[ET] Google throws nearly a billion Android users under the bus - refuses to patch

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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
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6,820
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In my opinion Google has already addressed this issue with Google Play Services (which can delivery security patches without carrier/manufacture updates) and separating many apps from the core OS (Chrome, YouTube, Maps, Music, etc).

The point is that there are some things Google Play Services and separated apps can't patch. It helps, but it's not a cure-all.

No, it's not accurate to say that Google is purposefully abandoning older Android users. However, you're running into a flaw inherent to Android itself: when you give up control of your platform to OEMs and carriers, you give up control over security. If you want timely security updates over the typical lifespan of a device (2-3 years), your only good choice is Apple's iOS. Even Windows Phone may make you wait weeks or months to get a fix.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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The point is that there are some things Google Play Services and separated apps can't patch.

Not in Jellybean, no. But in Lollipop going forward Play can update almost any app, including the one in question. It is a complete fix that users will get with their next device.

No, it's not accurate to say that Google is purposefully abandoning older Android users.

Is it Google abandoning them or the OEMs? They didn't buy the product from Google. It is the fault of the OEM, unless it is a Nexus device and then it has access to an update.

If you want timely security updates over the typical lifespan of a device (2-3 years), your only good choice is Apple's iOS.

Or a Nexus-branded device. Just like the last two years. Android is successful because 99% don't care what OS they are running.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
3,656
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Sounds like OP needs to dial down the hyperbole and take a step back and actually observe the situation, as opposed to just twisting the stick out of some kind of predetermined rage.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
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As others have pointed out, Google has already patched this in Android 4.4+.

Now, if device manufacturers and carriers don't want to bother validating and pushing newer versions of Android that include these security fixes out to their customers, that's on the manufacturers and carriers, not on Google.
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
40
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As others have pointed out, Google has already patched this in Android 4.4+.

Now, if device manufacturers and carriers don't want to bother validating and pushing newer versions of Android that include these security fixes out to their customers, that's on the manufacturers and carriers, not on Google.
there is cure for AIDS. It costs 10 million dollars.

Now, if you are HIV+ and don't want bother with earning $10M, it is up to you...
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
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How is Google supposed to force manufacturers and carriers to update their users phones to the latest Android?
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
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This is an issue, but the issue is with low end or old hardware. As I've told people many times over, don't buy junk Android equipment, because there are way too many issues, and lack of OS updates is one of them.

Buy a Nexus, or from a company that is fairly good at updating their OS version for its products.
 

jacktesterson

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
5,493
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not a big deal imo, most people get a new phone every year anyway

This is very wrong.

Maybe on here (Tech enthusiasts), but not the general public who buy 2-3 year contracts.

Either way, even if Google patched it, most carriers (for older devices) that run 4.1-4.3 would never upgrade it anyways.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
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AT&T's not going to patch security flaws in older devices, but they'll damn sure shit out a patch that fixes a vuln that leads to root on newer phones.

F'holes.
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
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It will take one good mass hack followed by a class action against Google, AT&T, Verizon, etc. and they will learn the lesson.

We accept their terms of service, yet they think they have zero liability if you get hacked on their network using their devices within the TOS.

It is ridiculous that people defend Google for this. Google made it almost technically impossible to keep devices up to date. Sounds like a seriously bad design to me.

This is like Windows XP before SP2 all over again. At least Microsoft let everybody patch the system.

I still have my phone from 2012 that is running ICS, 4.0.3, now WiFi device only for kid to play. I don't see why it needs to be thrown in trash when it still works OK
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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It is ridiculous that people defend Google for this. Google made it almost technically impossible to keep devices up to date. Sounds like a seriously bad design to me.

They would agree. This issue can't happen three years out with Lollipop. They fixed the design problem.

I still have my phone from 2012 that is running ICS, 4.0.3, now WiFi device only for kid to play. I don't see why it needs to be thrown in trash when it still works OK

Just use a different browser. It is an easy fix, no need to trash it.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
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A fairly timely article on the subject:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015...gle-play-edition-program-it-was-already-dead/

Mostly the middle part. It's true that Google has broken out a lot of content that it can update independently, but it's not entirely correct to say that the company has forever solved the problems with feature updates. If there's a security flaw in, say, the dialer or the app framework, that will forever remain vulnerable if your carrier/OEM has denied you an update.

And yes, the Nexus lineup lets you get around the problems of poor support, but isn't that just a tacit admission that Apple's model -- that is, controlling both the hardware and software -- is superior for maintaining a timely, sustained update schedule?

