Epic CEO: “Universal Windows Platform can, should, must, and will die”

[IEC]

From Ars Technica:

In a scathing editorial in The Guardian, Epic Games cofounder Tim Sweeney spoke out about Microsoft's Universal Windows Platform (UWP) initiative, calling it a "fiasco" and "the most aggressive move Microsoft has ever made."

"With its new Universal Windows Platform (UWP) initiative, Microsoft has built a closed platform-within-a-platform into Windows 10, as the first apparent step towards locking down the consumer PC ecosystem," said Sweeney. "Microsoft has launched new PC Windows features exclusively in UWP and is effectively telling developers you can use these Windows features only if you submit to the control of our locked-down UWP ecosystem."

"PC UWP can, should, must, and will die as a result of industry backlash," Sweeney said.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...indows-platform-can-should-must-and-will-die/

UWP apps are subject to a host of limitations, including not being able to turn off V-sync, (currently) no SLI or Crossfire support, no .exe file for use with Steam, and no custom mouse and keyboard bindings. Game files are also locked down, which prevents modding.

 

[Subyman]

I still haven't seen what "features" are locked behind this system. If they are system specific then I don't see it being a big deal, if they are locking certain DX12 features behind the format then ouch.

 

[cbrunny]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2465964

 

[Anteaus]

I still haven't seen what "features" are locked behind this system. If they are system specific then I don't see it being a big deal, if they are locking certain DX12 features behind the format then ouch.

The profitability of the Windows platform as Microsoft transitions from standalone to "Windows as a service" relies on their ability to control content. Through UWP, MS is working toward a Apple/OSX type scenario where the majority of developed content will eventually flow through UWP which means control and fees for MS.

Microsoft declared Windows 10 is the last standalone release of the Windows operating system; therefore, that is a revenue stream which will no longer be viable in 5-10 years. It is logical that MS has a plan in order to replace that revenue. UWD is designed to do that. It will be used for targeted advertising and application sales. I'm pretty sure some of the privacy concerns with Windows 10 are related to data MS wants to use to this end. If they see User X is playing RTS games, they might advertise more RTS games...etc. It's not malicious at face value, but nor is it innocent.

This is less about specific features and more about what the future looks like. Regardless of what MS says today, UWD is being built to eventually absorb all Windows content. They want UWD to be for all Windows software what Steam is for gaming. It will give MS a way to fleece fees out of developers while giving them power over content. Basically, Microsoft is trying to become Apple.

Game developers are rightfully nervous about it, but for various reasons.

 

[Rustican]

I don't understand the problem here. No one is forcing developers to use UWP. They can still freely use the win32 API and release their games directly or on Steam or port it to other platforms like the XBox or PS4.

If you want to use UWP you gain the advantage of being able to run on PC, mobile and Xbox with minimal porting efforts. The down side is you need to go through the MS store. If developers think they will save costs by using UWP then great. If not then just do it the old way.

 

[BoberFett]

Yeah, seems like a non-issue.

 

[Elixer]

UWP = DRM.
Their DRM blows chunks, as does most DRM.

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Genx87]

If they close off Steam on windows. Then SteamOS will be a replacement for my gaming PC. There is little Windows itself adds to my gaming PC.

Now we know why Quantum Break is Windows 10. Probably had little to do with DX12 and more to do with UWP.

 

[Rustican]

If they close off Steam on windows. Then SteamOS will be a replacement for my gaming PC. There is little Windows itself adds to my gaming PC.

Now we know why Quantum Break is Windows 10. Probably had little to do with DX12 and more to do with UWP.

Your FUD isn't realistic. Unless MS decides to lock down the entire 32bit API people are going to be able to play PC games that don't rely on UWP. Steam isn't the only source of games either. Developers can release it directly, or on media or all the countless others stores like GoG, Amazon, EA, Ubisoft, etc..

Yes, UWP has DRM, and is more locked down. No one is forcing devs to use it but if they do they software can now be deployed on multiple platforms increasing there installed base with minimal additional development costs. It's a trade off that devs will need to make.

 

[magomago]

i'd rather pay for an OS than be targetted with ads when I click the "start" button.

 

[Genx87]

Your FUD isn't realistic. Unless MS decides to lock down the entire 32bit API people are going to be able to play PC games that don't rely on UWP. Steam isn't the only source of games either. Developers can release it directly, or on media or all the countless others stores like GoG, Amazon, EA, Ubisoft, etc..

Yes, UWP has DRM, and is more locked down. No one is forcing devs to use it but if they do they software can now be deployed on multiple platforms increasing there installed base with minimal additional development costs. It's a trade off that devs will need to make.

What FUD?

 

[Rustican]

What FUD?

Fear, uncertainty Doubt (FUD), common tactic used to illicit panic and end of the world mentality.

Advertisers use it to make you buy things you don't need.
Politicians use it so they can pass laws that you don't want.
Hippies use it when they can't understand the big words on prescription drugs.

