Epic: Intel ruins PC gaming

[jjones]

Actually, the true culprit is the PC industry as a whole. Face it, the average PC user doesn't need anything but integrated graphics to run their PC.

But what if you could buy a gaming card and just push it into a premade slot on your PC. No opening the case, no need to have a tech do it for you. The PC came with a slot accessible on the outside of the computer that you just take off the cover and plug in your new gaming card. How easy would it be for the average schmuck to game on their PC then?

It's amazing how behind the times the typical computer build is. Everything thing on the computer should be modular, snap in, and easily handled by the most ignorant of PC users. Able to be done without ever cracking the case. It's not hard to build a computer, but it's way harder than it needs to be considering how far we've come at this stage of the game.

Why is the computer still being built from the inside out? Why do I have to open the case and mess with cables if the only thing I'm doing is replacing a hard drive? All I should have to do is push the hard drive into a slot accessible on the outside of the case. The basic computer construction has not changed in more than 20 years. This is sad.

 

[Sureshot324]

If intel were to make their GPUs usable for gaming they would have to make major improvements to them every year. They would be forced to charge significantly more for functionality that most of the customers of these ISPs would never use. What would end up happening is Intel would lose its market share to some other company willing to fill the void with ultra cheap crappy GPUs. The free market would take care of that. You can't ask Intel to improve it's IGPs just for the sake of saving the poor PC games industry.

The game developers that are doing well are the ones that make their games playable on Intel IGPs. IMO every game should be able to run at least 30fps on an Intel ISP somehow. I believe it is possible, even for games like Crysis. Just reduce the view distance, eliminate most of the lighting and effects, and possibly even make low polygon versions of all the models. Yes it would take a lot of extra work, but it would be well worth it in increased sales.

The problem is with a lot of games (I'm looking at you, Epic) once you strip away all the fancy graphics, there's nothing left. You realize the game was never that good to begin with. IMO Epic has no talent whatsoever in making good games. The only good game they ever made in their entire existence was UT99, and UT2003/04 was ok I guess. Even these games were mostly just a clone of Quake and didn't require a lot of talent to make. The only thing they're good at is making graphics engines (which they are admitidly the best in the business).

 

[apoppin]

he's right ... the hell with intel .. they are irrelevant to moden gaming

thankfully there is AMD

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...3/04/amd_780g_chipset/

this is a real MB with "real" IG

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2162098&enterthread=y

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: jjones
Actually, the true culprit is the PC industry as a whole. Face it, the average PC user doesn't need anything but integrated graphics to run their PC.

But what if you could buy a gaming card and just push it into a premade slot on your PC. No opening the case, no need to have a tech do it for you. The PC came with a slot accessible on the outside of the computer that you just take off the cover and plug in your new gaming card. How easy would it be for the average schmuck to game on their PC then?

It's amazing how behind the times the typical computer build is. Everything thing on the computer should be modular, snap in, and easily handled by the most ignorant of PC users. Able to be done without ever cracking the case. It's not hard to build a computer, but it's way harder than it needs to be considering how far we've come at this stage of the game.

Why is the computer still being built from the inside out? Why do I have to open the case and mess with cables if the only thing I'm doing is replacing a hard drive? All I should have to do is push the hard drive into a slot accessible on the outside of the case. The basic computer construction has not changed in more than 20 years. This is sad.

Wow, that's a really good idea. You could actually have a very slim case, with the motherboard being the front face with some plastic stuff over it. Then you can just plug stuff into the right slots, all pre-wired. You could even just stick a processor into the front.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: jjones
Actually, the true culprit is the PC industry as a whole. Face it, the average PC user doesn't need anything but integrated graphics to run their PC.

But what if you could buy a gaming card and just push it into a premade slot on your PC. No opening the case, no need to have a tech do it for you. The PC came with a slot accessible on the outside of the computer that you just take off the cover and plug in your new gaming card. How easy would it be for the average schmuck to game on their PC then?

