energy question: is it possible, i mean, IS THERE ENOUGH sun/wind, that if..

[SunnyD]

There's only one problem with solar/wind power: It's not reliable. Not 100% constant generation 100% of the time, so you'll still need to supplement it with traditional power generation capabilities.

 

[zanejohnson]

We can store power. It is done with large capacitor banks. There are several companies that produce them now. They look like semi-trailers. Inside there are banks of capacitors that can store power for about 8 hours. The issue though is that is all DC power and needs to be converted back to AC and you can only do that with about 90% or so efficiency.

What might need to happen is the USA supporting more DC power in the home. It is a lot easier to deal with when actually using the electricity. DC is used on just about everything in the home except heating and motors.
Some examples.

PC power supplies take in AC output DC 12V,5V,3V, etc , even though just about everything in the pc only uses 1.8V or lower voltages. There is a few conversion steps there that can be cut out to save power . If the supply is 85% efficient then it has to be converted again by the hardware that is 85% efficient that is quite a bit of loss. A single 3VDC jack to power devices would eliminate a lot of loss.

LCD tv and monitors take in AC output DC 12V, 22V, and convert the 12VDC back to 200VAC to power the back lighting. Again the circuitry only uses 3V or less , another unnecessary loss in conversion.

Just about everything in the home that uses a microprocessor converts power to 3V or less so why not supply it that to begin with.

i understand AC/DC power and everything inside of a computer case, prob with DC is distance right? hence why we adopted the alternating current, have we moved past this yet? <---that's a question, im not trying to come off as sarcastic, i really dont know.

 

[Brovane]

so really, we just gotta figure out how to store it...

so what if we had solar all over the world, i mean, we have daylight somewhere always, so theoretically, we could have solar power.. but that's not feasible..at least currently

we just gotta store it, there's gotta be a way...

Storing power raises the cost of electricy by a lot. It would be much more better to construct a better national grid. Solar and Wind are part of the equation but do not complete it. Geothermal and wave power are also important with Hydro power. A big part of it is that Solar and Wind, generation on a large scale require large tracks of land sometimes located far away from where the people need the energy. This requires the construction of high tension power lines. The enviromentalist then come out and tie up the construction of this needed infrastructure to support the new plants.

 

[stargazr]

Oil is always going to be a problem even if it was possible. Energy isn't the only application - i.e. the petrochemical industry.

http://www.priweb.org/ed/pgws/uses/uses_home.html

 

[zanejohnson]

There's only one problem with solar/wind power: It's not reliable. Not 100% constant generation 100% of the time, so you'll still need to supplement it with traditional power generation capabilities.

surely we can develop a method of storing this power for long periods of time right? so that in the unlikely event say, there is clouds for 2 weeks straight, we could be running on a surplus of stored power.. and even if not, surely a number of strategically placed facilities can get around that?

 

[zanejohnson]

Oil is always going to be a problem even if it was possible. Energy isn't the only application - i.e. the petrochemical industry.

http://www.priweb.org/ed/pgws/uses/uses_home.html

ahhh didnt think of that, good point.

 

[Modelworks]

i understand AC/DC power and everything inside of a computer case, prob with DC is distance right? hence why we adopted the alternating current, have we moved past this yet? <---that's a question, im not trying to come off as sarcastic, i really dont know.

The issue with DC is that in order to move large currents you need thicker wiring. An example would be the wire that powers your home now would need to be about as big as your arm to use DC. At lower voltages and shorter distances though DC wiring doesn't have to be large.
AC is great for distance but not for actual usage inside circuits.

 

[zanejohnson]

Storing power raises the cost of electricy by a lot. It would be much more better to construct a better national grid. Solar and Wind are part of the equation but do not complete it. Geothermal and wave power are also important with Hydro power. A big part of it is that Solar and Wind, generation on a large scale require large tracks of land sometimes located far away from where the people need the energy. This requires the construction of high tension power lines. The enviromentalist then come out and tie up the construction of this needed infrastructure to support the new plants.

i see...

really and truly, it's like everyone acts like we have NO ALTERNATIVE to oil.. but really, this is the stuff we need to be dumping THE MOST money into, this is important stuff, and the quicker we find the alternative, the quicker all the money invested will pay for itself, we wont be dependent on ANYONE, shit i dunno, i just dont understand why this isn't like the biggest issue out there..

 

[lxskllr]

I think you're trivializing the engineering hurdles that that have to be surmounted. I think it's absolutely possible to harness nature, and use it for 100&#37; of our power needs, just not now.

