Enemies, not Opponents

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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The amount of leadership have seen from him is negligible. That to me is s sign of a weak leader.

This is circular: his "amount of leadership is negligible" is the same as saying "weak leader". Both are bald claims with nothing to back them up.

Leadership is subjective; I have pointed out areas where I felt that he has failed to deliver and had the opportunity.

He came out swinging with grand ideas and whiffed.

Name three.

Not going to rehash what happened over past four years on ;items that he had full control over.
Such as? Specifics, please.
  1. transparency of government
  2. Lobbyists in the WH
  3. Lobbyist access to the WH
  4. Ability to review bills by the public before signature - allow public input.

My POV is that he had been an ineffective leader and had been granted a pass by the country as a whole because he was able to contrast his promises against Bush's record.

Still no specifics.

  1. He has not led the country out of the recession. Policies has increased dependency on the government spending/handouts
  2. He did not reduce the deficit as stated - it has actually increased
  3. He has not pulled the employment back - His policies have created concern by business and sniffled needed growth
The above were things from either campaign #1 or #2.


Now he has his own record to stand on.

But.. you just said he hasn't done anything.
and what has he done - nobody on the Obama side has identified what he has accomplished to move the country forward.

And it is very very tippy. In 4 years, he seems still is unable to accept responsibility for his actions and track record.

Source? Quotes? Anything?
How much time is he spending blaming the Republicans for doing this and that.
the sequester is his doing - he passed the buck to congress to solve the problem; never expecting that they could fail. He wanted one pain pill and now complains about it.


Half his TV time (via sound bites on MSM) are seeming to be bashing the Republicans.

Even if I grant this as rhetorical embellishment, it's flatly not true. Go ahead and try to back it up -- you'll fail miserably.
"It is the Republicans that have create this problem!"
"t is the Republicans that want to harm (fill in the blank) rather than accept a tax increase"

"It is the Republicans this and that whenever anything happens."

I am surprised that he does not blame the Republicans for Sandy :p

Sound familiar :confused:

He seems to not realize, he won the election; stop trying to blame and start the healing.

What does that mean "start the healing"?
He still is blaming the Republicans and wants everything his way.
You can blame the Republican for doing their job. His job is to find a solution/compromise
Rather than find a solution; he acts content to look for failure.


Heal what? How?

The Great Depression did not last 10 years.
FDR realized something needed to get done and he got it done.

The war got him out of the depression.

Obama's actions may or may not have stopped us from having another one.

All I hear in your anti-Obama posts is vague demagoguery of the sort I hear daily from talk radio hosts. No facts, no arguments, no substance.

It's clear you just despise the guy because you despise the guy. You have nothing to support your claims..

I despise the guy because I expect him to be a man of his word.
When a lobbyist shows up in the WH staff.
When the average person is harassed by the government w/ respect to taxes and then he has a tax avoider for years appointed to the highest $$ position.
When he pushed through a bill in the we hours of morning that is full of TBDs and states "trust me"

He claims that he did not know what was going on in the government; BS - he was a US Senator - he knew how things worked;
He sold a bill of goods to the people with an empty promise of change/trust in me.

Fool me once ; good for you
Fool me twice - failure is me.


Even still his people are using the sequester as FUD - not telling the truth to the country.
Example:
WH statements
Layoffs of 40K public sector teachers.
Fact:
At this point, no teacher is getting a pink slip due to the sequester.
HeadStart is having to shuffle around because the government has not delivered funding previously - unrelated to the sequester.
 
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Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,901
4,927
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The tea party claims to be about less government. But if politicians were all about doing the things they were saying America would be a very different place. They aren't a party of less government. They're a party of trying to serve their elite overlords while trying to sell us on voting against our own interests. The Democrats engage in a lot of wasteful spending as well. But not even they are so outrageous as to pass themselves off as the fiscally responsible party. At least own up to the insanity.

Where is the "less government" in widely expanding the military budget despite already spending more than the next 10 countries combined? The money wouldn't even go to our soldiers. For that matter the money would hardly even go towards making us a more powerful military, it would just go towards contractors that try to drive up costs every step of the way for personal profit. A million to a Tea Party members campaign can easily translate into tens of millions in lucrative contracts.

Where is the "less government" when it comes to corporations making a business model of paying their employees so little that the government pays the other half of their employees livelihoods with healthcare and foodstamps? If the government simply did away with food stamps the corporations would be on the pinch to pay their people a higher living wage to survive, the last thing the tea party wants.

This is the same Tea Party that wants to lower those top individuals taxes. Corporations want to eat their cake and have it to. They don't want to pay any taxes, but want the full benefits of a government that will help keep their grunts fed and cared for at no expense to themselves. They want a government that will pave roads and maintain an infrastructure that helps them in getting their products to costumers but want no ownership in the costs of maintaining said infrastructure. I don't see any member of the Tea Party campaigning for tax cuts calling out their overlords on their hypocrisy.

