Epic Games has declared war on Apple

[quikah]

This is pretty hilarious

Free Fortnite FAQ

Epic has taken legal action to end Apple and Google’s anti-competitive restrictions on mobile device marketplaces.

www.epicgames.com

Love their parody video:

It began with Epic doing a server side update which allows users to buy vBucks directly from Epic bypassing the iOS appstore. This is a blatant violation of iOS policies. Apple responding by removing Fortnite from the appstore, Epic immediately responding by filing a lawsuit against Apple.

https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/apple-complaint-734589783.pdf

Given the cheeky video and the 65-page lawsuit, looks like this was all planned out by Epic. This is going to be fun.

 

[Midwayman]

The whole 30% on anything bought in app is a little insane. It makes using some apps really inconvenient. I'd like to see it a bit more reasonable but if Amazon didn't have much luck with it I don't have much faith in Epic.

 

[brianmanahan]

The whole 30% on anything bought in app is a little insane. It makes using some apps really inconvenient. I'd like to see it a bit more reasonable but if Amazon didn't have much luck with it I don't have much faith in Epic.

isn't that what steam charges too?

it's a pity that gabe newell started making so much money on steam because valve no longer had any need to make games

 

[KMFJD]

good for epic, also just kicked of the google play store

 

[shortylickens]

I wonder how many children playing fortnite on their phones even get this reference.

 

[Newbian]

I am still wondering who plays a competitive pc game on mobile when they would absolutely get destroyed because of crossplay.

Otherwise I see no issue here for if you wish to use their service then it's their rules otherwise simply make your own game store and enjoy all the money.

It's even better coming from epic after all the shenanigans they have done the past few years and trying to force everyone to use their service only.

If they were true to their beliefs then they wouldn't take any money from games sold on their store.

 

[Newbian]

isn't that what steam charges too?

it's a pity that gabe newell started making so much money on steam because valve no longer had any need to make games

It has a scale system depending how much you sell and it can drop down to 20% but then again steam offers a lot extra that a lot of the other stores still don't have.

 

[ultimatebob]

I wonder how many children playing fortnite on their phones even get this reference.

Their kids might not get the reference, but their techie parents will.

This is a painful reminder that Apple has basically become the evil corporate behemoth that they were warning us about in the 80's (IBM) or the 90's (Microsoft). They now have more monopoly power over the iOS platform than Microsoft or IBM could have dreamed of having with PC's during their heyday. They control the hardware, the software, the application distribution system, AND they get a 30% cut of any in-app purchases.

If Google didn't exist, Apple's stranglehold on their mobile devices probably would have been broken up by the government years ago.

 

[quikah]

good for epic, also just kicked of the google play store

And they have a lawsuit for that as well

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf

They have a weaker case against Google IMO as there are alternatives on Android.

 

[ultimatebob]

And they have a lawsuit for that as well

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21759099/file0.243586135368002.pdf

They have a weaker case against Google IMO as there are alternatives on Android.

Yeah, that's not going to work. Adding third-party app stores in Android is as easy is clicking an "Allow third-party sources" checkbox under the security settings, and downloading a .apk file.

Of course, once you do that, you need to worry about your kids downloading free_fortnite_skins_totallynotmalware.apk on their devices

 

[BudAshes]

Fortnite and Minecraft are 2 games that offer 0 interest for me and they are the most popular games on the planet.

I do find this court battle a little interesting though.

My guess is the next headline "Apple buys Epic games."

 

[Midwayman]

isn't that what steam charges too?

I think so, but there isn't another way to do it on iOS. I think the big question is if they charge part of in app sales for subscriptions, etc.

 

[purbeast0]

As someone who has published 10+ apps on the iOS App Store, I am 100% on Apple's side of this. This is just how this business works. You use a platform to distribute your game and make money, that platform takes a cut.

And Fortnite is free to download if I'm not mistaken, so Apple makes no money from downloads either.

 

[dullard]

As someone who has published 10+ apps on the iOS App Store, I am 100% on Apple's side of this. This is just how this business works. You use a platform to distribute your game and make money, that platform takes a cut.

And Fortnite is free to download if I'm not mistaken, so Apple makes no money from downloads either.

If you want your apps to be used, you have two options: Apple and Google. And you rightly figured out for your needs that you realistically only have one option: Apple. Apple is as close to a monopoly as it gets for your needs.

The legal definition of a monopoly (in the US at least) is that in any market does the company have monopoly power. Legal definition of monopoly power could be exclusive agreements (saying you can't use another app provider), tying of the sale of two products (such as if you buy their phone you must use their app store), and refusal to deal (banning a company or a product if they don't do what you want). It all comes down to whether or not a court will agree that Apple or Google has over ~50% market share in any market (>~50% in a geographical area or >~50% in a usage area such as a monopoly on a certain type of app). 50% is generally the lower limit, although that will vary from court to court and case to case.

Typical cuts in other industries:

• Aerospace, Automotive: 3% to 4%
• Computers, electronics, machines: 4% to 5%
• Biotech, software, pharmaceuticals: 6% to 10%

Apple and Google: 30%

That 30% is why there is a problem. Yes, Apple and Google deserve a cut because without them, your apps would go nowhere. But their monopoly cut is just so out of line with the rest of the business world. They have monopoly power and are abusing it.