Who the hell knows what 200 years will bring? who thought we'd be invisibly powering houses with heat and light 200 years before electricity? Who thought we'd be creating heat with unseen particles 200 years before nuclear?

We may be drawing power from other universes in 200 years. If someone knew what we'd be doing then, we'd be doing it now ;^)

 

[zanejohnson]

The issue with DC is that in order to move large currents you need thicker wiring. An example would be the wire that powers your home now would need to be about as big as your arm to use DC. At lower voltages and shorter distances though DC wiring doesn't have to be large.
AC is great for distance but not for actual usage inside circuits.

right because AC uses higher voltage, but less amps to create the same wattage, i see...

 

[Modelworks]

It would be much more better to construct a better national grid.

This is something I am really concerned about. Our national grid is in terrible shape and 2012 is expected to set records for solar flare activity . If that happens I can see a lot of blackouts. Our grid has gone down many times from solar activity in the past and it isn't getting better.

Stock up on batteries folks !

 

[zanejohnson]

lets see, say i need 1000 watts to run something...

12 x A = 1000w

or 110 x A = 1000W

 

[Modelworks]

lets see, say i need 1000 watts to run something...

12 x A = 1000w

or 110 x A = 1000W

1000Watts / 12V = 83.33 A

 

[Ichinisan]

This is why I don't think it's possible to get enough solar energy:

OK, so you're up north and it's extremely cold. The sun is up. You paint your house black so it absorbs as much heat as possible from the sun.

You're still cold.

Now, instead of converting that solar energy directly into heat, let's put up a giant solar panel with the same surface area of your house. It only converts a tiny fraction of the sun's energy into electricity. Even more efficiency is lost when you convert the electricity into heat. You'd literally get more heat by stepping outside into the sunlight. Yet, somehow, you'd have to collect enough energy to last through the night.

This is all assuming you don't use the energy for *anything* except heat.

You'd need a massive solar panel that has far more surface area than the area you're powering.

 

[Brovane]

lets see, say i need 1000 watts to run something...

12 x A = 1000w

or 110 x A = 1000W

Here is a little more detail on the effort required to build large grid size battery backup.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/08/dayintech_0827

This effort was just required to run Fairbanks for 7min to allow backup power sources to turn on.

 

[Modelworks]

This is why I don't think it's possible to get enough solar energy:

OK, so you're up north and it's extremely cold. The sun is up. You paint your house black so it absorbs as much heat as possible from the sun.

I think another approach is required. Electricity has trapped people into thinking along the lines of using it for running everything because it was cheap and easy. How about we cut out the middle man ? Instead of generating electricity to power a motor to pump water , power the pump mechanically directly from the wind like windmills did before electricity.
Need to turn a ceiling fan in a home ? Run a shaft from a wind powered device on the roof, which is how the first ceiling fans actually worked.

Heating is a problem but one that can be solved by burning renewable energy like wood. Wood has the best return for the work put into it for heat.

 

[Brainonska511]

so we need to improve this technology, how hard can it be?

It's not as simple as putting a couple Legos together. There is all sorts of research going on to develop better solar cell technology, but it just won't come overnight.

I think another approach is required. Electricity has trapped people into thinking along the lines of using it for running everything because it was cheap and easy. How about we cut out the middle man ? Instead of generating electricity to power a motor to pump water , power the pump mechanically directly from the wind like windmills did before electricity.
Need to turn a ceiling fan in a home ? Run a shaft from a wind powered device on the roof, which is how the first ceiling fans actually worked.

Heating is a problem but one that can be solved by burning renewable energy like wood. Wood has the best return for the work put into it for heat.

Maybe not go that far back, but conservation is definitely a big thing that many people don't get. There are some here, on this board, that feel since they pay for it, they can leave their AC on all day with all the lights on in their house while they're not home, since they don't care that their increased, wasteful demand, has any effect on total electricity price.

 

[Ichinisan]

Heating is a problem but one that can be solved by burning renewable energy like wood. Wood has the best return for the work put into it for heat.

Yeah, but trees won't replenish fast enough. Remember, that energy in the wood also came from the sun. Burning wood, you're consuming energy even faster than the trees can collect it.

 

[Meghan54]

Yeah, but trees won't replenish fast enough. Remember, that energy in the wood also came from the sun. Burning wood, you're consuming energy even faster than the trees can collect it.

We seem to be replenishing trees more than fast enough for the paper industry. Of course, those are hybrid pines grown in the southeast, so terrible for burning. But while trees do take up to a decade to grow large enough to harvest, it can and is done for some industries.

