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Ethereum GPU mining?

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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,118
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Oh, okay. Good. Hopefully they'll give us some info on PoS too!

Though honestly I don't mind ETH being down like it is, since it makes it easier to buy it with ZEC.
 

lienad216

Member
Sep 10, 2016
37
5
11
Wasn't that hard fork implemented already? I seem to recall seeing a banner to that effect when I looked at one of the block explorer sites last month. Can't quite remember though.

If buying an RX480, is it better to have Hynix or Elpida branded memory? I heard Samsung was the best, but barring that, which is better for ETH?
 

Feld

Senior member
Aug 6, 2015
287
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Wasn't that hard fork implemented already? I seem to recall seeing a banner to that effect when I looked at one of the block explorer sites last month. Can't quite remember though.

If buying an RX480, is it better to have Hynix or Elpida branded memory? I heard Samsung was the best, but barring that, which is better for ETH?
The first fork happened weeks ago but that was always planned to be the first of two that would address the issues. The first fork patched the things that were more urgent and easily fixed, while the second is patching things that aren't nearly as critical but are more complicated to fix. So they're taking their time on the second fork, making sure it all gets done right and they haven't missed anything.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Looks like ETH is taking a dump today, down to $9.60 or so and falling. Might make mining even less attractive than ever. But hey, it'll be easier to buy in for PoS right?
 
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lienad216

Member
Sep 10, 2016
37
5
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How does PoS work though? From the little I read, it sounds like everyone just gets a share of the mined coin based on how much they have over the total supply. Which seems weird... I doubt its correct, but I'm not sure how else to interpret it.
 

Madpacket

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2005
2,068
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How does PoS work though? From the little I read, it sounds like everyone just gets a share of the mined coin based on how much they have over the total supply. Which seems weird... I doubt its correct, but I'm not sure how else to interpret it.
AFAIK the core PoS devs (Vitalek .B and Vlad .Z) haven't fully decided the direction. You have the right idea though of how it it works conceptually. The fundamental idea is simple but pulling it off will likely be very difficult. I suspect PoW will be around for quite a bit longer than everyone anticipated.

Ethereum just successfully hard forked again so hopefully they did enough work to keep the hackers at bay for a while. Security has been the biggest challenge for Ethereum but the developers are relentless in addressing issues and moving forward.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,077
1,458
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Yeah, but would you still have to "mine" in a pool to get the "dividends"? And if so how is this different from PoW?

If you don't have to mine to keep getting dividends, then what would be the formula for determining the PoS payout? Is it going to be a flat percentage? As in say 0.03% payout per year?
 

Madpacket

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2005
2,068
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Yeah, but would you still have to "mine" in a pool to get the "dividends"? And if so how is this different from PoW?

If you don't have to mine to keep getting dividends, then what would be the formula for determining the PoS payout? Is it going to be a flat percentage? As in say 0.03% payout per year?
The formula as I understand it would be a small percentage of the total stake pool (we'll be buying into bigger stake pools) pays a dividend when your stake pool validates part or all of a transaction. The number of different stake pools, how large they can be, and how the transactions are divided among said pools is going to determine how things pan out.

PoW mining is an extremely resource intense and wasteful way to ensure transaction validation and transactions that can't be manipulated. It's quite possible the Ethereum PoS implementation will use a hybrid approach at first and drop PoW once PoS is properly implemented. However PoW has a proven (Bitcoin has mostly worked without major issues since January 2009) track record.

PoS opens up a bunch of new attack vectors but the idea is people won't mess with transaction validation if they have a vested interest, and being part owner of a pool that pays dividends (theoretically) ensures this will take place. However checks and balances will be put in place to ensure (trust but verify) this stays so.

The reason we need something like PoS is for faster transactions, better scalability etc. This all leads to decentralized computing that can perform many thousands of transactions per second. We're nowhere near that speed currently.
 

Feld

Senior member
Aug 6, 2015
287
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Yeah, but would you still have to "mine" in a pool to get the "dividends"? And if so how is this different from PoW?

If you don't have to mine to keep getting dividends, then what would be the formula for determining the PoS payout? Is it going to be a flat percentage? As in say 0.03% payout per year?
My understanding is that in order to "mine" under proof of stake, you have to designate some amount of your ether as being at stake. There will be a minimum amount required, and that amount hasn't been fully determined yet (and the minimum is also likely to decrease over time from the amount required when POS initially launches). Staked ether is locked so it cannot be transferred, sold, used as gas, etc., for some period of time. Of all the people staking ether, some relatively small number of them will be randomly chosen to serve as validators for a given block. The more ether you have at stake, the more likely it is you will be chosen as a validator for a given block. If the results of your validation match the results of the other chosen validators, you are issued some amount of ether as a reward. If your results do not match, you lose some portion of the ether you have at stake. This way, in order to have any significant effect on the network validation process, you have to have a significant financial commitment to the positive health of the network by owning and locking up a bunch of ether, and you will be financially punished for any disruptive behavior.

Staking pools will probably exist, but it may not make as much sense to use them as it does POW pools. This is because you would likely have to actually send your ether stake to the pool who would then control it, and you would have to just trust them not to steal it. But as long as you can make the minimum staking amount, there should be no long term benefit to participating in a staking pool anyway.

