ESRB In the HotSeat

Juice Box

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2003
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SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Shooting. Killing. Vehicular mayhem. Sexual conquests. Teenagers can experience it all through today's almost-anything-goes breed of video games, primarily among those rated "M" for mature.

The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) is responsible for that rating system, and this self-regulating video game industry group has suddenly found itself on the hot seat.

Critics say the board's guidance is toothless and does little to help parents trying to protect impressionable children from questionable content.

"There is no doubting the fact that the widespread availability of sexually explicit and graphically violent video games makes the challenge of parenting much harder," said Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, who asked the Federal Trade Commission last week to investigate one of the most violent titles, "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas."

In this "M" rated game -- last year's top-seller among console games -- the main character seeks bloody vengeance on gang-filled streets, firing automatic weapons and picking up scantily clad women.

But what really riles family-oriented media watchdog groups are additional scenes in which nude "girlfriends" join in explicit sex acts in the PC version. The scenes become "playable" with the help of a freely available download created by a Dutch programmer.

"Grand Theft Auto" publisher Rockstar Games says the game's designers did not create that content. Not so, says the programmer, Patrick Wildenborg. He insists his "mod" merely unlocks code that was already hidden in the game's retail version.

Had such sexually explicit content been clearly a part of the retail version, it would likely have earned the game an "adults-only" rating. And that would have potentially cost Rockstar Games millions in lost sales.

The ESRB's president, Patricia Vance, cautions the public not to jump to conclusions while the board investigates the case.

"I think it is very important for people to realize that this game is rated "M" for mature," Vance said. "This game is not a game that was rated for children. Regardless of what if anything was modified, it's a game that the ESRB has made as clear as it can that it was not intended for anyone under the age of 17."

The ESRB is accustomed to pressure -- it was formed 11 years ago under heat from Congress to crack down on violent video games. The board now issues ratings for more than 1,000 game titles each year.

As part of the process, game makers must submit a lengthy form describing the most extreme content, and turn over visual samples and scripted dialogue as each game nears the final stages of development.
story.gta.gif
Rockstar Games "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" is rated "M" for mature gamers 17 years and older.

The ESRB then hires everyday New Yorkers to test the games and recommend ratings, from "E" for everyone to "AO" for adults only. At least three testers try each game, and recommended ratings are delivered within five days, Vance said.

"At the end of the day, what they're looking at is not how fun this game is," Vance said. "We're looking for objective, independent feedback ..."

That feedback is ultimately delivered to a board comprised of executives from the largest video game companies, including heavyweights like Microsoft Corp., Nintendo of America Inc. and Electronic Arts as well as Take 2 Interactive, the parent company responsible for the Grand Theft series.

Similar ratings for movies have been determined since 1968 by the Motion Picture Association of America under a system that is also voluntary.

But video games are much more complex than movies by their very design -- they usually have layers of content, and sometimes there are "hidden" areas that can be unlocked with special codes. Often, software patches and add-ons available for download can modify video games -- either made available by the original publisher or created by fans as modifications, or "mods."

Further complicating matters, games' final ratings can sometimes be of little use to parents and gamers deciding on a purchase.

For example, THQ Inc. offers two versions of "The Incredibles" for PC -- one rated "E" and the other "T" for teen -- each described simply as containing "cartoon violence." And "Chris Moneymaker's World Poker Championship" from Valu Soft is rated "M" for its "simulated gambling," while Hoyle's "Poker Series" gets an "E," also for "simulated gambling."

Then there's Atari's "F/A-18: Operation Iraqi Freedom," which allows the player to "Kick some Ba'ath" by dropping bombs on targets deep inside Iraq. It's rated "E" for everyone, just like Her Interactive's "Nancy Drew: The Secret of Shadow Ranch."

Dennis McCauley, who runs GamePolitics.com and follows hot-button industry issues, says the ESRB generally does a good job of determining ratings -- but only answering to itself is a problem.

"My primary issue with it is that it's not accountable to anyone. It's kind of a closed loop," McCauley said. "They need to have some kind of mechanism to interface with the public, and not necessarily the government because some people would see that as censorship."

But a good dose of government oversight is exactly what is needed, says Rep. Joe Baca, D-California. He has been trying for three years to get legislation passed that would require the FTC to determine if the video game industry's labeling practices are unfair or deceptive.

Baca says parents are being misled -- he thinks video game publishers seek the "M" rating even when they know a game includes content that should be in "Adults Only" territory.

"They know very well that if it said "Adults Only" these would not be displayed at a Target, at a Wal-Mart or any of the other video game (retailers), because they wouldn't be sold," Baca said in an interview.

And these games are having a real, detrimental impact on young minds, Baca said -- "In a video game, you're actually pursuing and simulating a person. You're under hypnosis. You're a person that is dramatizing, that is living the example of what is going on."
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,889
12,178
136
politicians = retards.. maybe if people actually parented, there wouldnt be problems
 

40Hands

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2004
5,042
0
71
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
politicians = retards.. maybe if people actually parented, there wouldnt be problems

wont you please think of the children!!!
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
Even more sad, this is an M-rated game, so only parents can buy it.