It's amazing how behind the times the typical computer build is. Everything thing on the computer should be modular, snap in, and easily handled by the most ignorant of PC users. Able to be done without ever cracking the case. It's not hard to build a computer, but it's way harder than it needs to be considering how far we've come at this stage of the game.

Why is the computer still being built from the inside out? Why do I have to open the case and mess with cables if the only thing I'm doing is replacing a hard drive? All I should have to do is push the hard drive into a slot accessible on the outside of the case. The basic computer construction has not changed in more than 20 years. This is sad.

Wow, that's a really good idea. You could actually have a very slim case, with the motherboard being the front face with some plastic stuff over it. Then you can just plug stuff into the right slots, all pre-wired. You could even just stick a processor into the front.

imagine how easy it would be for your average idiot to wreck it by spilling something, knocking the card, etc. the case provides protection for all of the components.

 

[Modelworks]

Intel is after the most profitable market they can sell product to.
Thats the average family who go to walmart, bestbuy , and buy a pc because they want email, internet, office, myspace and youtube.
Those type of families do not even care about pc gaming, they buy consoles for that.

The average family does not want to know what a driver is.
They don't want to have to understand the difference between a 8800GS and 8800GT.
All they want is to be able to buy the game and play it.


They look at the box of a pc game in the store and maybe buy it.
They come home install it and find it runs like crap.
They quit pc gaming.

That scenario happens every day.


If pc gaming is to thrive they need to develop a system like the console.
Where you come home , put in the disc and play.
No disabling anti-virus, updating drivers, installing updates, configuring bios.


Want companies like intel to make chips for gaming ? Or more developers to make more pc exclusive titles ?
Show them how they will recoup their investment + profit
If you can't do that your just pissing in the wind .

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Intel is after the most profitable market they can sell product to.
Thats the average family who go to walmart, bestbuy , and buy a pc because they want email, internet, office, myspace and youtube.
Those type of families do not even care about pc gaming, they buy consoles for that.

The average family does not want to know what a driver is.
They don't want to have to understand the difference between a 8800GS and 8800GT.
All they want is to be able to buy the game and play it.


They look at the box of a pc game in the store and maybe buy it.
They come home install it and find it runs like crap.
They quit pc gaming.

That scenario happens every day.


If pc gaming is to thrive they need to develop a system like the console.
Where you come home , put in the disc and play.
No disabling anti-virus, updating drivers, installing updates, configuring bios.


Want companies like intel to make chips for gaming ? Or more developers to make more pc exclusive titles ?
Show them how they will recoup their investment + profit
If you can't do that your just pissing in the wind .

if that is true, then why does AMD come up with something CHEAP and as cool as this?:

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...3/04/amd_780g_chipset/

IG that can crossfire .. and play modern DX10 games!!!!!!!!!

i'd say intel - outside their CPUs and high end chipsets - is stuck in the mud
--embarrassing really

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: ConstipatedVigilante

Originally posted by: jjones
Actually, the true culprit is the PC industry as a whole. Face it, the average PC user doesn't need anything but integrated graphics to run their PC.

But what if you could buy a gaming card and just push it into a premade slot on your PC. No opening the case, no need to have a tech do it for you. The PC came with a slot accessible on the outside of the computer that you just take off the cover and plug in your new gaming card. How easy would it be for the average schmuck to game on their PC then?

It's amazing how behind the times the typical computer build is. Everything thing on the computer should be modular, snap in, and easily handled by the most ignorant of PC users. Able to be done without ever cracking the case. It's not hard to build a computer, but it's way harder than it needs to be considering how far we've come at this stage of the game.

Why is the computer still being built from the inside out? Why do I have to open the case and mess with cables if the only thing I'm doing is replacing a hard drive? All I should have to do is push the hard drive into a slot accessible on the outside of the case. The basic computer construction has not changed in more than 20 years. This is sad.

Wow, that's a really good idea. You could actually have a very slim case, with the motherboard being the front face with some plastic stuff over it. Then you can just plug stuff into the right slots, all pre-wired. You could even just stick a processor into the front.