It's true that most people don't normally need to care, but I don't think it's okay that you should be punished for choosing the "wrong" Android phone by suffering through a shortened, delay-filled update cycle. Imagine if Honda refused to service its entry-level cars for more than a year, under warranty or otherwise. You'd be outraged, wouldn't you -- why should you be forced to pay for a much more expensive product to get the treatment that everyone deserves?
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
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And yes, the Nexus lineup lets you get around the problems of poor support, but isn't that just a tacit admission that Apple's model -- that is, controlling both the hardware and software -- is superior for maintaining a timely, sustained update schedule?

In the case of rolling out updates, yes the Apple model is better.

However, it is a completely moot point isn't it? Apple and Google are two completely different types of companies. Apple is primarily a hardware company, Google is primarily a software company. Android is open source while iOS is completely closed. What works for Apple cannot work for Google the way things are now.

The only solution would be for Google to close source Android (if that is even possible) and either stop every other manufacturer from selling Android phones or require them to provide Google's OS without their modifications. Then Google would have to get the carriers to agree to sell those products. The carriers love the way Android is now. They can add all the crap they want AND control the update schedules.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
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A fairly timely article on the subject:

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015...gle-play-edition-program-it-was-already-dead/

Mostly the middle part. It's true that Google has broken out a lot of content that it can update independently, but it's not entirely correct to say that the company has forever solved the problems with feature updates. If there's a security flaw in, say, the dialer or the app framework, that will forever remain vulnerable if your carrier/OEM has denied you an update.

As of Lollipop a lot of that stuff (like web frameworks) goes through the Play Store too. And the Play Store can upgrade itself. Everything essential is covered as of Lollipop.

And yes, the Nexus lineup lets you get around the problems of poor support, but isn't that just a tacit admission that Apple's model -- that is, controlling both the hardware and software -- is superior for maintaining a timely, sustained update schedule?

No, not at all. Apple sells a premium product for the most part. If you compare them to the most comparable option-Samsung- you see Samsung does provide good support. Heck the American S3- a 2012 phone and easily the biggest selling Android that year-has an official update to Kitkat that avoids this vulnerability. Nexus is not the only phones getting updates, just the only ones getting them in some accelerated manor that nerds demand. I think by now every carrier has shipped out that S3 Kitkat update.

It's true that most people don't normally need to care, but I don't think it's okay that you should be punished for choosing the "wrong" Android phone by suffering through a shortened, delay-filled update cycle.

How is that any different than Apple? If you buy an Apple device that is at the same price point at some of these cheap Android tablets it is used devices that are already passed the update cycle like the iPad 1. Comparing what happens what a brand new $500+ Apple device to a $100 tablet is ludicrous.

The real issue that we are seeing is new because of Android: it is exposing a new lower price point for computers never seen before.

Back in the day the OEMs like Dell who sold you a computer had enough resources to update the drives when new OSes came out and generally provide long-term support. Low end Android is produced with such low margins that if the OEM had to invest money received from the purchase back into long term support it wouldn't be profitable. These things are less computers than compute appliances. Luckily the attack vectors are limited because of Google's control of main way people install apps. I don't know of any exploits that actually take advantage of these pre-Kitkat flaws.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
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As of Lollipop a lot of that stuff (like web frameworks) goes through the Play Store too. And the Play Store can upgrade itself. Everything essential is covered as of Lollipop.

Only that article shows that a number of essential things aren't covered. The risk is small, but like I said, it's still there.




No, not at all. Apple sells a premium product for the most part. If you compare them to the most comparable option-Samsung- you see Samsung does provide good support. Heck the American S3- a 2012 phone and easily the biggest selling Android that year-has an official update to Kitkat that avoids this vulnerability. Nexus is not the only phones getting updates, just the only ones getting them in some accelerated manor that nerds demand. I think by now every carrier has shipped out that S3 Kitkat update.

You just supported my argument, actually. The GS3 was a flagship-class device bought by tens of millions of people, so of course Samsung would support it. And how many months did it take after KitKat's release before that update trickled down? I know Samsung started detailing upgrades in February 2014, or a few months after Google made it available.



How is that any different than Apple? If you buy an Apple device that is at the same price point at some of these cheap Android tablets it is used devices that are already passed the update cycle like the iPad 1. Comparing what happens what a brand new $500+ Apple device to a $100 tablet is ludicrous.