I don't see any Tea Party members calling out the 7 billion dollars in tax payer money going to "poor old" big oil to fix their equipment for them at tax payer expense. One imagines a party of less government would have the audacity to expect a very lucrative company to cover it's own costs of doing business. Instead when that funding is threatened, they dig their heels in tight.

That's just the fiscal end of it. As far as social issues are concerned, the Tea Party are among the most outspoken. Whether or not you agree with abortion, a party that prides itself on focusing on "less government" would not be so focused on trying to get the government into your hospital room. For a party that wants less government they sure are trying awfully hard to expand it when it suits needs of their superiors.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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EK, your inline edits of a quoted post make responding difficult, but I'll try.

Leadership is subjective; I have pointed out areas where I felt that he has failed to deliver and had the opportunity.
Subjective, right.

Not fulfilling every campaign promise doesn't make anyone a "weak leader" by any reasonable definition of those terms.

What I am seeing is that basically, you don't like him because you think he's a weak leader, and you think he's a weak leader because you don't like him.

Such as? Specifics, please.

  1. transparency of government
  2. Lobbyists in the WH
  3. Lobbyist access to the WH
  4. Ability to review bills by the public before signature - allow public input.
Yes, all things he should be doing more of. All politicians don't follow through with every promise. What does that have to do with being a "weak leader"?

He has not led the country out of the recession.
Already addressed multiple times.

Policies has increased dependency on the government spending/handouts
Opinion with nothing to back it up. The mess that led to increased government handouts was well underway before he took office.

He did not reduce the deficit as stated - it has actually increase
If he promised to reduce the deficit, that was before the economy imploded, before he took office, making that goal unattainable.

He has not pulled the employment back - His policies have created concern by business and sniffled needed growth
Also already addressed. The president doesn't have sole control over any of these issues. Furthermore, he's been constantly obstructed by congressional Republicans in most of what he wanted to do.

So how is this evidence of "weak leadership"?

and what has he done - nobody on the Obama side has identified what he has accomplished to move the country forward.
Links to specific lists already provided. So why are you saying this?

[/QUOTE]

the sequester is his doing - he passed the buck to congress to solve the problem; never expecting that they could fail. He wanted one pain pill and now complains about it.
This is flat out, 100% false. If this is the sort of evidence you are going to provide for Obama being a "weak leader", then that's rather telling.

The sequester came about because the Republicans held the raising of the debt ceiling hostage. Period. End of discussion. If they had cleanly raised the ceiling as every other prior Congress had, there would be no sequester.

"It is the Republicans that have create this problem!"
That's a quote in quotation marks. Source?

"It is the Republicans that want to harm (fill in the blank) rather than accept a tax increase"
That's a quote in quotation marks. Not really appropriate without a source.

Are you denying that the Republicans want to cut programs rather than allow a tax increase? That would be interesting.

Is Obama a "weak leader" because he doesn't take responsibility for what Republicans do?


"It is the Republicans this and that whenever anything happens."

I am surprised that he does not blame the Republicans for Sandy :p

Sound familiar :confused:
Sounds to me like you don't have any actual quotes to support your position, so you're making them up.

He still is blaming the Republicans and wants everything his way.
You can blame the Republican for doing their job. His job is to find a solution/compromise
Rather than find a solution; he acts content to look for failure.
Now you're just repeating your previously unsupported claims, all of which boil down to "I dislike Obama so everything is his fault".

Or are you seriously claiming that the Republicans should take no blame for anything they have done over the last four years?

Why is Obama required to do what they will not, hmm?

And how can he find "solutions" when he's dealing with people whose only priority is to block everything he does?

How can he find "healing" with people who were plotting against him literally from the night of his inauguration?

Sorry, I don't think your dislike for Obama is anything more than partisanship. The exact same nonsense I hear from Limbaugh and his friends on a daily basis.

The real irony is that you accuse Obama of blaming everything on the Republicans, when you blame everything on Obama.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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The tea party are really another political party, but they run as (R) because if they didn't, they'd be third party and there are far too many people who just look at the ballot and pick either (D) or (R) without knowing a thing about the candidate or their history and stances; leaving those candidates SoL. There are things I agree with the tea party about, some I think are a little far fetched.

The "tea party" is nothing more and nothing less than the far right fringe of the Republican Party.