How about a USB video card?

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Intel is after the most profitable market they can sell product to.
Thats the average family who go to walmart, bestbuy , and buy a pc because they want email, internet, office, myspace and youtube.
Those type of families do not even care about pc gaming, they buy consoles for that.

The average family does not want to know what a driver is.
They don't want to have to understand the difference between a 8800GS and 8800GT.
All they want is to be able to buy the game and play it.


They look at the box of a pc game in the store and maybe buy it.
They come home install it and find it runs like crap.
They quit pc gaming.

That scenario happens every day.

Yes but it's always been like that. That doesn't explain why PC gaming was a once thriving industry and is now going downhill. Your average Joe always played on consoles because PC Gaming was a bit too complicated, but in the past there was still enough of a market of computer savy people for PC Gaming to be successful.

 

[apoppin]

You think there is enough bandwidth? AGP is outdated by PCIex16

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: apoppin


if that is true, then why does AMD come up with something CHEAP and as cool as this?:

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...3/04/amd_780g_chipset/

IG that can crossfire .. and play modern DX10 games!!!!!!!!!

i'd say intel - outside their CPUs and high end chipsets - is stuck in the mud
--embarrassing really

AMD is facing a losing situation right now.
They are doing anything they can to try to bring in profits.

Intel doesn't need to worry about pc gaming.
They have more than enough income with what they already develop.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Intel is after the most profitable market they can sell product to.
Thats the average family who go to walmart, bestbuy , and buy a pc because they want email, internet, office, myspace and youtube.
Those type of families do not even care about pc gaming, they buy consoles for that.

The average family does not want to know what a driver is.
They don't want to have to understand the difference between a 8800GS and 8800GT.
All they want is to be able to buy the game and play it.


They look at the box of a pc game in the store and maybe buy it.
They come home install it and find it runs like crap.
They quit pc gaming.

That scenario happens every day.


If pc gaming is to thrive they need to develop a system like the console.
Where you come home , put in the disc and play.
No disabling anti-virus, updating drivers, installing updates, configuring bios.


Want companies like intel to make chips for gaming ? Or more developers to make more pc exclusive titles ?
Show them how they will recoup their investment + profit
If you can't do that your just pissing in the wind .

That's pretty much how I feel here... Add on to that that I've lost all respect for Epic at this point. Not that I hadn't before, but they just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole with all this bitching, it's pretty sad.

I think part of the blame should go with the consumer, though. People don't make any effort whatsoever, nor do they want to, to understand anything about what's inside their computer. I'm not talking about the grandparents who use it for e-mail or anything like that, but if you're buying a computer and think you'd like to get into gaming you should do a half hour of research before plopping down the cash. If you're upgrading your video card, you don't just go to Best Buy and browse what they have, and choose the cheapest thing there - I'm sure we've all seen this.

It's probably overly easy for me to say this given what I know, and companies like Dell are to blame too (the way they advertise their systems, they try to make them all look fairly capable even if they're not).

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324




Yes but it's always been like that. That doesn't explain why PC gaming was a once thriving industry and is now going downhill. Your average Joe always played on consoles because PC Gaming was a bit too complicated, but in the past there was still enough of a market of computer savy people for PC Gaming to be successful.

Pc gaming was thriving because it could offer something that the consoles couldn't.
A big part of that was online multiplayer.
Consoles really weren't that good at online play until the last few years.

Before pc gaming had enough to offer that consumers were willing to put up with the technical problems to play the games. Now thats just not so.

To get someone to fork out the cash for pc gaming hardware your going to have to offer them something they can't get on the console, and your going to have to make that something easy to use and cheap.

So what can a pc game offer a gamer that a console can't ?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Sureshot324




Yes but it's always been like that. That doesn't explain why PC gaming was a once thriving industry and is now going downhill. Your average Joe always played on consoles because PC Gaming was a bit too complicated, but in the past there was still enough of a market of computer savy people for PC Gaming to be successful.