 

[Dahak]

From a gaming perspective I somewhat agree, the UWP, should not be used for AAA games. The idea behind the platform is that you can create apps(and games) that could run on PC,tablet,phone, Xbox with out to much trouble.

Tying in a AAA game that is not available other ways is not a good thing
Good Example
Rise of the Tomb Raider - available in the WinStore as well as steam and others

Bad Example
Upcoming Forza
Quantum Break
Gears of War Ultimate Edition (haven't see otherwise yet so guess still WinStore only)

 

[sweenish]

He should talk with Valve, I hear their attempts to destroy Windows is working out wonderfully.

 

[Genx87]

Fear, uncertainty Doubt (FUD), common tactic used to illicit panic and end of the world mentality.

Advertisers use it to make you buy things you don't need.
Politicians use it so they can pass laws that you don't want.
Hippies use it when they can't understand the big words on prescription drugs.

I know what it is. I am asking what in my response is FUD.

 

[Rustican]

If they close off Steam on windows.

I consider this FUD because because it is a what if the sky is falling question.

Also, Steam isn't the end all and be all of getting games. How is Steam even relevant? The article says Steam and Origin will be at a disadvantage because of UWP games can't run on them. Same is true the other way around, UWP applications can't run on Steam and Origin which are more mature products and have a huge installed base.

As far as Quantum Break goes, exclusive titles have always been around. MS want's to promote their market just as much as Sony wants to promote the PS4.

 

[Topweasel]

Bad Example
Upcoming Forza
Quantum Break
Gears of War Ultimate Edition (haven't see otherwise yet so guess still WinStore only)

But how is this any different than EA sadly not releasing their games on Steam for the past 4 years or so and only having it available on Origin?

 

[Carfax83]

I don't see a problem with this if Microsoft puts their own first party titles (including AAA games) on UWP. It's their IP, they can do what they like with it..

And if a developer agrees to put their IP on Windows Store and Steam (or any other DDS), then more power to them..

But if, and it's a big if, Msoft eventually tries to wither away Win32 and make UWP the sole platform for Windows development, then yeah, that's a big problem.

I don't think Microsoft is that stupid though. There would be an immense amount of backlash from not only developers, but from gamers as well.

However, if they continue to develop UWP and address it's shortcomings, plus open it up to other content providers, then it could be a worthy replacement for Win32.

Despite what the Msoft haters say, UWP does have some nice advantages.

 

[Dahak]

But how is this any different than EA sadly not releasing their games on Steam for the past 4 years or so and only having it available on Origin?

At least with origin you still have the options that are missing out of the UWP, it sli/crossfire support, v-sync etc

But if, and it's a big if, Msoft eventually tries to wither away Win32 and make UWP the sole platform for Windows development, then yeah, that's a big problem.

I think that is the fear

 

[Anteaus]

The problem with this conversation is some of us are looking at the business practices of MS and what it means down the road and some of us are only looking at the near future. Once upon a time some of us couldn't fathom a day where PC gaming would be distributed almost entirely online.

The types of changes some of us are describing are incrementalist in nature and will take place over the next 5-10 years. All it would take down the road is for MS to make some later version of DirectX exclusive to UWP. They won't outright force developers to go that route, but they will make it annoying enough that they will play ball. They have already proven that they have no problem doing that type of thing. Want DirectX12? Hello Windows 10.

It does sound a bit conspiratorial, but if you take a look at the chess pieces you'll get the picture.

 

[Carfax83]

They have already proven that they have no problem doing that type of thing. Want DirectX12? Hello Windows 10.

FYI DX12 is tied to Windows 10 because of the driver model. It could feasibly be implemented in older operating systems like Windows 7, but what would be the point if you have to do deep kernel level changes to update the driver model?

By the time you get done, Windows 7 would be a different beast altogether.

 

[sweenish]

Want DirectX12? Hello Windows 10.

Are we seriously pretending like this is a new thing? DX10 much?

Everyone had a fit, and then once drivers settled down, it didn't matter anymore. Time marches on.

 

[Game_dev]

Are we seriously pretending like this is a new thing? DX10 much?

Everyone had a fit, and then once drivers settled down, it didn't matter anymore. Time marches on.

Most people seem happy buying a new video card every 2 years, but they want to use a 10 year old OS.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Most people seem happy buying a new video card every 2 years, but they want to use a 10 year old OS.

And replacing a video card is not at all comparable to replacing an OS. You are starting a trend here.

 

[Silverforce11]

This is a stupid fear mongering to a non-issue.

Firstly, DX12 works in Win 10. You do not need a UWP app to use DX12.

Window's Store is just a distribution platform. It's got its ecosystem, just like Valve has with Steam overlays, trading cards, social, etc.

Nobody is forced to ONLY release games for DX12 to the Window Store for it to work. You can build it DX12, release it anywhere you want, in .exe format.

Microsoft's games like Gears or Quantum, they can release it where they want, because they own it. If they want it exclusive, then so be it. Consoles have had exclusivity for decades.

If you don't like it, don't buy it and don't play it.

And if EPIC has issues with it, I hope to see them push Vulkan and put their words into actions.