EPA to raise gas prices while the econmy is still bad

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Obama's EPA wants to put the brakes on the economic recovery:

The Environmental Protection Agency is planning to unveil a proposal that aims to clean up gasoline and automobile emissions, a plan officials say will lead to cleaner air but also higher gas prices.

The so-called Tier 3 standards would reduce sulfur in gasoline by more than 60 percent and reduce nitrogen oxides by 80 percent, by expanding across the country a standard already in place in California. It would go into effect in 2017.

The oil industry, Republicans and some Democrats have pressed the EPA to delay the rule, saying it would be unwise to impose such a standard while many are still struggling in a bad economy. An oil industry study says the rule could increase gasoline prices by 6 to 9 cents per gallon.

The EPA says the potential increase in gas prices would be slight, estimating the rules could increase gas prices by less than a penny per gallon and add $130 to the cost of a vehicle in 2025.


But the head of American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers, Charles Drevna, said in an interview Thursday that the refiners' group was still unclear on the motives behind the agency's regulation, since refining companies have already spent $10 billion to reduce sulfur by 90 percent. The additional cuts, while smaller, will cost just as much, Drevna said, and the energy needed for the additional refining could actually increase carbon pollution by 1 to 2 percent.

"I haven't seen an EPA rule on fuels that has come out since 1995 that hasn't said it would cost only a penny or two more," Drevna said.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...llution-that-critics-say-would/#ixzz2OwbHYvhf
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
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I see a lot of conservatives when talking about the reducing spending referring to "kicking the can down the road" when liberals say it's you shouldn't drastically cut spending during a weak economy. Well we also can't just kick the can down the road when it comes to protecting the environment. Now obviously the EPA has a vested interest in implementing these rules without regard to the cost and the oil companies have an interest in maximizing profits regardless of environmental impact.

And of course conservatives will constantly gripe about investment in green energy by the administration conveniently ignoring that only 5% of the green companies that got money from the government went bankrupt.

How about the oil companies come back with a counter idea of what they feel can be done and a reasonable timeline for it?
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
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Wait - you expect the entire gasoline industry to do nothing until the day they have to meet the rules and then POOF they magically change all their gasoline.


Durrrr.....

What incentive do they have to do it prior to the rule taking effect?
 
Apr 27, 2012
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The EPA must be abolished and the government should stay out of the oil and gas industry. Its because of the government that gas prices are so high.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
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The EPA must be abolished and the government should stay out of the oil and gas industry. Its because of the government that gas prices are so high.

Yeah, screw the environment, no regulations or enforcements, I want more oil spills, polluted rivers and air, and random gas and oil line fires!

Also, gas is high because of OPEC and market manipulation. The cost added on by government is actually exceedingly low.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Yeah, screw the environment, no regulations or enforcements, I want more oil spills, polluted rivers and air, and random gas and oil line fires!

Also, gas is high because of OPEC and market manipulation. The cost added on by government is actually exceedingly low.

Finally we can agree on something!:D
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
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Also, gas is high because of OPEC and market manipulation. The cost added on by government is actually exceedingly low.

So as long as the tax increases below some level that OPEC/market manipulation is increasing, you are OK with it? As long as tax is less than half(ish) the total cost, its ok? Not sure what you were trying to say.

This may just be another example of why incrementalism followed by tolerance will be the death of this nation.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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The EPA must be abolished and the government should stay out of the oil and gas industry. Its because of the government that gas prices are so high.

Yeah, the EPA has done such horrible things for this country. They have cleaned up innumerable lakes and rivers from private companies who will do whatever they can to skirt laws and dump pollutants everywhere.

Gas prices are high due to the continued rampant speculation, lack of refineries because of NIMBY and continued tightness in the energy market (least).
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Yeah, the EPA has done such horrible things for this country. They have cleaned up innumerable lakes and rivers from private companies who will do whatever they can to skirt laws and dump pollutants everywhere.

Gas prices are high due to the continued rampant speculation, lack of refineries because of NIMBY and continued tightness in the energy market (least).