BTW...there are more trees growing in GA, for instance, than there were when the major tree/paper industries moved out and to the Northwest.....which is one reason they're considering a major move back to the SE US.

 

[sao123]

i suggest we forget power generation all together... we should just harness and store lightning. tomorrow even.

 

[Bignate603]

We can store power. It is done with large capacitor banks. There are several companies that produce them now. They look like semi-trailers. Inside there are banks of capacitors that can store power for about 8 hours. The issue though is that is all DC power and needs to be converted back to AC and you can only do that with about 90&#37; or so efficiency.

What might need to happen is the USA supporting more DC power in the home. It is a lot easier to deal with when actually using the electricity. DC is used on just about everything in the home except heating and motors.
Some examples.

PC power supplies take in AC output DC 12V,5V,3V, etc , even though just about everything in the pc only uses 1.8V or lower voltages. There is a few conversion steps there that can be cut out to save power . If the supply is 85% efficient then it has to be converted again by the hardware that is 85% efficient that is quite a bit of loss. A single 3VDC jack to power devices would eliminate a lot of loss.

LCD tv and monitors take in AC output DC 12V, 22V, and convert the 12VDC back to 200VAC to power the back lighting. Again the circuitry only uses 3V or less , another unnecessary loss in conversion.

Just about everything in the home that uses a microprocessor converts power to 3V or less so why not supply it that to begin with.

i understand AC/DC power and everything inside of a computer case, prob with DC is distance right? hence why we adopted the alternating current, have we moved past this yet? <---that's a question, im not trying to come off as sarcastic, i really dont know.

DC cuts out the losses of conversion at the consumer level but would drastically increase losses during transmission. This is because the higher the voltage in the transmission lines, the less loss there is. It's extremely easy and efficient to step voltage up or down for AC power so they can easily transmit power at very high and efficient voltages then step it down when it gets near your home. On DC it's much harder. If you're using power very close to where it's being generated (like if you're making use of power from your own roof mounted solar panels) the transmission losses would be minimal. If you're like most people though the power is generated far away from your home. Switching to DC in that case would end up being more difficult and would end up being less efficient due to difficulties switching between voltages.

While you can do better with DC if its generated close to where its used you'd have a more difficultly with designing devices. Different devices need different voltages (your oven or vacuum needs different voltages than your ipod charger) so you'd run into the difficulty of changing voltages using DC.

If you're wondering more about this go look up "War of Currents". This was a battle fought a long time ago between Edison and Westinghouse ( who was working with Tesla). AC won, DC lost, and we still haven't found any technology that would make it worthwhile for us to change that.

 

[Gibsons]

DC cuts out the losses of conversion at the consumer level but would drastically increase losses during transmission. This is because the higher the voltage in the transmission lines, the less loss there is. It's extremely easy and efficient to step voltage up or down for AC power so they can easily transmit power at very high and efficient voltages then step it down when it gets near your home. On DC it's much harder. If you're using power very close to where it's being generated (like if you're making use of power from your own roof mounted solar panels) the transmission losses would be minimal. If you're like most people though the power is generated far away from your home. Switching to DC in that case would end up being more difficult and would end up being less efficient due to difficulties switching between voltages.

While you can do better with DC if its generated close to where its used you'd have a more difficultly with designing devices. Different devices need different voltages (your oven or vacuum needs different voltages than your ipod charger) so you'd run into the difficulty of changing voltages using DC.

If you're wondering more about this go look up "War of Currents". This was a battle fought a long time ago between Edison and Westinghouse ( who was working with Tesla). AC won, DC lost, and we still haven't found any technology that would make it worthwhile for us to change that.

One suggestion I've heard is to keep transmission AC, but have all houses wired for DC. Just use one big converter where the line enters the house. Someone would have to figure out the problem with different voltage requirements though.

 

[Patranus]

Surface area would certainly be an issue.
Such construction would certainly have a much more negative impact than nuclear, even with accidents.

 

[soulcougher73]

Solar Shingles on every house in the US. Should help a lot. Would make most if not all houses self sufficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_shingles

 

[silverpig]

One suggestion I've heard is to keep transmission AC, but have all houses wired for DC. Just use one big converter where the line enters the house. Someone would have to figure out the problem with different voltage requirements though.

An even better one is to have the long distance transmission be AC, then turn it into DC within cities and use superconducting DC lines (they are already in commercial operation). Then use regular DC in the home.