Discussion Esoteric Credit Card Question US vs European Cards

[Paratus]

So the wife and I occasionally travel to Europe. In Europe they use Chip & PIN technology for their credit cards. When buying something the card reader or kiosk will ask for a PIN to verify the transaction.

This is different than what we have for US credit card which are almost always Chip & Signature. For most transactions you have to sign a receipt to verify the transaction.

This can be a problem in Europe. Most of the time contactless payments work fine or the cashier can print the receipt but it occasionally becomes cumbersome or outright doesn’t work.

You look like a dumb American when the kiosk at the shop you are using has to call the one guy working the store to print a recipe on the only printer they have to bring to you to sign while you hold up the line.

And some automated kiosks for things like parking just flat out don’t work without a PIN.

Now I can hear some of you saying but Paratus just call the credit card company and have them activate your PIN. Unfortunately that doesn’t work on Chip & Signature cards. It lets the card work for cash advances but in Europe the credit transaction will never ask for the pin only signature.

You might also say, “Ok why don’t you google Chip & Pin cards?” And I’ll say virtually none of the credit card companies state anywhere if they are actual Chip & Pin cards. The customer service reps almost always don’t know and the articles that specifically talk about the best Chip & Pin cards for Americans get them wrong. We just tried to convert our Citibank MasterCard to the one the article stated was in their top 5 Chip and Pin cards and after customer service couldn’t tell us one way or another their Twitter response team said they had no Chip & Pin cards.

So does anyone here know of a decent travel card that’s actual compatible with European Chip & Pin technology?

 

[WelshBloke]

How the hell is chip and signature a thing?
And why?

 

[Paratus]

How the hell is chip and signature a thing?
And why?

Cuz Murica.

 

[WelshBloke]

Cuz Murica.

But chip and signature would be no more secure than an old fashioned one?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

But chip and signature would be no more secure than an old fashioned one?

In theory the vendor is supposed to verify signatures.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Don't go to EU.

It's full of 'peans.

 

[sdifox]

2023's Best Chip-and-PIN Credit Cards

Find a chip-and-PIN credit card that could come in handy when traveling outside the U.S.

moneytips.com

I googled

 

[dullard]

I almost always just put in 0000 when travelling. Always worked for me in multiple countries and with multiple different credit cards. And no, that isn't my PIN for anything at all. Confused the heck out of me initially when the waiters would ask for a PIN when I didn't have a PIN. But since I was forced to type something, I just typed 0000. I guess they are programmed to accept typing any PIN as a signature, but that is just a wild guess as to why it works.

Recently though, I did call one of my credit card company to define an actual pin. It went seamlessly.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I almost always just put in 0000 when travelling. Always worked for me in multiple countries and with multiple different credit cards. And no, that isn't my PIN for anything at all. Confused the heck out of me initially when the waiters would ask for a PIN when I didn't have a PIN. But since I was forced to type something, I just typed 0000. I guess they are programmed to accept typing any PIN as a signature, but that is just a wild guess as to why it works.

Recently though, I did call one of my credit card company to define an actual pin. It went seamlessly.

All zeros often works at checkouts for the whole 'phone number for discounts' scam. I assume used as a test sequence number.

 

[WelshBloke]

In theory the vendor is supposed to verify signatures.

But if I steal your card I can see the signature on the back so I can forge it.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

But if I steal your card I can see the signature on the back so I can forge it.

And if you beat me with a hammer you can get my pin. Most of this stuff is just to catch the 90%.

 

[pmv]

I almost always just put in 0000 when travelling. Always worked for me in multiple countries and with multiple different credit cards. And no, that isn't my PIN for anything at all. Confused the heck out of me initially when the waiters would ask for a PIN when I didn't have a PIN. But since I was forced to type something, I just typed 0000. I guess they are programmed to accept typing any PIN as a signature, but that is just a wild guess as to why it works.

Recently though, I did call one of my credit card company to define an actual pin. It went seamlessly.

Surprised at that.

Though it reminds me of the time I had to visit my workplace, out-of-hours, to do some unexpected computer-maintenance task, and too late realised (after letting myself in with the key) that I now needed to deactivate the burglar alarm or it would go off within a minute...and that I suddenly couldn't remember the 4-digit code to do so (might not even have known it in the first place as I never usually had to go in out-of-hours). In desperation I just entered "1234" and it worked!

 

[A///]

I've not used chip and signature in about a decade. It's been chip and pin since then. Rarely do I need to enter a pin even on large transactions. Most kiosks are the same and hitting that will force the payment to go through 90% of the time.

 

[Paratus]

2023's Best Chip-and-PIN Credit Cards

Find a chip-and-PIN credit card that could come in handy when traveling outside the U.S.

moneytips.com

I googled

Per the article there are Citibank cards that are good by they don’t list any. I’ve got a Citi card but their customer service says they don’t have any.

I’ve also got one of the USAA ones listed but similarly had some issues in the UK.

Barclays specifically says they have cards that will work with automated kiosks however they no longer offer their better cards (including ones in that article). The best I can find now is probably one with American Airlines points. Might be an option.

 

[WelshBloke]

And if you beat me with a hammer you can get my pin. Most of this stuff is just to catch the 90%.

But it's the security equivalent of having your pin written on the back of the card!

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Terms usually state 'Card not valid unless signed'. I haven't signed a card in many years. Never had one rejected for that.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

But it's the security equivalent of having your pin written on the back of the card!

