (you'd only pay 50% of the difference between the cost and sale), but I think you need to be registered as a mining 'business' to do that.

I don't know how interested CRA would be with such small transactions, but you never know. They let billionaires get away without paying any tax, but if we cash out $80 of bitcoin, look out! From their site:

This refers to the way you get rid of something, such as by giving, selling or transferring it. In general, possessing or holding a cryptocurrency is not taxable. But there could be tax consequences when you do any of the following:

• sell or make a gift of cryptocurrency
• trade or exchange cryptocurrency, including disposing of one cryptocurrency to get another cryptocurrency
• convert cryptocurrency to government-issued currency, such as Canadian dollars
• use cryptocurrency to buy goods or services

Capital gains by definition take expenses and depreciation into account (i.e. power and PC equipment, wear and tear on components, sale of said components), and only apply when you dispose of the asset. I'd really not want to have to pay an accountant to figure this out. By that definition though I say you'd be ok holding Bitcoin, but at some point you'd still have to pay the tax.

It does go on to say this however:

Some examples of cryptocurrency businesses are:

• cryptocurrency mining
• cryptocurrency trading
• cryptocurrency exchanges, including ATMs

Does that mean joe-blow mining in his basement? If I'm going to lose 50% of the profit to taxes, it's a no-brainer and I'd best sell the 5700XT while I can still get stupid money for it. On the other hand, you have to think there is still some significant profit involved here or these guys wouldn't be building these mining farms (even someone with a home farm of 5 or 6 GPUs)?

You pay taxes on the crypto you earn as you earn it, with the value at the time. The easiest way to do that is just to track your daily mining earnings (in BTC, Eth, whatever) and the daily average price of that crypto in CAD. That would be considered income and taxed at your marginal rate. If you later sell that crypto and the price relative to CAD has changed, that would be a capital gain or loss.

For example, if in February 2021 you mine 0.5 Eth and the average price is CAD$2000, you would report income of CAD$1000 and pay taxes at your marginal tax rate on it. If in March 2022 the price of Eth has risen to CAD$5000 and you sell it, you will realize a capital gain of $1500 and report it in the tax year you dispose of it, and pay tax at 50% of your marginal tax rate.

You need to hold it for a year to be taxed at only 50% of marginal rate, otherwise AFAIK you'd pay your marginal rate.

 

[aleader]

You pay taxes on the crypto you earn as you earn it, with the value at the time. The easiest way to do that is just to track your daily mining earnings (in BTC, Eth, whatever) and the daily average price of that crypto in CAD. That would be considered income and taxed at your marginal rate. If you later sell that crypto and the price relative to CAD has changed, that would be a capital gain or loss.

For example, if in February 2021 you mine 0.5 Eth and the average price is CAD$2000, you would report income of CAD$1000 and pay taxes at your marginal tax rate on it. If in March 2022 the price of Eth has risen to CAD$5000 and you sell it, you will realize a capital gain of $1500 and report it in the tax year you dispose of it, and pay tax at 50% of your marginal tax rate.

You need to hold it for a year to be taxed at only 50% of marginal rate, otherwise AFAIK you'd pay your marginal rate.

Great description, thanks. Yikes, I have to track this stuff daily? So basically if I mine ETH, sell say $100 worth a month later on Shakepay (and pay fees to them too), I'd get nailed for my normal income tax rate. You can't write off any of the expenses?

 

[blckgrffn]

You pay taxes on the crypto you earn as you earn it, with the value at the time. The easiest way to do that is just to track your daily mining earnings (in BTC, Eth, whatever) and the daily average price of that crypto in CAD. That would be considered income and taxed at your marginal rate. If you later sell that crypto and the price relative to CAD has changed, that would be a capital gain or loss.

For example, if in February 2021 you mine 0.5 Eth and the average price is CAD$2000, you would report income of CAD$1000 and pay taxes at your marginal tax rate on it. If in March 2022 the price of Eth has risen to CAD$5000 and you sell it, you will realize a capital gain of $1500 and report it in the tax year you dispose of it, and pay tax at 50% of your marginal tax rate.

You need to hold it for a year to be taxed at only 50% of marginal rate, otherwise AFAIK you'd pay your marginal rate.

Really? I hadn’t thought of it like that but I suppose that makes sense. I had understood that it was like buying a stock and you paid based on a acquisition basis of $0 but I suppose it does have value and is being sent to you... so, yeah. Gross. My taxes are complicated enough I am staying away from this for now. Thanks for reaffirming that decision!

 

[aleader]

Really? I hadn’t thought of it like that but I suppose that makes sense. I had understood that it was like buying a stock and you paid based on a acquisition basis of $0 but I suppose it does have value and is being sent to you... so, yeah. Gross. My taxes are complicated enough I am staying away from this for now. Thanks for reaffirming that decision!