Pc gaming was thriving because it could offer something that the consoles couldn't.
A big part of that was online multiplayer.
Consoles really weren't that good at online play until the last few years.

Before pc gaming had enough to offer that consumers were willing to put up with the technical problems to play the games. Now thats just not so.

To get someone to fork out the cash for pc gaming hardware your going to have to offer them something they can't get on the console, and your going to have to make that something easy to use and cheap.

So what can a pc game offer a gamer that a console can't ?

since you asked

1) ability to do office work and send emails also
-try that on your Xbox

2) at least $10 cheaper for EACH comparable PC game

3) Upgrade-ability - the console is trash-bound after 3-5 years

4) Mods

5) a 'community' of other than children

that's for *starters* .. you go

here's MY opinion - to Epic ... and the other *crybaby Devs* _

shut your whining mouths and/or get the HELL OUT of PC gaming and take your shit attitude to Consoles - where you evidently "belong"

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Modelworks


So what can a pc game offer a gamer that a console can't ?

since you asked

1) ability to do office work and send emails also
-try that on your Xbox

2) at least $10 cheaper for EACH comparable PC game

3) Upgrade-ability - the console is trash-bound after 3-5 years

4) Mods

5) a 'community' of other than children

1 - can purchase a cheap pc to do that. For 1000.00 I can purchase a console and a pc.
2 - pc games are cheaper, but I can also rent console games cheap.
3 - Upgrade is also part of the problem. Developers want to make their game standout so they push new technology , making pc gaming cost more.
Console going to the trash isn't important, 300.00 for something that last 3 years. Cant do that on a pc.
4 - mods are done on both xbox and ps3
5 - community varies - lots of pc games with annoying children.


Just for the record, I don't own a single console or handheld, I haven't bought one in years.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: vhx
He is somewhat right.

Intel puts out a lot of garbage motherboards and garbage onboard video. These are usually backed by major PC builders who mass market these. They always put barely minimum specifications on their machines, too. Working for vid card tech support I can say that I get many PCI cards still being bought for machines only 3 years old. These cards can barely even START CoD4. People who buy a new video card and realize, Oops my new 2007 machine only has a 250W power supply and then they get upset they might have to drop another $50 for a new power supply. So in a way he is right, Intel and many budget systems shaft a potential consumer base they could of had.

That being said, I agree this is just a copout. You can make a successful game without it having to be Crysis or UT3 details.

At least new motherboards with integrated video usually come with PCI-E 16x slot now. For a long time not only was an external graphics card required to play any actual games on the PC, but your average crap box PC had no way of installing one! PCI doesn't count either. So in some respects, Epic is right. A graphics processor of some time has been required to play games for over 5 years now, and most motherboards on your average users machine couldn't even upgrade to one without throwing the whole PC away.

It always kind of boggled my mind that for pretty much the entire life of AGP, boards that had onboard graphics that USED THE AGP bus didn't spring the extra 50 cents of plastic to stick a port in.

 

[trexpesto]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Modelworks


So what can a pc game offer a gamer that a console can't ?

since you asked

1) ability to do office work and send emails also
-try that on your Xbox

2) at least $10 cheaper for EACH comparable PC game

3) Upgrade-ability - the console is trash-bound after 3-5 years

4) Mods

5) a 'community' of other than children

1 - can purchase a cheap pc to do that. For 1000.00 I can purchase a console and a pc.
2 - pc games are cheaper, but I can also rent console games cheap.
3 - Upgrade is also part of the problem. Developers want to make their game standout so they push new technology , making pc gaming cost more.
Console going to the trash isn't important, 300.00 for something that last 3 years. Cant do that on a pc.
4 - mods are done on both xbox and ps3
5 - community varies - lots of pc games with annoying children.

Just for the record, I don't own a single console or handheld, I haven't bought one in years.

