Engine Rebuild Piston Reringing! Ring Ring Ring!

[FuzzyDunlop]

***Changed title to better fit with direction thread is going to head***


Is there a way to test piston rings with the head off the engine?
Can I set all the pistons at mid level, poor a measured amount of oil in each and time how quickly it disappears in each?
Would that work?
Or is it possible?

And another question I might as well throw up here.
How hard is it to change piston rings at the point Im at right now?

 

[SuperSix]

Is there a way to test piston rings with the head off the engine?
Can I set all the pistons at mid level, poor a measured amount of oil in each and time how quickly it disappears in each?
Would that work?
Or is it possible?

And another question I might as well throw up here.
How hard is it to change piston rings at the point Im at right now?

I don't know of any way to do that. Did you do a leakdown test before you pulled the heads?

I suppose you could measure the bore and see how far out it is.

Is there a significant ridge at the top of the piston bore?

At this point, maybe just drop the oil pan, take off the rod caps and pull the pistons.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

I don't know of any way to do that. Did you do a leakdown test before you pulled the heads?

I suppose you could measure the bore and see how far out it is.

Is there a significant ridge at the top of the piston bore?

At this point, maybe just drop the oil pan, take off the rod caps and pull the pistons.

yup. Someone from my local tuners forum gave me a piece of advice

if the engine has some miles on it, this is another way, if there is a even coat of carbon on the piston top, the rings should be ok...if at 12 or 6 oclock the piston top is washed, the rings are junk!

^^ Junk.

Looks like Ill be pulling the pistons.
crap. should have just planned an all out engine rebuild from day one.
Oh well, its only money and time, right.

 

[SuperSix]

The next step in your auto edjumication

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

The next step in your auto edjumication

ayup. A few more hours of youtube to figure this one out. Doesnt look too too hard.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

so
list of parts needed
-Piston Rings
-Connecting Rob Bearings
-Assembly Lube
-Tool to re-install pistons after reringing. ring ring ring!
-ft/lb Torgue wrench - *PURCHASED*

Do I need new bolts at the bottom of the rods? What else am I missing?

other parts that will go on at same time...
-Head gasket
-Intake Gasket set
-Exhaust Gasket
-Valve seals
-Camshaft Seals
-Cylinder head bolts
-Motor Mounts
-Shift Links

 

[exdeath]

Eh.. you can't just drop new rings in like a hose or belt. The block has to be ridge reamed, bored, honed, etc. At the very least, reamed and honed, but it would suck to go through that trouble and still have issues because of oblong bores or something and need to buy all new rings, gaskets, etc again. Do it right the first time. BTW 12 and 6 on the piston per your picture are also the thrust sides where the rod is pushing the rocking piston against the cylinder walls causing oblong wear in the bores over time. Natural and unavoidable aging process of engines. So it could be rings or oval bores or both.

While there are crappy hand tools for quickly cross hatching bores, you're really better off just having the block redone (line bore, decked, torque plate bored and honed, etc.) Professional machine work is pretty cheap, and probably less or the same as buying all the hand tools to do 1/10th as good a job yourself.

And you'll have about 10 lbs of weight reduction from removal of caked on grease and dirt when the block is cleaned up

Pull the shortblock out, strip to the bare block, send in for cleaning and machining along with the head.

Better off doing a freshened bottom end at this point with new bearings, refinished pistons and crank, etc. The machine work is just a couple hundred bucks and new rod and crank bearings not even that. Drop off the crank, rods, pistons to be cleaned up and balanced at the shop that does your block. And make sure your rod and crank bearing caps are numbered and oriented front to back in the same way they come off.

Also when doing engine assembly, I prefer a high quality (eg: Snap On) beam style torque wrench. I wouldn't trust a $5 Chinese clicker on engine internals, I've stripped and broken enough unimportant crap at the proper torque setting before the wrench ever clicked, and here you are dealing with things like bearing oil clearance in the .001" range.

If you are doing the head too, do valve guides and don't forget things like valve buckets/shims which need to be measured and are unique per valve (within some step size like .005" that Toyota sells them).

Honestly I was waiting for this part :awe: I'm not much for paint, body, and welding, but I could do engines and wiring all day long!