They may have started out as something more inclusive than that, but it devolved within weeks.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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I think we're seeing three converging issues here. First, Obama isn't so much weak as ineffectual, simply because he has zero executive experience. Clinton by contrast had been a governor in a state that is nominally Democrat but very conservative; he had lots of experience convincing and coaxing people to do what they might not want to do. Clinton also has great personal charisma; people like him even if they disagree politically. Same with Reagan and Bush II. No one not in agreement with Obama's politics seems to think he has any charisma, whereas those completely in agreement with his politics think him a rock star if not Jesus. Not knowing the man, I won't hazard a guess. But we can say with absolute certainty Obama has never been in a leadership position leading potentially hostile followers, people with fundamentally different core beliefs, different motivations, different values. Politically he hails from Chicago, functionally as single party as any banana republic, an area where personality rather than policy separates the various people vying for office. As a community organizer his followers were by definition on board for the same reasons. As both a state senator and a US Senator he was a near-complete non-entity, his signal state legislation being a minor expansion of an earlier Republican bill funding health care for poor children that passed overwhelmingly. And in his very brief time "behind enemy lines" in the public sector, he was a low level functionary - a follower, not a leader, simply because of his inexperience. His first two years only reinforced that image of leadership; with a strong House and a filibuster-proof Senate majority, Obama needed only to persuade those who already believe in essentially the same principles. Therefore he arm-twisted, bullied and bribed Democrat Senators as needed while ignoring Republican Senators. In the two years since, he has failed to learn leadership, so that his sense of leadership remains telling Republicans to do as he says and publicly complaining that they do not do so. This is especially problematic with Republican Senators because of the faulty mirrors in Senate offices. This naturally makes the Republicans not want to follow him, and Republicans not wanting to follow him reinforces Obama's perception that the only way to lead them is to castigate them publicly.

The second converging problem is the Republican Party itself. The GOP has largely defused the Tea Party by concentrating on its common social positions, but it still lacks a clear sense of direction. Having lost the popular vote in the last five Presidential elections and being on the losing side of demographics (Ted Kennedy for all his faults pretty much won the long run for the Democrats with his 1965 immigration reform bill) the GOP knows it has to do something, but it cannot find a promising direction in line with its core beliefs. It also has the clear example of where Obama would like to take us in his health care bill - more government, more centralization. Another example is his open support of gay rights in marriage and in the military. Whether or not individual Republicans care about this issue, they each have supporters who will write them off from votes or dollars if they fail to vigorously oppose them. Yet the Pubbies need more votes, and the pool of non-Republican voters is increasingly sympathetic to equal rights for gays. So the Republicans are fighting a delaying action, opposing everything, until they can find something for which they can work that has majority support. Why even try for compromise if there's nothing you want? Sometimes this is taken to ludicrous lengths, but even in its most innocuous it adds a lot of friction into getting anything accomplished. Even where the parties are largely in agreement, the GOP still balks.

So now we have a President who does not know how to lead and roughly half the government afraid to move at all. It's not a good combination. With a better leader, the GOP could be coaxed into movement. With a better GOP, things would happen because of Democrat and Republican Congressional leaders in spite of the President, because they each have things they want, things in common, and things they recognize need to be done regardless of whether or not politically they agree or can admit to politically agreeing. Add in the third thing - the honest divergence of where the country should go coupled with the federal government's increasing ability to set that direction - and it's not surprising much is happening.

I can add a fourth issue as well. Democrats, and especially President Obama, intend to significantly change America structurally as well as collect and spend significantly more tax money. Republicans want to keep the country largely as it is and not collect or spend significantly more tax money. This means that gridlock works to give Republicans some of what they want - no significant change to America. Since, again, the Republicans do not have a clear direction for change that they both want and can sell politically, they are happy to accept nothing but gridlock; it costs them nothing since they have nothing they want. This allows the Republicans the sense of being effectual, of getting their way, making progress, while doing nothing but obstruction. And I think Democrats have been fairly happy as well, since the lack of a budget has allowed continuing resolution spending and individual bill spending equal to TARP et al, so without getting an agreement they are still getting much of the new spending they want or formally admitting they are spending it.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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I'm pretty sure that not being offered a speaking spot at a convention and being drummed out of office and/or the party is slightly different.

Still not seeing anything unusual?

He's getting criticism and the people who don't like his policies etc are talking of finding a candidate more to their liking to run for his seat. So no, I don't see anything unusual. In fact, seems like exactly how it's supposed to work.

Fern
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
-snip-
The Democrats engage in a lot of wasteful spending as well. But not even they are so outrageous as to pass themselves off as the fiscally responsible party. At least own up to the insanity.

Please.

At least go back and refresh yourself on the 2006 Democratic Congressional campaign. Checking out some of Pelosi's campaign BS would be a good starting place.

Fern
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Eaglekeeper isn't asking any honest question about Obama's accomplishments, because if he was he wouldn't be ignoring my posts with hundreds listed and linked.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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He's getting criticism and the people who don't like his policies etc are talking of finding a candidate more to their liking to run for his seat. So no, I don't see anything unusual. In fact, seems like exactly how it's supposed to work.

