Environmental Science question

[SarcasticDwarf]

I'm writing a paper on nonpoint source water pollution in my state and was using this (the table about two screens down) as a kind of framework. Now, one thing I noticed is that they list landfills in the righthand column. From my idea of NPS, that seems like it might not fall under the definition. Is anyone here knowledgeable in this area?

 

[bonkers325]

NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

 

[bonkers325]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: bonkers325

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

Yeah. I probably should have made it a more specific topic, but oh well. Right now I think I will just be going through all the sources listed at the link above and saying how they apply to the state (how common, what incidents have occured, what is being done). That should give me enough. Unfortunately, it is a bit of a dark topic in regards to research. There are lots of 1 page summaries on the overall topic, and lots of 250 page reports on very speicific aspects (which I might devote a paragraph or two at most to), but little in between. And I just got done with my part on CSOs, so yeah, I can see that. I think I will go back and rewrite the initial definition.

 

[weeber]

I'm an environmental engineer and have done some industrial landfill work. In an ideal world, landfills would be point sources with all the rain water falling onto the landfill and leachate generated within the landfill being collected, treated, and discharged at a single point.

However, that is rarely the case. Stormwater will flow over the landfill, pickup contaminants and have overland flow into a nearby river or stream. This overland flow can be large in area, so it's not point source. You also have leachate, which is water from within the waste that compresses out or stormwater that infiltrates the landfill and seeps through the waste. This can be full on contaminants and can enter the groundwater. The groundwater will then travel a long distance until in pops out in a spring or enters a surface water body. Obviously this is not point source.

Of course, a well-designed and maintained landfill minimizes all of these concerns, but it definitely an issue with older landfills.

 

[bonkers325]

get the definition of NPS from your state EPA website, then narrow that definition to your liking and write about that specific sub-definition

 

[WildHorse]

Just because nobody's responding to your OP, I'll give you a comment, as my contribution for Gaia mother Earth today, Earth Day.

I could see landfills as nonpoint pollution sources like this:

The industrial liquid chemical waste and non-incinerated biohazard waste mixed into some supposedly impermeable clay-bottom landfills can ooze long distances through fissures, over long time periods.

Some landfills in my state used to allow lightly-regulated ?codisposal? but I don't know if they still do under RCRA. Codisposal considered typical residential waste as a ?sponge? into which liquid hazardous chemical waste was mixed. Examples are: BKK dump in West Covina California. Another is a landfill near Calabasas, CA where 101 freeway meets Malibu Canyon. Another was a landfill in Palos Verdes, CA, now closed.

The oozing material slowly pollutes the water table and the geology along its path. There is no effective ?clean up,? the environmental damage can not be remedied despite political talk of funding ?clean-up.?

Example: the beach where Malibu Creek meets the sea has been closed due to dangerous pollution from ?undetermined sources?, but that's downflow of the Calabasas landfill which contains major quantities of liquid hazardous chemical waste. Note that it's about 15 miles away. Implication: the water table and pores in the subterranean rocks all along Malibu Canyon (Las Virgenes Rd) is probably contaminated forever by ooze from Calabasas dump.

Another example: the most polluted ocean water in Santa Barbara County is at the beach downstream of Tajiguas landfill, a mile inland, in rural undeveloped horse country. Same story as above.

Another example is the Casmalia dump in Santa Barbara county, where the supposedly impermeable clay-bottom dump for liquid hazardous waste has resulted in lots of environmental tragedies over a wide area, including unusually high cancer rates in nearby Casmalia.

It can't be conclusively proved (at the moment) that the landfills are the cause, but all indicators point to them as the NPS, polluting the pores in the subterranean rocks and the water table for long distances downstream, forever. Political blather about ?clean up? is just about money.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: weeber
I'm an environmental engineer and have done some industrial landfill work. In an ideal world, landfills would be point sources with all the rain water falling onto the landfill and leachate generated within the landfill being collected, treated, and discharged at a single point.

However, that is rarely the case. Stormwater will flow over the landfill, pickup contaminants and have overland flow into a nearby river or stream. This overland flow can be large in area, so it's not point source. You also have leachate, which is water from within the waste that compresses out or stormwater that infiltrates the landfill and seeps through the waste. This can be full on contaminants and can enter the groundwater. The groundwater will then travel a long distance until in pops out in a spring or enters a surface water body. Obviously this is not point source.

Of course, a well-designed and maintained landfill minimizes all of these concerns, but it definitely an issue with older landfills.

Thanks for that info, that explains things a bit better than anything else out there.

 

[weeber]

Originally posted by: bonkers325

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

Umm, hate to disagree here, but as far as I know this is incorrect. This is one link I found on Google (there are others) that have listed CSOs as point source discharges.

Here

"Combined Sewer Overflows (CSO's) - A combined sewer conveys both sanitary waste and storm water through a single pipe system to a wastewater treatment facility. During heavy rainfall events, the flow in the combined sewer system exceeds the capacity of the wastewater treatment plant. To prevent overloading the wastewater treatment plant, a number of overflow points have been constructed on the combined system throughout Muncie. Muncie has 25 overflow points or CSO's located along the river. Collectively, the sewer collection system and treatment plant are known as Publicly Owned Treatment Works (POTW). CSO discharges are point sources of pollution subject to the National Pollution Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit which means that Muncie is responsible for any polluted matter entering the river from the 25 CSO's."