Clueless parents who blame society for their ignorance, apparently.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,488
6,331
126
wtf ... i think the whole Adults Only rating is stupid.

I guess M (for video games) = R (for movies)
I guess A (for video games) = NC17 (for movies)

NC-17 movies don't even exist I don't think. they shouldn't. since R means that its not for people under 17, NC-17 is pointless. Just like M means its for "Mature" people over 17, A isn't even necessary.

It's time parents start doing the ... *GASP* PARENTING!
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Originally posted by: zendari
The stuff in M rated games is not much different than R movies.

Right and it would be like these politicians trying to get every R movie turned into whatever rating XXX movies get.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,488
6,331
126
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
Even more sad, this is an M-rated game, so only parents can buy it.

Clueless parents who blame society for their ignorance, apparently.

Well the problem with that though is that most stores don't enforce the rule that people under 18 can't buy the game. I can see a problem with that, but then that is the problem with the actual stores selling the game.

But even if kids can buy the games, how the hell do they get to the store to buy the game? Their parents drive them there, fully knowing what the child is purchasing. So then again, it boils down to the parents.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,755
599
126
We need more laws to protect me from my own idiocy.

And I love how grisly violence and vehicular murder are given a pass for kids by most parents, but a tit shows up on the screen and that kid is now scarred for life.
 

RMSistight

Golden Member
Oct 2, 2003
1,740
0
0
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
politicians = retards.. maybe if people actually parented, there wouldnt be problems

Exactly. I remember one time I was at Target and this kid had GTA 3 in his hands. I then talked to his mother:

Me: "Do you know what type of game this is?"

Her: "No?"

Me: "Do you want your son to learn how to kill people, steal cars, pick up hookers and drug dealing?"

Her: Silence...

So yeah..pretty much parents either

A. Don't give a crap
B. Not educated enough
C. Would buy it just to get the kid to STFU

And then they have the nerve to sue the companies that design the game...what kind of BS is that?
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
81
Originally posted by: purbeast0
wtf ... i think the whole Adults Only rating is stupid.

I guess M (for video games) = R (for movies)
I guess A (for video games) = NC17 (for movies)

NC-17 movies don't even exist I don't think. they shouldn't. since R means that its not for people under 17, NC-17 is pointless. Just like M means its for "Mature" people over 17, A isn't even necessary.

It's time parents start doing the ... *GASP* PARENTING!

"Mommy can I have this game?"

"What is it son?"

"You steal cars, shoot people and have sex with sluts"

"Maybe when you are older. Maybe for your 9th bday :)"
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
Even more sad, this is an M-rated game, so only parents can buy it.

Clueless parents who blame society for their ignorance, apparently.

Except you're missing the point of Sen. Clinton's original complaint.

UNLIKE the film industry, which polices its R-rated policy pretty well (not allowing underage moviegoers into R-rated films), the video game industry and their retailers often DO NOT enforce the ESRB's ratings. It's quite easy for a teenager under the age of 17 to purchase GTA without their parent's permission. Is that a failure of the parenting? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree with the assertion that the retail industry needs to take the enforcement of videogame ratings more seriously.

Originally posted by: zendari
The stuff in M rated games is not much different than R movies.

The probe by the ESRB into GTA's M-rating is related to whether or not the programmers left hidden code in the game that, if unlocked, would garner it an AO-rating. I don't think anyone is arguing that the violence in GTA is deserving of an M-rating. It's the more explicit content uncovered by hackers in the community that's in question.
 

x471x

Member
Jul 7, 2005
44
0
0
Originally posted by: RMSistight
Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
politicians = retards.. maybe if people actually parented, there wouldnt be problems

Exactly. I remember one time I was at Target and this kid had GTA 3 in his hands. I then talked to his mother:

Me: "Do you know what type of game this is?"

Her: "No?"

Me: "Do you want your son to learn how to kill people, steal cars, pick up hookers and drug dealing?"

Her: Silence...

So yeah..pretty much parents either

A. Don't give a crap
B. Not educated enough
C. Would buy it just to get the kid to STFU

And then they have the nerve to sue the companies that design the game...what kind of BS is that?


Damn...kid must of 0wnz0red u in the b@lls after that
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,755
599
126
Does anyone else think, with all the recent bullsh|t going on in washington...that the whole lot needs to be purged so we can start over anew? Hanging them would be best, so as to set an example for their replacements.
 

40Hands

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2004
5,042
0
71
You can mod a game to do anything. I don't think it even matters if the content was there originally or not. Someone downloaded this patch to see sexual content. End of story. Is it Microsoft's fault that I downloaded a patch to put porno on the backs of the cards in solitaire?

No one can argue the fact that if parents don't like the idea of their children playing violent or sexual video games then enforce that sh!t yourself. Leave everyone else out of it.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
Originally posted by: purbeast0
wtf ... i think the whole Adults Only rating is stupid.