Americans are permitted to be as dumb as reasonable to survive in the modern era, so yes we have the equivalent of sticky notes attached to our credit cards.

 

[waffleironhead]

I know my target redcard mastercard is chip and pin. In target at least, I've never used it elsewhere.

 

[pmv]

Reminds me of this Mitchell And Webb Sketch

 

[Brainonska511]

When I was in Paris earlier this year, pretty much everything worked fine with a chip-and-signature card. The contactless pay also worked fine, but after 50 Euro, it had to be via the chip, so not so great when you go to pay for dinner for yourself and spouse/friends.

I did have trouble at a subway terminal to buy a metro pass, but I think at the end of the day, the issue was the transaction was too high. Buying 1 ticket/pass at a time worked fine. Also, I found in the past (in Milan in 2019), when the unattended machine would absolutely deny any chip-and-signature card, a debit card would still work, since it has a PIN, and in this instance, I found that my Capital One checking was great: no foreign transaction fees at foreign ATMs or when used abroad to pay for stuff.

 

[Exterous]

We always bring our own pen just in case but it seems like many European countries are just skipping asking for signatures now.

Cuz Murica.

Awhile back one of the travel bloggers was talking to a knowledgeable CC contact and it has (or at least had) to do with the fact that changing the cards and terminals out would cost way more than what the banks spend eating fraudulent charges. I think there was also something like the chip + PIN cards cost marginally more and we have so many cards compared to Europeans + the banks issue so many replacement cards that that math works out for them keeping the signature cards too. But that last part might just be magnetic strip vs chip

Also, I found in the past (in Milan in 2019), when the unattended machine would absolutely deny any chip-and-signature card, a debit card would still work, since it has a PIN, and in this instance, I found that my Capital One checking was great: no foreign transaction fees at foreign ATMs or when used abroad to pay for stuff.

Yeah always bring a debit card for automated terminals. You never know when you'll run into an issue. Like say an unmanned gas station in the middle of nowhere New Zealand when you're low on gas

 

[Brainonska511]

Yeah always bring a debit card for automated terminals. You never know when you'll run into an issue. Like say an unmanned gas station in the middle of nowhere New Zealand when you're low on gas

What I really appreciate is some transit systems moving towards contactless stuff that is open to contactless credit cards or Apple/Google Pay. It makes using transit so much easier in a foreign country or even domestic city, since you don't have to figure out what or where to get the special fare cards.

 

[Paperdoc]

Here in Canada all current credit and debit cards are chip-and-PIN. BUT there are LIMITS on the transaction size. In my case my DEBIT card works with chip only (NO entry of PIN needed) up to $100. Over that I MUST enter my PIN. On the other hand, by default my VISA card came the NO such limit - only the master max limit for any single VISA transaction. So I had the bank change that to require my PIN for ANY VISA transaction.

(DHT)Osiris is right- any merchant is SUPPOSED TO verify that a signature on a receipt matches the one on the back of the card. (Yes, you are required to sign it, and yes, that could be forged by someone with skills). Few people have the skills for good forgery, but few clerks have the skills to detect even a poor forgery! I used to write on the back of my VISA card, "Ask for ID" to force the clerk to seek a different signature source. But I quit that years ago because I recognize that almost NO clerks ever try to compare to the back of the card!

Bottom line: Chip-and-PIN is more secure than Chip-and-Signature, only becasue NOBODY uses the Signature part! Plus, it's faster, especially for smaller purchases that do not even require PIN entry. Further, Chip-and Signature cannot work on Self-Checkout systems!

 

[BudAshes]

Here in Canada all current credit and debit cards are chip-and-PIN. BUT there are LIMITS on the transaction size. In my case my DEBIT card works with chip only (NO entry of PIN needed) up to $100. Over that I MUST enter my PIN. On the other hand, by default my VISA card came the NO such limit - only the master max limit for any single VISA transaction. So I had the bank change that to require my PIN for ANY VISA transaction.

(DHT)Osiris is right- any merchant is SUPPOSED TO verify that a signature on a receipt matches the one on the back of the card. (Yes, you are required to sign it, and yes, that could be forged by someone with skills). Few people have the skills for good forgery, but few clerks have the skills to detect even a poor forgery! I used to write on the back of my VISA card, "Ask for ID" to force the clerk to seek a different signature source. But I quit that years ago because I recognize that almost NO clerks ever try to compare to the back of the card!

Bottom line: Chip-and-PIN is more secure than Chip-and-Signature, only becasue NOBODY uses the Signature part! Plus, it's faster, especially for smaller purchases that do not even require PIN entry. Further, Chip-and Signature cannot work on Self-Checkout systems!

I just got back from a trip to Germany and I will say they actually did check my sig and then checked my ID since I write that on my cards as well. I was also in Italy on the Amalfi coast and not a single person checked in Italy and no one in America checks.

 

[Brainonska511]

(DHT)Osiris is right- any merchant is SUPPOSED TO verify that a signature on a receipt matches the one on the back of the card. (Yes, you are required to sign it, and yes, that could be forged by someone with skills). Few people have the skills for good forgery, but few clerks have the skills to detect even a poor forgery! I used to write on the back of my VISA card, "Ask for ID" to force the clerk to seek a different signature source. But I quit that years ago because I recognize that almost NO clerks ever try to compare to the back of the card!

Almost every new card I've gotten no longer requires signing of the card.