SarcasticDwarf, for all intents and purposes, your initial understanding is correct. If a discharge comes out of a pipe or a location that is easily identified then it's point source.

 

[Caesar]

Originally posted by: bonkers325

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

For a waterbody CSOs are point sources even thoug they originate as a non-point source (overflows).

Edit: Remember to view it by asking what kind of source is it to the recipient body

 

[Caesar]

Originally posted by: weeber

Originally posted by: bonkers325

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

Umm, hate to disagree here, but as far as I know this is incorrect. This is one link I found on Google (there are others) that have listed CSOs as point source discharges.

Here

"Combined Sewer Overflows (CSO's) - A combined sewer conveys both sanitary waste and storm water through a single pipe system to a wastewater treatment facility. During heavy rainfall events, the flow in the combined sewer system exceeds the capacity of the wastewater treatment plant. To prevent overloading the wastewater treatment plant, a number of overflow points have been constructed on the combined system throughout Muncie. Muncie has 25 overflow points or CSO's located along the river. Collectively, the sewer collection system and treatment plant are known as Publicly Owned Treatment Works (POTW). CSO discharges are point sources of pollution subject to the National Pollution Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permit which means that Muncie is responsible for any polluted matter entering the river from the 25 CSO's."

SarcasticDwarf, for all intents and purposes, your initial understanding is correct. If a discharge comes out of a pipe or a location that is easily identified then it's point source.

Yes. For simplicity just imagine how a pullutant enters a waterbody. If its entry can be represented by a point successfully then its a point source else not. Any surface runoff, groundwater seepage etc cannot be repersented by a point (distrubuted sources) and thus become an NPS.

As for landfills, they are NPS because they enter the waterbody through runoffs, groundwater.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: CaesaR

Originally posted by: bonkers325

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: bonkers325
NPS is usually defined as any source of pollution that is related to stormwater discharge (i.e. lawn runoff, combined sewer overflows)

landfills are NPS because they are only contribute pollution during rainfall events

Ah, that would explain it. The definitions I have seen say any source of pollution from diffuse sources (not coming out of a pipe or such) which would seem to suggest they do not belong. Thanks.


ugg, only about 19 more pages to write. *cries in corner*

combined sewer overflows (CSO) happen during high rainfall intensity events and are discharged through pipes, so that definition isn't entirely accurate. 19 pages on NPS is a piece of cake. you can go pretty in-depth on best management practices for reducing non point source pollution in cities

For a waterbody CSOs are point sources even thoug they originate as a non-point source (overflows).

I think that overall I would agree that they are point source, but from what I have dug through on the EPA website, they are listed as nps. So I guess I will just follow along with what they say.

 

[weeber]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


I think that overall I would agree that they are point source, but from what I have dug through on the EPA website, they are listed as nps. So I guess I will just follow along with what they say.

Just for my own edification, can you tell me where you found this? When I looked through the EPA site just now, here's what I found.

EPA issued a National Combined Sewer Overflow Control Strategy on August 10, 1989 (EPA, 1989). This strategy reaffirmed that CSOs are point-source discharges subject to NPDES permit and the CWA requirements. The strategy recommended that all CSOs be identified and categorized according to their status of compliance with these requirements. It also set forth three objectives: ensure that if CSOs occur, they are only as a result of wet weather; bring all weather CSO discharge points (wet weather and dry weather) into compliance with the technology-based and water quality-based requirements of the CWA; and minimize the impacts of CSO on water quality, aquatic biota, and human health. In addition, the CSO Strategy charged all states to develop permitting strategies designed to reduce, eliminate, or control CSO.

Link

Granted it may be out-dated, so maybe the changed their ruling.

 

[Caesar]

Originally posted by: weeber

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


I think that overall I would agree that they are point source, but from what I have dug through on the EPA website, they are listed as nps. So I guess I will just follow along with what they say.

Just for my own edification, can you tell me where you found this? When I looked through the EPA site just now, here's what I found.

EPA issued a National Combined Sewer Overflow Control Strategy on August 10, 1989 (EPA, 1989). This strategy reaffirmed that CSOs are point-source discharges subject to NPDES permit and the CWA requirements. The strategy recommended that all CSOs be identified and categorized according to their status of compliance with these requirements. It also set forth three objectives: ensure that if CSOs occur, they are only as a result of wet weather; bring all weather CSO discharge points (wet weather and dry weather) into compliance with the technology-based and water quality-based requirements of the CWA; and minimize the impacts of CSO on water quality, aquatic biota, and human health. In addition, the CSO Strategy charged all states to develop permitting strategies designed to reduce, eliminate, or control CSO.

Link

Granted it may be out-dated, so maybe the changed their ruling.