I guess M (for video games) = R (for movies)
I guess A (for video games) = NC17 (for movies)

NC-17 movies don't even exist I don't think. they shouldn't. since R means that its not for people under 17, NC-17 is pointless. Just like M means its for "Mature" people over 17, A isn't even necessary.

It's time parents start doing the ... *GASP* PARENTING!

R = under 17 must be accompanied by a guardian
NC17 = no under 17 admitted at all
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
Even more sad, this is an M-rated game, so only parents can buy it.

Clueless parents who blame society for their ignorance, apparently.

Except you're missing the point of Sen. Clinton's original complaint.

UNLIKE the film industry, which polices its R-rated policy pretty well (not allowing underage moviegoers into R-rated films), the video game industry and their retailers often DO NOT enforce the ESRB's ratings. It's quite easy for a teenager under the age of 17 to purchase GTA without their parent's permission. Is that a failure of the parenting? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree with the assertion that the retail industry needs to take the enforcement of videogame ratings more seriously.
So you agree with the Senator that underage kids can't get into R movies w/o their parents approval?

PLEASE!!! Have you been to an R rated movie recently? It's probably no harder to get into an R movie than it is to get M rated games.
 

AMDZen

Lifer
Apr 15, 2004
12,589
0
76
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Astaroth33
It's clear that we need an "OMGWTFBOOBIES!!1one" rating. Besides, everyone knows that exposing teenagers and anyone else under 18 to anything even remotely sexual is just un-Christian.
Even more sad, this is an M-rated game, so only parents can buy it.

Clueless parents who blame society for their ignorance, apparently.

Except you're missing the point of Sen. Clinton's original complaint.

UNLIKE the film industry, which polices its R-rated policy pretty well (not allowing underage moviegoers into R-rated films), the video game industry and their retailers often DO NOT enforce the ESRB's ratings. It's quite easy for a teenager under the age of 17 to purchase GTA without their parent's permission. Is that a failure of the parenting? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree with the assertion that the retail industry needs to take the enforcement of videogame ratings more seriously.
So you agree with the Senator that underage kids can't get into R movies w/o their parents approval?

PLEASE!!! Have you been to an R rated movie recently? It's probably no harder to get into an R movie than it is to get M rated games.

QFT x10

How easy is it to buy a ticket to one film and simply go into another? I used to do this ALLLLL the time as a kid in Middle school and high school. Oh mom we're going to see Flipper, as I sneak into Terminater 2.

In fact, its easier to do this in the movies because you can't buy a video game of Mario Bros and sneak the disc for GTA inside of it.

The "senator" or Bitch, whichever you want to call her - is simply doing what all of the too liberal politicians do, make excuses for the parents and looking to create more laws to make up for their laziness. Of course the conservative's are usually no better, crying Christian values on everything, but I don't see them making as much a fuss here. The fact is that this all comes down to the parents, you can't expect society to do everything for you.
 

Jeraden

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,518
1
76
And these games are having a real, detrimental impact on young minds, Baca said -- "In a video game, you're actually pursuing and simulating a person. You're under hypnosis. You're a person that is dramatizing, that is living the example of what is going on."

WTF! Those sneaky games, hypnotizing me without my knowledge.
 

ssvegeta1010

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2004
2,192
0
0
On the topic of R-rated movies, I saw one yesterday. I am 14, wasn't with a parent, and am 5'2". Clearly not over 17. The guy even gave me a student discount to get in. But, yeah, my parents know that the media won't 'corrupt' me at all. I know the difference between games or movies and reality.
 

MrChad

Lifer
Aug 22, 2001
13,507
3
81
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
So you agree with the Senator that underage kids can't get into R movies w/o their parents approval?

PLEASE!!! Have you been to an R rated movie recently? It's probably no harder to get into an R movie than it is to get M rated games.

No, of course there are ways around it. That doesn't mean the movie industry doesn't at least ATTEMPT to enforce some sort of age limit.

EDIT: But frankly, I think the video game industry should be pushing retailers to do this, not the government.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,644
10
81
Originally posted by: MrChad
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
So you agree with the Senator that underage kids can't get into R movies w/o their parents approval?

PLEASE!!! Have you been to an R rated movie recently? It's probably no harder to get into an R movie than it is to get M rated games.

No, of course there are ways around it. That doesn't mean the movie industry doesn't at least ATTEMPT to enforce some sort of age limit.

EDIT: But frankly, I think the video game industry should be pushing retailers to do this, not the government.

Attempting is what the industry is doing with games, thus we have ESRB, just like the MPAA. Enforcement varies by stores like it does with theaters.

MPAA as a success is a HORRID example. Every claim you could make about ESRB could apply to MPAA. I'm pretty sure there are examples of movies with conflicting ratings with similar content. I know I have heard of some, but couldn't begin to point out specifics.

Your edit is exactlly what needs to happen, the gov't. doesn't need to get involved. Just like they stayed out of movie ratings (and TV ratings).

edit: The senators "hypnosis" comment sealed the deal as far as her motivations. "Will someone think of the children!!!"