 

[Pulsar]

Eh.. you can't just drop new rings in like a hose or belt. The block has to be ridge reamed, bored, honed, etc. At the very least, reamed and honed, but it would suck to go through that trouble and still have issues because of oblong bores or something and need to buy all new rings, gaskets, etc again. Do it right the first time. BTW 12 and 6 on the piston per your picture are also the thrust sides where the rod is pushing the rocking piston against the cylinder walls causing oblong wear in the bores over time. Natural and unavoidable aging process of engines. So it could be rings or oval bores or both.

While there are crappy hand tools for quickly cross hatching bores, you're really better off just having the block redone (line bore, decked, torque plate bored and honed, etc.) Professional machine work is pretty cheap, and probably less or the same as buying all the hand tools to do 1/10th as good a job yourself.

And you'll have about 10 lbs of weight reduction from removal of caked on grease and dirt when the block is cleaned up

Pull the shortblock out, strip to the bare block, send in for cleaning and machining along with the head.

Better off doing a freshened bottom end at this point with new bearings, refinished pistons and crank, etc. The machine work is just a couple hundred bucks and new rod and crank bearings not even that. Drop off the crank, rods, pistons to be cleaned up and balanced at the shop that does your block. And make sure your rod and crank bearing caps are numbered and oriented front to back in the same way they come off.

Also when doing engine assembly, I prefer a high quality (eg: Snap On) beam style torque wrench. I wouldn't trust a $5 Chinese clicker on engine internals, I've stripped and broken enough unimportant crap at the proper torque setting before the wrench ever clicked, and here you are dealing with things like bearing oil clearance in the .001" range.

If you are doing the head too, do valve guides and don't forget things like valve buckets/shims which need to be measured and are unique per valve (within some step size like .005" that Toyota sells them).

Honestly I was waiting for this part :awe: I'm not much for paint, body, and welding, but I could do engines and wiring all day long!

One correction. We're now holding tolerances to +/- .010 mm (+/- .0004")

 

[exdeath]

One correction. We're now holding tolerances to +/- .010 mm (+/- .0004")

:awe:

Probably not on a 1986 Toyota. And just stresses my point about Chinese click torque wrenches for building engines.

 

[Howard]

One correction. We're now holding tolerances to +/- .010 mm (+/- .0004")

Cylindricity or total runout?

 

[SuperSix]

Yep - piston rings and bearings aren't a drop in. Well stated above.

Ask me, my GN motor is at the machine shop right now. Quite a bit more work being done, and it's costing 2400.00.

A basic block check etc won't cost near as much. As far as the connecting rod bolts and main cap bolts - *I* would replace them - if you don't want to do that - you need to find out if they are TTY (Torque to yield). If they are, you HAVE to replace them, they are single use.

http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87 Grand National/Repair pics/Short block 0814/

http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z337/Supersix231/87 Grand National/Repair pics/

 

[exdeath]

Cylindricity or total runout?

Journal bearing clearance for oil. eg: plastigage. No way cylinder clearance is measured in .0004" lol.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Wow. Thanks for the input guys.

This project is turning into something WAY bigger than I was originally planning. Stripping down the block shouldnt take too long. I'm half done that already.

Yeah. I guess this is my plan.
- Rebuild this 4AGE engine, forget about an engine swap at this point. Edjumacate myself with this build so that I can plan something bigger for the future. AND when its all said and done I should have more power out of this engine because it would be working properly, eh?

If you can think of things to add to my parts list, do tell.

 

[alkemyst]

Eh.. you can't just drop new rings in like a hose or belt. The block has to be ridge reamed, bored, honed, etc. At the very least, reamed and honed, but it would suck to go through that trouble and still have issues because of oblong bores or something and need to buy all new rings, gaskets, etc again. Do it right the first time. BTW 12 and 6 on the piston per your picture are also the thrust sides where the rod is pushing the rocking piston against the cylinder walls causing oblong wear in the bores over time. Natural and unavoidable aging process of engines. So it could be rings or oval bores or both.

While there are crappy hand tools for quickly cross hatching bores, you're really better off just having the block redone (line bore, decked, torque plate bored and honed, etc.) Professional machine work is pretty cheap, and probably less or the same as buying all the hand tools to do 1/10th as good a job yourself.

And you'll have about 10 lbs of weight reduction from removal of caked on grease and dirt when the block is cleaned up

Pull the shortblock out, strip to the bare block, send in for cleaning and machining along with the head.