 

[purbeast0]

If you want your apps to be used, you have two options: Apple and Google. And you rightly figured out for your needs that you realistically only have one option: Apple. Apple is as close to a monopoly as it gets for your needs.

The legal definition of a monopoly (in the US at least) is that in any market does the company have monopoly power. Legal definition of monopoly power could be exclusive agreements (saying you can't use another app provider), tying of the sale of two products (such as if you buy their phone you must use their app store), and refusal to deal (banning a company or a product if they don't do what you want). It all comes down to whether or not a court will agree that Apple or Google has over ~50% market share in any market (>~50% in a geographical area or >~50% in a usage area such as a monopoly on a certain type of app). 50% is generally the lower limit, although that will vary from court to court and case to case.

Typical cuts in other industries:

• Aerospace, Automotive: 3% to 4%
• Computers, electronics, machines: 4% to 5%
• Biotech, software, pharmaceuticals: 6% to 10%

Apple and Google: 30%

That 30% is why there is a problem. Yes, Apple and Google deserve a cut because without them, your apps would go nowhere. But their monopoly cut is just so out of line with the rest of the business world. They have monopoly power and are abusing it.

I have been creating apps on iOS since 2009 and back then the cut was 30%. It's not like Apple got developers on with 5% cut and then upped it. I just don't have a problem with it.

In your typical examples, what software are you referring to where they only get 6-10 percent of the cut?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Is there even a way to load apps on an iPhone other than through the App-store?

At least in Android I can download a flat-file app, manually load it + install it.

It's obviously an "at your own risk" kind of thing since it doesn't go through the Google Play store, but at least I have that option.

 

[ultimatebob]

Is there even a way to load apps on an iPhone other than through the App-store?

At least in Android I can download a flat-file app, manually load it + install it.

It's obviously an "at your own risk" kind of thing since it doesn't go through the Google Play store, but at least I have that option.

Not without hacking the phone or compiling and installing apps on your own phone using XCode, no.

 

[quikah]

The Google lawsuit is a bit different. They are accusing Google of preventing Oneplus from preinstalling the Epic store on their phone and LG from even discussing this with Epic. Also they are claiming that ads for apps require them to be in the Play store.

 

[dullard]

In your typical examples, what software are you referring to where they only get 6-10 percent of the cut?

There are only a few perfect examples (digital stores to sell apps on a specific device are pretty rare). Epic itself does 12%: https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article238357358.html

I was going more on the typical royalties paid to use another company's software:

Software Development Royalty/Profit Sharing Rates

www.nwds-ak.com

Computer Software: 10.5% (average), 6.8% (median)

That said, Apple will win. They have the best lawyers I've ever seen.

 

[quikah]

That said, Apple will win. They have the best lawyers I've ever seen.

I think they have a good chance in the EU, not sure if they have filed a simultaneous suit there or not. This could just be an additional fact to include in the EU antitrust probe of Apple/Google.

 

[Newbian]

The only problem is if they somehow win is then they would have to do the same thing for the games they sell on the epic store and not take any cuts from anything hosted on it.

 

[JM Aggie08]

le epic pwnage

 

[local]

Please let them strangle each other into oblivion. Two of my least favorite companies. But I am sure they will somehow both emerge stronger.

 

[Aikouka]

As someone who has published 10+ apps on the iOS App Store, I am 100% on Apple's side of this. This is just how this business works. You use a platform to distribute your game and make money, that platform takes a cut.

And Fortnite is free to download if I'm not mistaken, so Apple makes no money from downloads either.

I'm kind of mixed on everything, and that's mostly because I don't think there's a perfect answer/solution.

Ultimately, Apple does incur a cost in regard to the App Store. At the individual purchase level, they are the ones that handle the transactions, but it should be noted that Apple does sometimes bundle purchases into a single transaction, which is a smarter move and can reduce the fees. (I'd have to do research on the terms, but there's a reason why some stores will not accept cards under a certain amount.) So, the question is... how much does Apple have to spend purely on facilitating the transaction? We may also have to add in other aspects such as customer support to that figure.

Outside of purely the transaction, Apple has to also make money to support the entire App Store as a whole. That's really where you reach this awkward, nebulous figure that's hard to truly pin down. I think people tend to be a bit more forgiving when they think the platform "does a good job", but I do think the App Store needs a bit of work. I recall when Slay the Spire came out on iOS, and I couldn't find it on the App Store because it was buried down in page six or something like that. (I had to find a direct link from a news article to get the game.) Given Apple's record revenues from digital services, it's quite likely that they're making a very health profit off these digital sales and fees.

Now, one thing that I think is important to consider is that as you start tweaking fees, "the suits" will do their best to find the way to keep the most money. For example, if Apple reduced IAP fees to 10% but kept purchase fees to 30%, would more apps move toward a freemium model? I would lean toward yes. Why would I charge someone $3 upfront and make $2.10 when I could charge $3 via an IAP and make $2.70. I don't think Apple is dumb, and they realize that they have to be wary of them devilish CFOs.

 

[linkgoron]

As someone who has published 10+ apps on the iOS App Store, I am 100% on Apple's side of this. This is just how this business works. You use a platform to distribute your game and make money, that platform takes a cut.

And Fortnite is free to download if I'm not mistaken, so Apple makes no money from downloads either.

This is a half truth at best. Yes, you use Apple's platform to distribute your app, but you don't have any other choice If you want to publish your app. You can't even side load apps, or use another app store.