The real issue that we are seeing is new because of Android: it is exposing a new lower price point for computers never seen before.

Back in the day the OEMs like Dell who sold you a computer had enough resources to update the drives when new OSes came out and generally provide long-term support. Low end Android is produced with such low margins that if the OEM had to invest money received from the purchase back into long term support it wouldn't be profitable. These things are less computers than compute appliances. Luckily the attack vectors are limited because of Google's control of main way people install apps. I don't know of any exploits that actually take advantage of these pre-Kitkat flaws.

I think you're making a couple of bad connections here.

First, you're implying that Apple wouldn't offer that kind of support if it made lower cost devices. That's speculation at best, and given the company's profit margins, highly unlikely. If a company can't offer decent support because its margins are so low that it'll go bankrupt if the market so much as encounters a hiccup, isn't that a terribly run business?

(For reference, Dell also offers poor support, just in different ways. Ask anyone who's spent an hour waiting to speak to a strictly-on-script person they can barely understand.)

The more important bit: you're implying (if not outright stating) that it's okay for people to face major security flaws simply because their low-end devices are "compute appliances" and not 'full' smartphones. That it's acceptable for, say, a middle-class Chinese person making $7,000 a year to get hacked simply because they don't live in a wealthier country where they'd have a better income and thus a nicer, better-supported phone.

I have a better idea. How about companies operate on better-than-rock-bottom profit margins and pledge longer-term support to their customers, making for happier users who are more likely to buy that company's phones in the future?
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,310
687
126
It is ridiculous that people defend Google for this. Google made it almost technically impossible to keep devices up to date. Sounds like a seriously bad design to me.

This is like Windows XP before SP2 all over again. At least Microsoft let everybody patch the system.

Could you provide with some resources as to the highlighted? I might have been one of the people who you assume to be defending Google, but I can assure you I have no vested interest in all these tech corporations.

Thing is, it is hard to criticize something when I do not know where the culpability begins and ends. The relationship between Google and Android is something that I have yet to grasp.

Likewise I am not sure whether likening Android to Windows (XP or otherwise) is justified in this context.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,820
136
Could you provide with some resources as to the highlighted? I might have been one of the people who you assume to be defending Google, but I can assure you I have no vested interest in all these tech corporations.

Thing is, it is hard to criticize something when I do not know where the culpability begins and ends. The relationship between Google and Android is something that I have yet to grasp.

Likewise I am not sure whether likening Android to Windows (XP or otherwise) is justified in this context.

I can help out here, I think.

There are two main issues: the integration of older designs and the control Google allows for developers. Google has been increasingly breaking out features from the main Android release so that it can update them independently, whether it's through Google Play Services (a framework that encompasses a lot of things) or the Google Play Store for apps. It's a smart move, but the problem is that some of this breaking-out depends on having newer versions of Android, like KitKat and Lollipop. Go back far enough and you may have a device where security fixes aren't feasible simply because you'd have to update the OS itself, not just a single component.

And to a significant extent, it's dictated by Google's philosophy toward Android. By giving a lot of control over the software to carriers and device makers, it also ceded power over updates. If a phone maker decides to abandon updates quickly (which happens a lot) or a carrier decides it doesn't like an upgrade, that's it -- you're never, ever getting that patch (officially, anyway) no matter how much Google would like you to have it. It's a double-edged sword. Google gives freedom that isn't possible on iOS or Windows Phone, but it also guarantees a very inconsistent, frequently inferior update experience for nearly all of the Android ecosystem.
 

KeithP

Diamond Member
Jun 15, 2000
5,664
202
106
As others have pointed out, Google has already patched this in Android 4.4+.

Now, if device manufacturers and carriers don't want to bother validating and pushing newer versions of Android that include these security fixes out to their customers, that's on the manufacturers and carriers, not on Google.

That is my feeling as well.

Is it not true that if Google did develop a patch for Android 4.1-4.3 wouldn't the OEMs then have to incorporate the update into the software for their phones and then get it to the carriers who would then have to test the release and push it out to their customers? The article the OP linked to says as much.

And it seems to me if OEMs were so inclined to do that this wouldn't be a big issue because the majority of phones would already have been upgraded to 4.4 and the problem would be solved.

Google has provided fix, 4.4. If OEMs aren't updating their phones why should Google provide more fixes that OEMs will also ignore?

-KeithP
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
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so what we have here is much ado about nothing. just another website publishing nothing useful and claiming the sky is falling. Of course this webpost was written in january so we are a little late to the overreaction party.