I think so long as you just keep selling it as you transfer a balance to your wallet (i.e. 0.05 ETH with Ethermine) it should be pretty simple...you just treat that as income. Expenses have to be a factor though or they can bite me. I'm curious to see what the actual profit is when all is said and done after fees/expenses and taxes. I'll know more when I actually get to a point of having something in my wallet

 

[blckgrffn]

I think so long as you just keep selling it as you transfer a balance to your wallet (i.e. 0.05 ETH with Ethermine) it should be pretty simple...you just treat that as income. Expenses have to be a factor though or they can bite me. I'm curious to see what the actual profit is when all is said and done after fees/expenses and taxes. I'll know more when I actually get to a point of having something in my wallet

Simple yeah, but worth anything? If you pay taxes when you receive and taxes when you sell it, what does that leave you with? 30% of the actual mining results? Bleh. (I see the flaw in this now - if you sell it for what you paid for it, there is no additional income. But if you sell it monthly, it's not uncommon to see double digit swings in value so there could be additional income/loss that occurs if you are really "cashing out")

Reminds me when I did some adjunct work in addition to my normal job. I loved it, but the pay was completely union negotiated and they can never get tech people in to teach the tech classes. I thought the pay was pretty OK, especially as I picked up enough classes to go from per credit to a part time salary.

I know how taxes work, generally speaking. This still was a shocker to me.

I didn't realize that (and this is common sense in retrospect) they weren't withholding enough at the schools where I was teaching, as they were only withholding as if I had only that income. Same for my main job, but I was already tweaking dependents and stuff there. So I made lets say an extra $12k (after "taxes") in the year for teaching two nights a week for a handful of months. Not bad, right?

What was bad was when they came for $5k in taxes in April because I miscalculated. And there was penalties because of how short I was. And I know had to file the next years taxes quarterly (got that removed, as I remember now, somehow) because I had shown how ill equipped I was at paying my payroll taxes (I maintain this is something the HR department who hired adjuncts might have wanted to mention since they were headhunting people with jobs.)

All of a sudden I realized that I was getting ~60% of the advertised pay (I know, no surprise had I rubbed some brain cells together) and I realized why they can never get adjuncts in the industry to teach because they can't adjust their pay to be worth it when you pay taxes along side other income.

Anyway, I am much more leery of the tax implications of new income sources now.

About expenses - if you are already claiming your home office (electricity and sq footage and all that) and internet as unreimbursed expenses on your taxes, double claiming them might start getting dicey. If you aren't already claiming them, why not? American tax law here though

 

[Hitman928]

Simple yeah, but worth anything? If you pay taxes when you receive and taxes when you sell it, what does that leave you with? 30% of the actual mining results? Bleh.

Reminds me when I did some adjunct work in addition to my normal job. I loved it, but the pay was completely union negotiated and they can never get tech people in to teach the tech classes. I thought the pay was pretty OK, especially as I picked up enough classes to go from per credit to a part time salary.

I know how taxes work, generally speaking. This still was a shocker to me.

I didn't realize that (and this is common sense in retrospect) they weren't withholding enough at the schools where I was teaching, as they were only withholding as if I had only that income. Same for my main job, but I was already tweaking dependents and stuff there. So I made lets say an extra $12k (after "taxes") in the year for teaching two nights a week for a handful of months. Not bad, right?

What was bad was when they came for $5k in taxes in April because I miscalculated. And there was penalties because of how short I was. And I know had to file the next years taxes quarterly (got that removed, as I remember now, somehow) because I had shown how ill equipped I was at paying my payroll taxes (I maintain this is something the HR department who hired adjuncts might have wanted to mention since they were headhunting people with jobs.)

All of a sudden I realized that I was getting ~60% of the advertised pay (I know, no surprise had I rubbed some brain cells together) and I realized why they can never get adjuncts in the industry to teach because they can't adjust their pay to be worth it when you pay taxes along side other income.

Anyway, I am much more leery of the tax implications of new income sources now.

About expenses - if you are already claiming your home office (electricity and sq footage and all that) and internet as unreimbursed expenses on your taxes, double claiming them might start getting dicey. If you aren't already claiming them, why not? American tax law here though

I'm not a tax professional by any means, but if I understand it correctly, you wouldn't have to pay tax on the crypto twice. You would owe tax on the mined crypto at the time of transfer to your wallet (this is actually a bit fuzzy here because the law is not really written with mining pools in mind, but for the sake of this argument, let's go with it), then if you converted that crypto to USD, you would only owe additional taxes if the value of the crypto has increased since it was transferred to your wallet. I.e. at the time of conversion, you would only owe additional taxes on any increase seen.