Better off doing a freshened bottom end at this point with new bearings, refinished pistons and crank, etc. The machine work is just a couple hundred bucks and new rod and crank bearings not even that. Drop off the crank, rods, pistons to be cleaned up and balanced at the shop that does your block. And make sure your rod and crank bearing caps are numbered and oriented front to back in the same way they come off.

Also when doing engine assembly, I prefer a high quality (eg: Snap On) beam style torque wrench. I wouldn't trust a $5 Chinese clicker on engine internals, I've stripped and broken enough unimportant crap at the proper torque setting before the wrench ever clicked, and here you are dealing with things like bearing oil clearance in the .001" range.

If you are doing the head too, do valve guides and don't forget things like valve buckets/shims which need to be measured and are unique per valve (within some step size like .005" that Toyota sells them).

Honestly I was waiting for this part :awe: I'm not much for paint, body, and welding, but I could do engines and wiring all day long!

This is sound advice. In reality if you have the pistons out of the engine, it probably would be prudent to just pull the whole thing and drop it off at a machine shop. It's pretty cheap to get the basics done for you as long as you are doing all the breakdown and re-assembly.

That said...to others out there buying nice rebuild kits. It really pays to just drop it all off at the machine shop to let them do both the machining and reassembly. With stock parts or second jobs after the main expense is done; then dealing with plastigage and all that is more economical.

I have known a lot of guys that have done a ton of tool work only to be screwed with an engine rebuild they had no clue they made mistakes on.

Also make sure any of the bolts you removed are "ok" to reuse. Many times they are not and even if you properly retorque them you will face issues.

I also agree that the clicker style torque wrenches are awesome they really aren't 'better' than a beam style (of course with any wrench being calibrated). I don't own a beam style, but I have used many high end clickers and so far out of 20+ years and maybe 200 jobs or more, have had a fastener break due to a "no click" situation. I have learned to do 2-5+ torque steps...the main problem is at high torques it's really hard to judge if you are looking at a failure. The main issue is a clicker must move through a certain range of motion and sometimes if you short it the wrench never is ready for the next reading.

I am sure many here know that deep gut feeling of a 2 hour project turning into 10+...

 

[alkemyst]

Journal bearing clearance for oil. eg: plastigage. No way cylinder clearance is measured in .0004" lol.

That is probably someone reading a metric measurement as SAE ...

I have seen that happen.

 

[alkemyst]

Fuzzy, have you posted this up on a forum specific to your vehicle. Those guys will usually know all the fine details and bang for buck methods to make your project go smooth.

For make/model general discussion I prefer a general forum rather than facing the bias a vehicle-specific one brings...but for technical knowledge those specific forums can't be beat (most of the time...with my Saturn and Nissan there are many people making 'great' posts only to just be armchair mechanics and telling stories).

 

[Pulsar]

Journal bearing clearance for oil. eg: plastigage. No way cylinder clearance is measured in .0004" lol.

Diameters of both the cylinder bores and crankbores, along with cylindricity at 6 points top to bottom of the cylinders. Non-contact air gages for measurement.

Not clearance - sorry I gave that impression.

 

[soccerballtux]

yup. Someone from my local tuners forum gave me a piece of advice

^^ Junk.

Looks like Ill be pulling the pistons.
crap. should have just planned an all out engine rebuild from day one.
Oh well, its only money and time, right.

looks nasty but does it really matter? How does this affect performance?

personally at this point I'd say screw it and drive it for 6 months to a year until I get bored again. That black stuff, uh, insulates the piston head letting you boost higher

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Fuzzy, have you posted this up on a forum specific to your vehicle. Those guys will usually know all the fine details and bang for buck methods to make your project go smooth.

For make/model general discussion I prefer a general forum rather than facing the bias a vehicle-specific one brings...but for technical knowledge those specific forums can't be beat (most of the time...with my Saturn and Nissan there are many people making 'great' posts only to just be armchair mechanics and telling stories).

wow, Alk. Im not used to seeing this side of you. Im confused. I appreciate.

yes, I am posting regularly on MR2OC with this information. To be honest I am posting this on three different forums, accumilating and cross refrencing all the information - this along with talking with a guy that owns an engine rebuild shop here in town (but he admits to not working on many imports).