PC advantages for $.02 Alex:
1. XBox 360 does work?
2. pRon
3. Keyboard/Mouse controllers
4. Endless HD space
5. computer hacking skills

 

[RandomFool]

When it comes to business computers there's nothing wrong with making them actually capable of gaming. The majority of compaies I've worked at don't give you admin access anyway so people couldn't install COD4 without IT's help.

Also, most companies don't walk into Best Buy and say "I need 100 computers please". HP, IBM and Dell have business targeted PCs that the consumer generally doesn't buy. It wouldn't be terribly hard for them to seperate graphics chips there. Decent IGPs for the consumer, whatever is cheapest for the Businesses.

 

[I4AT]

Does he think his market consists of every PC in existence? If only 40% have a workable graphics card, you take that into account prior to development and build your game budget around it. Guess there's a reason he's the tech guy and not the business guy, what an idiot.

 

[chizow]

He's right though, 60% of new PCs can't run the games that are supposed to be a reason to buy a new PC if you're interested in gaming. I'm pretty sure I saw a nearly identical quote about "games always working in the past" from a much more credible source (Carmack). Sure there's examples of games being incredibly successful without having top-notch graphics, but those aren't the games you'd be buying a new PC for in the first place. Look at the top 2 selling PC games over the last few years (WOW and Sims 2) and you'll see they're far from demanding or cuttting edge in graphics, but the fact they cater to a larger user-base is certainly an integral part of their success.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Modelworks


So what can a pc game offer a gamer that a console can't ?

since you asked

1) ability to do office work and send emails also
-try that on your Xbox

2) at least $10 cheaper for EACH comparable PC game

3) Upgrade-ability - the console is trash-bound after 3-5 years

4) Mods

5) a 'community' of other than children

1 - can purchase a cheap pc to do that. For 1000.00 I can purchase a console and a pc.
2 - pc games are cheaper, but I can also rent console games cheap.
3 - Upgrade is also part of the problem. Developers want to make their game standout so they push new technology , making pc gaming cost more.
Console going to the trash isn't important, 300.00 for something that last 3 years. Cant do that on a pc.
4 - mods are done on both xbox and ps3
5 - community varies - lots of pc games with annoying children.


Just for the record, I don't own a single console or handheld, I haven't bought one in years.

$300.00 ? .. Xbox360 was $450, wasn't it and PS3 was $650. And then you need all the peripherals that cost twice as much as their PC counterparts

and i DO upgrade my PC for cheap. i SELL my OLD parts to defray the COST of my NEW ones

for example i can sell both of my GPUs for ~$350 - i paid $480 and i will pay maybe $500 for my next one. The MB need to be upgraded 3-5 years and the CPUs are also "drop in" like the video cards

i used to be in the console game .. letsee i had the first few starting with Pong .. my last one was Atari 4800 - i returned "Genesis" to ToysRUs
and stayed with my PC - Atari 800xl for gaming

 

[Soundmanred]

I remember not too long ago, you didn't get a free cheap graphics solution with a motherboard. You HAD to buy a graphics card to do ANYTHING. I'd rather no go back to that time. If I want to play games, I buy a card that's capable. I don't play PC games (last one I played was Fable on my Intel 3100 graphics chipset, and it worked flawlessly) and would rather not pay more for better integrated video that I don't need.

 

[Thraxen]

The bottom line is that the statement in the OP is correct, IGP do suck. Perhaps Epic is just making excuses, but that doesn't make the statement completely incorrect. And I love how this has devolved into yet anohter thread of console bashing. We've now come full circle with the same old people talking the same old nonsense about how you cheap you can make PC gaming by selling old parts and putting in new ones or talking about how PCs are multifunctional tools (duh!). None of that stupid shit even matters to general public. They ARE NOT looking to swap parts in and out of their PCs and many like that fact that consoles keep their gaming separate from their PCs (i.e. entertainment vs work/email/surfing). You guys are just going to have to accept that reality. No amount of Epic sized whining on your part is going to change that.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Well, like it or not, he does actually have a point. These are graphics 'adapters' that are so god-awful that they can't even run the new windows GUI, and Intel basically cajoled Microsoft into changing it's regulations. They're utter and complete garbage. and most of the time they flat out don't work. I have trouble believing any internet active PC gamer hasn't had plenty of encounters with poor schmucks trying to get some game to run on one of those decelerators.