Of course, keeping track of all this when you have a constant flow of transfers into your wallet is difficult to say the least. There are some apps that claim to keep track of it all for you, but I don't know how trustworthy they are (and last I looked, they weren't free either). I believe all mining income is seen as short term gains as well, so you are paying your highest tier income tax on that mining income.

Again, not a tax pro, just how I understand it.

 

[aleader]

I'm not sure how it works in the US, but from what I posted above directly from the CRA website, you wouldn't pay any tax until you converted the Crypto and/or sold it. Putting it into a wallet is not taxable, neither is holding it...in Canada at least.

I normally work in an office, so would have no reason to write off my home as a business expense, although I have now been working from home since March, so will be able to for the 2020 tax year for sure. I'm talking more about the expenses of PC equipment and power cost of the mining.

I just did a quick calculation based on my estimated earning for a month as of right now (on the Ethermine pool). I will make approximately $208 CAD ($158 USD) for the month (with my 5700XT) at the current price. Subtract about $23CAD/mth for power and depreciation of equipment (I factored $0.10/day for wear and tear).

That number may even be a little high as my system seems to get more power efficient the longer it runs for some reason. It was about 190W at the wall, and has now settled to about 178W after several days.

So $185 x .30 (high end of marginal tax rate) = $55. $185 - $55 = $130/mth that I'm still making off of 1 GPU. I paid $550 CAD for that GPU w/tax, so about 4.25 months to pay for it. This is how I'm looking at it. Too simplistic?

Obviously the price of ETH is the driving factor here, and there is a price where I would say it isn't worth it anymore. You'd need a lot of cards to make any significant money at it when the price is low. This is of course assuming people actually claim it on their taxes

Anyone care to speculate on where the price will be in 6 months??

 

[MrTeal]

For mining, see further down in that CRA guidance. They've actually updated it a bit since I last dabbled, which is good.

Earning cryptocurrencies through mining
Cryptocurrencies are commonly acquired in two ways:

• bought through a cryptocurrency exchange
• earned through mining

Mining involves using specialized computers to solve complicated mathematical problems which confirm cryptocurrency transactions. Miners will include cryptocurrency transactions into blocks, and try to guess a number that will create a valid block. A valid block is accepted by the corresponding cryptocurrency’s network and becomes part of a public ledger, known as a blockchain. When a miner successfully creates a valid block, they will receive two payments in a single payment amount. One payment represents the creation of new cryptocurrency on the network and the other payment represents the fees from transactions included in the newly validated block. Those who perform the mining processes are paid in the cryptocurrency that they are validating.
The income tax treatment for cryptocurrency miners is different depending on whether their mining activities are a personal activity (a hobby) or a business activity. This is decided case by case. A hobby is generally undertaken for pleasure, entertainment or enjoyment, rather than for business reasons. But if a hobby is pursued in a sufficiently commercial and businesslike way, it can be considered a business activity and will be taxed as such.

Re: the taxing twice, you wouldn't be. They're strictly separate things, and it's actually a good thing at least in Canada. The reason for that is if you mine $1000 worth of coin, but go to sell it a couple years later and it's worth $10000, $9000 of that is capital gains and you only pay tax at half your marginal rate.

What constitutes a hobby vs a mining operation, outside my pay grade. While I never incorporated a mining business, when I was cashing out of crypto the wires into my bank were over the $10,000 limit that gets the transaction sent to the CRA, and I just reported everything as income and capital gains because I definitely did not want to be a test case for a crypto audit. If you're playing around with single 5700XT and earning a cup of Tim's and a donut every week, I'd say that's pretty hobby like.

 

[blckgrffn]

For mining, see further down in that CRA guidance. They've actually updated it a bit since I last dabbled, which is good.


Re: the taxing twice, you wouldn't be. They're strictly separate things, and it's actually a good thing at least in Canada. The reason for that is if you mine $1000 worth of coin, but go to sell it a couple years later and it's worth $10000, $9000 of that is capital gains and you only pay tax at half your marginal rate.

What constitutes a hobby vs a mining operation, outside my pay grade. While I never incorporated a mining business, when I was cashing out of crypto the wires into my bank were over the $10,000 limit that gets the transaction sent to the CRA, and I just reported everything as income and capital gains because I definitely did not want to be a test case for a crypto audit. If you're playing around with single 5700XT and earning a cup of Tim's and a donut every week, I'd say that's pretty hobby like.

Nice - I like the "case by case" stipulation thrown in there. Sounds like, maybe depending on your audit is going, maybe it could be seen one way, maybe the other... ha.

One of the major upsides of mining is that you own crypto which may, depending on the value of fiat currencies, be a major factor in the future years to come. Or maybe like gold it will become a store of value that somewhat adjusts for inflation, which "cash" is not.