Damn, I feel like I just admitted to my girlfriend that I am cheating on her. Sorry guys - I mean no offence. ATG is still my 'Home' garage forum.

The MR2OC guys are being slow in response, and I am growing impatient with them. Over there I have to remember to read the name of the poster first, because there are alot of idiots that just post reiterations things they have heard, rather than post from experience: therefore there is alot of misinformation. The few guys that have actual experience have grown impatient and tired of constantly correcting and rarely show up anymore. Its a shame, becuase I read old threads from there and there is solid conversation and few corrections: where as now... lots of idiots, fighting, name calling etc. sad.

One thing has been said a couple of times at other forums: This is only a 100hp engine. Its like a fine tuned sewing machine, but its well built, brick of an engine that can take alot of stress. What a 200 - 300hp engine requires, this engine can often do without.

 

[exdeath]

Diameters of both the cylinder bores and crankbores, along with cylindricity at 6 points top to bottom of the cylinders. Non-contact air gages for measurement.

Not clearance - sorry I gave that impression.

Nah you were correct the first time, you did say tolerance, not clearance. Should have known you were talking about machining precision as in "30 feet within +/- .0004 inches" and not actual gaps between assembled parts.

Thing is I was talking about assembly clearances and you brought up machining tolerances

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

Diameters of both the cylinder bores and crankbores, along with cylindricity at 6 points top to bottom of the cylinders. Non-contact air gauges for measurement.

Not clearance - sorry I gave that impression.

whoooosh!! had to google that one.

 

[Mandres]

One correction. We're now holding tolerances to +/- .010 mm (+/- .0004")

It's amazing how far we've come in manufacturing accuracy.

 

[jlee]

wow, Alk. Im not used to seeing this side of you. Im confused. I appreciate.

yes, I am posting regularly on MR2OC with this information. To be honest I am posting this on three different forums, accumilating and cross refrencing all the information - this along with talking with a guy that owns an engine rebuild shop here in town (but he admits to not working on many imports).

Damn, I feel like I just admitted to my girlfriend that I am cheating on her. Sorry guys - I mean no offence. ATG is still my 'Home' garage forum.

The MR2OC guys are being slow in response, and I am growing impatient with them. Over there I have to remember to read the name of the poster first, because there are alot of idiots that just post reiterations things they have heard, rather than post from experience: therefore there is alot of misinformation. The few guys that have actual experience have grown impatient and tired of constantly correcting and rarely show up anymore. Its a shame, becuase I read old threads from there and there is solid conversation and few corrections: where as now... lots of idiots, fighting, name calling etc. sad.

One thing has been said a couple of times at other forums: This is only a 100hp engine. Its like a fine tuned sewing machine, but its well built, brick of an engine that can take alot of stress. What a 200 - 300hp engine requires, this engine can often do without.

I've noticed the same thing regarding MR2OC, which is quite sad. I find myself now seeing something and thinking hmm, that sounds wrong. After running a search, an old thread will show up with accurate information contradicting what the new people are saying.

It's quite a shame, because there's a lot of knowledge on the board. Unfortunately it's becoming diluted.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

mmMMmm, clean Block, Head, and Crank, mmMMMmm

Where to begin...

Bearings, Crank, Flywheel, Clutch, Oil pressure sensor, Oil Filter Assembly, Oil Pump

I did things a little ass backwards. Due to my limited space in my garage, there really wasnt enought room to have an engine mount, or engine lift. I also left the transmission hanging in the bay when I dropped the block. (for those that may question this method: yes, it was madness, and yes, it was the hard way). So today I only partially assembled the block, then with sweat and tears, and manpower managed to lift the block while under the car and bolt it onto the transmission (I may have cheated and used a couple ropes from the rafters). Was NOT easy.

Then I ReRinged (ring ring ring) the pistons, and plunked them in (using a ring clamp of course)
So this is where I stopped tonight

Tomorrow I want to clean up some of the hoses, and rewrap some of the wire loom. Its a real tangled mess in some places.
The Head is also ready to be put on. I jsut need to find one bolt that has magically gone missing, and buy a new O-ring for the water pump, as the one from my rering kit is too big.

 

[BUTCH1]

Looking good, did the machine shop check the ring lands for excessive wear or are those new pistons?.