A guy buys a game, and it runs, but not well, he might see a reason to upgrade. A guy buys a game and it does not run at all, he's frustrated - and given that he's already out $50 given the draconian return policy on PC software that is standard today, he certainly ain't looking to spend more money. And then he looks at the XBox in the corner, where the game just works.....and we know what happens. It's happening all around us.

I agree, he does have a point, but the reality is that he's bitching just to bitch.

There are smash hits in PC gaming all the time. It seems that if a developer makes a game and it flops, they immediately start bitching and lamenting the downfall of PC gaming (usually referring to piracy as this huge force that killed their sales, but now Sweeney is complaining about Intel not supplying good on-board graphics).

I'm sorry that you made a shitty game and that it didn't sell well. They can't all be winners. Pick your ass back up and try again. Quit your bitching.

Has anyone heard of these people who supposedly by a PC with on-board graphics and a 250W power supply and then purchase COD4 thinking it'll run great? Where are these morons? The minimum system requirements are printed right on the box.

I think it's pretty difficult to assume that consumers are buying budget PCs with the intent of playing games. Every PC retailer I've encountered has made it abundantly clear that you should buy the biggest and best PC possible if you want to play games (even if you don't necessarily need a quad-core processor, they may try to push it on you). Salesman = commission pay = more money in his pocket if you sells you a better PC as opposed to a budget PC. No salesman in his right mind will sell you a budget PC if you even have the slightest inclination for gaming.

This whole article is a load of bull. Yeah, Intel sucks for putting crappy integrated graphics on their motherboards. It's true. However, that's not the reason that your game flopped.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: PhatoseAlpha
Well, like it or not, he does actually have a point. These are graphics 'adapters' that are so god-awful that they can't even run the new windows GUI, and Intel basically cajoled Microsoft into changing it's regulations. They're utter and complete garbage. and most of the time they flat out don't work. I have trouble believing any internet active PC gamer hasn't had plenty of encounters with poor schmucks trying to get some game to run on one of those decelerators.

A guy buys a game, and it runs, but not well, he might see a reason to upgrade. A guy buys a game and it does not run at all, he's frustrated - and given that he's already out $50 given the draconian return policy on PC software that is standard today, he certainly ain't looking to spend more money. And then he looks at the XBox in the corner, where the game just works.....and we know what happens. It's happening all around us.

I agree, he does have a point, but the reality is that he's bitching just to bitch.

There are smash hits in PC gaming all the time. It seems that if a developer makes a game and it flops, they immediately start bitching and lamenting the downfall of PC gaming (usually referring to piracy as this huge force that killed their sales, but now Sweeney is complaining about Intel not supplying good on-board graphics).

I'm sorry that you made a shitty game and that it didn't sell well. They can't all be winners. Pick your ass back up and try again. Quit your bitching.

Has anyone heard of these people who supposedly by a PC with on-board graphics and a 250W power supply and then purchase COD4 thinking it'll run great? Where are these morons? The minimum system requirements are printed right on the box.

I think it's pretty difficult to assume that consumers are buying budget PCs with the intent of playing games. Every PC retailer I've encountered has made it abundantly clear that you should buy the biggest and best PC possible if you want to play games (even if you don't necessarily need a quad-core processor, they may try to push it on you). Salesman = commission pay = more money in his pocket if you sells you a better PC as opposed to a budget PC. No salesman in his right mind will sell you a budget PC if you even have the slightest inclination for gaming.

This whole article is a load of bull. Yeah, Intel sucks for putting crappy integrated graphics on their motherboards. It's true. However, that's not the reason that your game flopped.

/QFT