I agree that epa has done horrible things for this country. We would be much better off without it.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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What incentive do they have to do it prior to the rule taking effect?

The incentive is that it is impossible to implement the rule the moment it comes into effect - one must prepare for it. Refineries must be upgraded, cars must be designed. On and on.

These things can all happen in the snap of a finger.
 

Dr. Detroit

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2004
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So long as 1.5 billion in China are burning raw coal to heat there homes - same goes for the pollution in India why should the US do anything more? Our standards are some of if not the highest in the world.

Those countries need to get on board - nothing we do in the USA will make a dent in the overall pollution in the world - climate change - while you have the smog you do in China/India and other developing nations.

China smog is affecting California heavily - http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/12/01/california-pollution-made-in-china/

We should not relax standards but having a runaway ideological EPA does the US no good.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
This will be quite beneficial for the company for whom I work, they made several billion on the additional equipment required to produce Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. This change will result in the refineries purchasing more equipment/specialized catalyst running them billions more.

I don't see how gas prices will only increase $0.01/gal, diesel prices increased quite a bit and still is today to cover the cost of upgrading the refining process.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
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The biggest problem for this is that it will be nearly impossible for refineries to meet the newest individual batch requirements with certain types of crude. A lot of the final product requirements in the past have been met with blending, but this can't be done if the individual batches in the blend don't meet the new requirements.

The first round of sulfur rules I think met the intent of the clean air act and really did clean up a lot of bad air pollution. This new rule is going to hamstring a lot of refineries running sour crude. The individual batch rule is completely asinine if ultimately they can blend it to meet final requirements, but you can't expect critical thinking in government I suppose.

Btw, comparison to china/india are kind of pointless as this rule is for USA air quality and how the rest of the world handles their air pollution doesn't much effect our local air quality.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
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I don't have much opinion on the article, but I want to say fuck the EPA, too. We should model after China! Their lakes and air are just fine.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,112
1,587
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The incentive is that it is impossible to implement the rule the moment it comes into effect - one must prepare for it. Refineries must be upgraded, cars must be designed. On and on.

These things can all happen in the snap of a finger.

Yeah, it's not that the when the rule goes into effect then companies will have to upgrade. It's that when the rule goes into effect is the deadline by which they have to be compliant. So they would have to start soon.

And to the point someone made about India and China, it would be fantastic if we could force them to meet better standards, but we don't have that control. And just because someone else is worse than us doesn't mean we can't strive to be better still.
 

Juror No. 8

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
1,108
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Yeah, screw the environment, no regulations or enforcements, I want more oil spills, polluted rivers and air, and random gas and oil line fires!

Hey, Einstein, we have oil spills, polluted rivers and air, and random gas and oil line fires EVEN WITH A GOVERNMENT AND MOUNTAINS OF REGULATIONS IN PLACE!

Reality shows that government doesn't solve that problem! LOL!
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,546
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This will be quite beneficial for the company for whom I work, they made several billion on the additional equipment required to produce Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. This change will result in the refineries purchasing more equipment/specialized catalyst running them billions more.

I don't see how gas prices will only increase $0.01/gal, diesel prices increased quite a bit and still is today to cover the cost of upgrading the refining process.

There is more pro than con to this new reg.

The oil industry is basically pitching a fit to protect 16 refineries that would need extensive upgrades. The other ones only need minor updates or are already compliant.

Its very much the same reaction the coal industry had to the coal power rules that were decades in the making, they whined because of its effect on a handful of coal plants.
 
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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,546
1,124
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Hey, Einstein, we have oil spills, polluted rivers and air, and random gas and oil line fires EVEN WITH A GOVERNMENT AND MOUNTAINS OF REGULATIONS IN PLACE!

Reality shows that government doesn't solve that problem! LOL!

History and reality shows that govt regulation has MASSIVELY improved environmental quality.
 

Juror No. 8

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
1,108
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History and reality shows that govt regulation has MASSIVELY improved environmental quality.

Not really. For instance, the two largest oil spills in U.S. history, by far, occurred after the creation of the EPA.

Yeah, those regulations are working great!