CSOs are treated as point sources for NPDES permitting because they are entering as point sources to the waterbody (recipient).
They originate as a non-point source (runoffs during storm events, sewage overflows etc). So when looking at environment as a whole they are NPS. They are PS only for the recipient water body and thus the point source NPDES regulations (for rivers etc) apply.

Edit: I do water quality modeling and we always model CSOs as point sources because of this fact.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: weeber

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


I think that overall I would agree that they are point source, but from what I have dug through on the EPA website, they are listed as nps. So I guess I will just follow along with what they say.

Just for my own edification, can you tell me where you found this? When I looked through the EPA site just now, here's what I found.

EPA issued a National Combined Sewer Overflow Control Strategy on August 10, 1989 (EPA, 1989). This strategy reaffirmed that CSOs are point-source discharges subject to NPDES permit and the CWA requirements. The strategy recommended that all CSOs be identified and categorized according to their status of compliance with these requirements. It also set forth three objectives: ensure that if CSOs occur, they are only as a result of wet weather; bring all weather CSO discharge points (wet weather and dry weather) into compliance with the technology-based and water quality-based requirements of the CWA; and minimize the impacts of CSO on water quality, aquatic biota, and human health. In addition, the CSO Strategy charged all states to develop permitting strategies designed to reduce, eliminate, or control CSO.

Link

Granted it may be out-dated, so maybe the changed their ruling.

What I found was in individual documents:
http://www.epa.gov/owow/info/NewsNotes/issue45/nnd45.html
http://www.epa.gov/OWOW/NPS/Ecology/chap6ana.html
etc
From the search, it looked like the actual reports considered it NPS.

 

[weeber]

Originally posted by: CaesaR

Originally posted by: weeber

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


I think that overall I would agree that they are point source, but from what I have dug through on the EPA website, they are listed as nps. So I guess I will just follow along with what they say.

Just for my own edification, can you tell me where you found this? When I looked through the EPA site just now, here's what I found.

EPA issued a National Combined Sewer Overflow Control Strategy on August 10, 1989 (EPA, 1989). This strategy reaffirmed that CSOs are point-source discharges subject to NPDES permit and the CWA requirements. The strategy recommended that all CSOs be identified and categorized according to their status of compliance with these requirements. It also set forth three objectives: ensure that if CSOs occur, they are only as a result of wet weather; bring all weather CSO discharge points (wet weather and dry weather) into compliance with the technology-based and water quality-based requirements of the CWA; and minimize the impacts of CSO on water quality, aquatic biota, and human health. In addition, the CSO Strategy charged all states to develop permitting strategies designed to reduce, eliminate, or control CSO.

Link

Granted it may be out-dated, so maybe the changed their ruling.

CSOs are treated as point sources for NPDES permitting because they are entering as point sources to the waterbody (recipient).
They originate as a non-point source (runoffs during storm events, sewage overflows etc). So when looking at environment as a whole they are NPS. They are PS only for the recipient water body and thus the point source NPDES regulations (for rivers etc) apply.

Edit: I do water quality modeling and we always model CSOs as point sources because of this fact.

Yeah, that' makes sense, in my limited experience with CSOs, they were dealt with as as point source since we only cared about the impact downstream. Never really cared about the upstream side. But when you put it that way, it makes sense that the cause of the overflow is non-point source, I've just never heard non-point source and CSO used together before.

 

[WildHorse]

Originally posted by: weeber
...
Stormwater will flow over the landfill, pickup contaminants and have overland flow into a nearby river or stream. This overland flow can be large in area, so it's not point source. You also have leachate, which is water from within the waste that compresses out or stormwater that infiltrates the landfill and seeps through the waste. This can be full on contaminants and can enter the groundwater. The groundwater will then travel a long distance until in pops out in a spring or enters a surface water body. Obviously this is not point source.

Of course, a well-designed and maintained landfill minimizes all of these concerns, but it definitely an issue with older landfills.

I of course do defer to a professional environmental engineer, but still, my layman's opinion is a bit different than what you expressed.

In Calif the many hazardous waste disposal sites that I visited in my environmental activist days mostly used heavy earthmovers to cover each day's waste with several feet of dirt. Liquid waste was injected by pump deep underground, not flowed onto the surface.

Under this practice, it's difficult to see how leachate could rise to the surface to contaminate rainwater. The original deposit of waste is pumped deep, and gravity would carry it deeper.

I could understand contaminants rising to the surface when a gas forms. On a visit to BKK I saw pumpkin-colored orange gas violently erupting up out of the dry ground above a spot where liquid hazardous wastes had accidentally mixed and reacted. No telling what poisons that gas bore, but it didn't look good.

Casmalia dump was the only site I visited that simply pumped liquid hazardous waste into open air lagoons on the surface. In this situation, which I believe (hope!) is atypical, everybody acknowledges that rain did/does carry hazardous contaminants to distant points. You'll find a lot of discussion of the environmental travesty of Casmalia dump on the web.

But I think the majority of NPS contamination originating from hazardous waste dumps must be via subterranean leakage out of the bottom, from what were supposedly impermeable clay substrates but were not.

ed to fix typos