That said, you can capture the upside by just buying it outright. The problem with paying taxes on acquisition is you have to have the liquidity to do so (at least annually) and so either you are investing cash to pay the taxes or your liquidating some of your crypto (hopefully making money on the hold til tax time) which is supposed to be a long term store of value, right? For my $.02 it's more straightforward just to buy crypto on the markets and if the long term gains are what you're looking for you can at least take your power and hardware acquisition costs and do some dollar cost averaging purchases.

If you are mining to pay for the card you just bought, I guess that is a non-issue but is missing the larger picture on crypto, imo.

I wish my crystal ball worked @aleader the advice I get from those invested in this stuff is to consolidate to BTC if you are going to hold (like for six months or until you move to long term gains). ETH has some tech stuff coming up that might be disruptive.

@Hitman928 & @MrTeal I appreciate you taking the time to drop your knowledge on this thread. Thank you.

 

[aleader]

For mining, see further down in that CRA guidance. They've actually updated it a bit since I last dabbled, which is good.

Re: the taxing twice, you wouldn't be. They're strictly separate things, and it's actually a good thing at least in Canada. The reason for that is if you mine $1000 worth of coin, but go to sell it a couple years later and it's worth $10000, $9000 of that is capital gains and you only pay tax at half your marginal rate.

What constitutes a hobby vs a mining operation, outside my pay grade. While I never incorporated a mining business, when I was cashing out of crypto the wires into my bank were over the $10,000 limit that gets the transaction sent to the CRA, and I just reported everything as income and capital gains because I definitely did not want to be a test case for a crypto audit. If you're playing around with single 5700XT and earning a cup of Tim's and a donut every week, I'd say that's pretty hobby like.

I didn't see that part, thanks. I did read all of the 'limits' on Shakepay, and I'd be doing transactions in the $100 range, so I'd say definitely a hobby...or a business if that benefits me somehow I think I read somewhere that CRA was only looking at those bigger transactions to rule out money laundering I suppose, but did randomly pick 60 people for an audit. It wasn't clear what the transactions for those 60 people were, and this was on reddit, so I take it with a grain of salt.

May I ask what you used for cashing out in Canada? I've considered Shakepay and Newton. I really don't like all the information they want to take from me, but I don't see any other way to cash it out. I believe Newton requires a picture and photo ID as well.

 

[aleader]

If you are mining to pay for the card you just bought, I guess that is a non-issue but is missing the larger picture on crypto, imo.

I wish my crystal ball worked @aleader the advice I get from those invested in this stuff is to consolidate to BTC if you are going to hold (like for six months or until you move to long term gains). ETH has some tech stuff coming up that might be disruptive.

@Hitman928 & @MrTeal I appreciate you taking the time to drop your knowledge on this thread. Thank you.

The TWO cards I just bought actually. I'd like to pay for the 3070 too . I just want to get enough to pay those off, and then I likely will just hold on to it. I want to be sure to cash out as much as possible while the price is so high. After that, whatever.

 

[blckgrffn]

I mean at a few hundy per month it is certainly seemingly very viable.

I just have nightmares about finding my rigs not mining because of ddos attacks on pools and all that I just don't want to commit again. Your calm deliberation and moving forward isn't helping me validate my decision to let my 5700xt rest!

 

[MrTeal]

The TWO cards I just bought actually. I'd like to pay for the 3070 too . I just want to get enough to pay those off, and then I likely will just hold on to it. I want to be sure to cash out as much as possible while the price is so high. After that, whatever.

I just sold on Bitstamp and sent a bank wire to myself. I'd never really tried to pull $100 or less out of crypto before TBH.

 

[blckgrffn]

Seriously, my 5700xt could be worth $700? What insanity is this? How can I keep it? Mind blown.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Seriously, my 5700xt could be worth $700? What insanity is this? How can I keep it? Mind blown.

That's right, sell it to meeeeee.

 

[aleader]

Seriously, my 5700xt could be worth $700? What insanity is this? How can I keep it? Mind blown.

If so many want to buy it...you should probably keep it (sorry Larry) That's the decision I came to...

 

[aleader]

I just sold on Bitstamp and sent a bank wire to myself. I'd never really tried to pull $100 or less out of crypto before TBH.

Yet another exchange I didn't know existed. Looks promising. What separates it from the others? Fees?

 

[aleader]

Is anyone here using HiveOS? I was going to use it instead of Windows for my spare PC (where I'm moving the 5700XT to), but I get mixed messages from people regarding using a USB. Some say it's fine (booting HiveOS from a USB), others say it's the worst thing you can ever do and your children will be eaten slowly by wolves... I guess I can try both. I have already put Windows onto the spare SSD I'm using.