Staking is intended to be a long term commitment, for people committing to >90% availability of the staking computer. Early expectations are for something like an 8% annual rate of return. But bear in mind, this does not mean there will be an 8% inflation rate. Only staked ether with validators who behave themselves will see a return, and between people who don't meet the staking minimum and those wanting to have their ether liquid to sell, transfer, or use as transaction fees, it's likely that less than half of all ether will be staked at any given time.

Of course all that is subject to change, but that is my general understanding at this time.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,118
6,126
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Feld, the only reason I can see to go with a staking pool is to spread out risk. If the penalty for failure to meet consensus on a block is small enough, then "solo staking" will not be so bad. I am unsure of how one chooses to validate or not validate a particular block though.

I would like for them to begin PoS sooner than later, provided they don't screw up something like they did with the latest geth release (oops).
 

Feld

Senior member
Aug 6, 2015
287
95
101
Feld, the only reason I can see to go with a staking pool is to spread out risk. If the penalty for failure to meet consensus on a block is small enough, then "solo staking" will not be so bad. I am unsure of how one chooses to validate or not validate a particular block though.

I would like for them to begin PoS sooner than later, provided they don't screw up something like they did with the latest geth release (oops).
It's possible the penalty will be a set percentage of your stake rather than a flat amount, in which case a staking pool wouldn't spread the risk at all. If that's the case, the only two reasons I can see to use a staking pool would be if you cannot have a computer online nearly all the time to be available as a validator, or if you do not have enough ether to meet the minimum staking requirement on your own but still want to stake something. In either case, you're probably a small enough fish that you wouldn't end up making much by staking anyway even if you found a pool that was trustworthy enough to let them control your ether.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,118
6,126
136
That's possible. It would be nice to know how much ETH you need to stake solo, regardless.

Also I wonder what happens if you do stake solo but your host location loses power, bringing down your validating computer?
 

vissarix

Senior member
Jun 12, 2015
286
91
101
Is it worth it to go over all these difficulties over best case scenario $100 worth a month? I mean i were living in south sudan or something i would consider that, but in the west? How about finding a real job and stop wasting time with this non sense?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2015
8,467
4,441
146
Is it worth it to go over all these difficulties over best case scenario $100 worth a month? I mean i were living in south sudan or something i would consider that, but in the west? How about finding a real job and stop wasting time with this non sense?
I imagine most people participating in this do have a real job. And just because it looks complicated doesn't mean it is. I set up bitcoin mining with basically 0 knowledge in an afternoon yesterday, and now I'm expecting a (very roughly) extra $30 a month for doing absolutely nothing but leaving my computer on (which it already would be). Helps recoup the cost of the video card I just bought for gaming, and over time will just be a profit center.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,613
315
126
Is it worth it to go over all these difficulties over best case scenario $100 worth a month? I mean i were living in south sudan or something i would consider that, but in the west? How about finding a real job and stop wasting time with this non sense?
This is more a hobby than a job.

Personally I have had a blast building computers for mining, working out the software, and collecting GPUs. If it wasn't for ETH I would still build other computers for the fun of it (at one point I had a dozen HTPCs for four tvs). With mining I might get something out of it.
 

lienad216

Member
Sep 10, 2016
37
5
11
This is more a hobby than a job.

Personally I have had a blast building computers for mining, working out the software, and collecting GPUs. If it wasn't for ETH I would still build other computers for the fun of it (at one point I had a dozen HTPCs for four tvs). With mining I might get something out of it.
Also if you're a student... a job isn't really that practical (if your studies take up a lot of your time).

But yeah, a hobby, not a job. I suppose there are people whose farms are of such scale that they can simply live off the earnings, but I suspect most of us aren't anywhere near that scale (except maybe Madpacket)
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,011
3,801
136
Tempted to buy a boatload of ETH, but I'm not convinced it's done falling just yet.
 

Madpacket

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2005
2,068
326
126
Yeah what's with the downturn?
Best I can tell is the hard-fork corrections slowing the network work down until it fully clears/corrects (which should be within 3 days). At least that's what /r/ethereum folks are saying.

There also appears to be manipulation on Poloniex (large sell walls?) to drive the price down. I'm not a trader though so I won't pretend to understand this other than it supposedly negatively affects the price on purpose so "weak hands" get out by selling whatever Ether they have and the wales buy it up.

Ethereum still has great fundamentals (just look at this recent piece on Sharding, https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Sharding-FAQ) but ever since the DAO hack and the ongoing attacks, work has been tied up fixing security issues. This is likely the real reason for the continued price drop. There's plenty of good news but it's being overshadowed by the ongoing security/bugs being addressed.

What many people forget is to have this flexibility we have to pay for it other ways (security, longer development times). Bitcoin has been solid because it's very limited in capability outside of financial applications.

No changes, no new security vectors to attack.

This is why I'm a long on Ethereum, but it'll take years to mature as ambitions are high. Developing a Turing complete scalable distributed world computer takes a lot work.
 

Madpacket

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2005
2,068
326
126
Tempted to buy a boatload of ETH, but I'm not convinced it's done falling just yet.
It'll probably keep falling slowly until the back log is cleared out and syncing the blockchain is back to normal. I think I'm going to put in a few buy orders soon :D
 
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