The Republicans have made a routine of primarying established candidates in their own party because they weren't "pure" (extreme) enough.

How many times have the Democrats done that in the last decade? I can't think of even one.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,901
4,927
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Please.

At least go back and refresh yourself on the 2006 Democratic Congressional campaign. Checking out some of Pelosi's campaign BS would be a good starting place.

Fern


If pointing to an exception and passing it off as the rule to that one sentence in my very lengthy post was the only thing you could find fault with, I dare say things might be more skewed against your party of choice than they are for.

Sophitia.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,974
55,368
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He's getting criticism and the people who don't like his policies etc are talking of finding a candidate more to their liking to run for his seat. So no, I don't see anything unusual. In fact, seems like exactly how it's supposed to work.

Fern

If you don't see any difference between the reactions of the two sides to their candidates I can't help but feel that you're being deliberately obtuse. You mentioned not wanting to look up data on primary challenges earlier, but that's basically all that can allow you to continue with this delusion.

Whether or not you agree with the tea party, the differences between the two parties are undeniable, particularly with the newfound influence of the ultra right on the Republican Party.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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First, Obama isn't so much weak as ineffectual, simply because he has zero executive experience.

The "executive experience" argument was fallacious back in 2008. Now that Obama's been president for four years, it's laughable.

Presidents are not dictators. Their effectiveness cannot be judged in a vacuum. If Obama has not gotten things done, it's mostly -- not entirely, of course -- because he was stopped by his opponents. That says nothing about his personal abilities, just about the hatred many people have for him, and the political cynicism of people like Mitch McConnell (whom I consider to be, if not a traitor to his nation, very close.)

And despite that, he's managed to do quite a bit. The links have been posted here. None of the people claiming Obama is "weak" or "ineffectual" has addressed them.

Clinton by contrast had been a governor in a state that is nominally Democrat but very conservative; he had lots of experience convincing and coaxing people to do what they might not want to do. Clinton also has great personal charisma; people like him even if they disagree politically.

I love the nostalgia for Clinton on the right these days.

Thing is -- I remember the 90s. They hated Clinton when he was actually in office. He was portrayed as smarmy, dishonest and corrupt -- which, frankly, I agreed with. His wife was denigrated as a power-hungry bitch who had someone murdered to further her political agenda. Later, they tried to have Clinton removed from office, and made every possible effort to marginalize him.

Now, suddenly, Clinton wasn't so bad. I hear it all over talk radio.

You're not entirely correct on the likeability issue, by the way. Obama's likeability has always been pretty good. If it's not as high among his political opponents, it's largely because of his race and heritage, and the deliberate smear campaign that started against him even before his first presidential run.

To this day, some outrageous percentage of Republicans believe flat out falsehoods about Obama. Again, Obama is not responsible for lies told about him by the cynical to the stupid.

No one not in agreement with Obama's politics seems to think he has any charisma, whereas those completely in agreement with his politics think him a rock star if not Jesus.

False dichotomy. His likeability among independents has always been pretty good.

And, once again, he is not responsible for people who hate him because of what he is, not what he does.

But we can say with absolute certainty Obama has never been in a leadership position leading potentially hostile followers, people with fundamentally different core beliefs, different motivations, different values.

You mean -- aside from having been president for four years during one of the most difficult stretches our country has endured in recent decades.

His first two years only reinforced that image of leadership; with a strong House and a filibuster-proof Senate majority, Obama needed only to persuade those who already believe in essentially the same principles.

This is another oft-repeated myth. Obama did not have a filibuster-proof Senate for two years. It was at best a tenuous, bare supermajority for a few months, and two of them were the summer recess.

Therefore he arm-twisted, bullied and bribed Democrat Senators as needed while ignoring Republican Senators.

This is another falsehood, of course. Obama tried many times to work with Republican senators. But they were led by a guy who said his party's #1 goal was not governing, it was defeating Obama's re-election. Somehow Obama is responsible for not being able to work with people who didn't want to work with him under any circumstances?

In the two years since, he has failed to learn leadership, so that his sense of leadership remains telling Republicans to do as he says and publicly complaining that they do not do so.

And another exaggeration/mischaracterization. Where has Obama "told Republicans to do as he says"?

As for the complaints -- so what? They're valid.

The GOP has largely defused the Tea Party by concentrating on its common social positions, but it still lacks a clear sense of direction.

The distinction between the GOP and the so-called "tea party" is an artificial one, except to the extent that the latter wants a more radical GOP than the establishment GOP does. The tea party has always been the far right, and social positions have always been a part of it, except maybe for the first few months.

The GOP has a perfectly clear direction, which you yourself outlined: obstruct everything at any cost, and then try to use that as a wedge to claim the Democrats are ineffective and so they should be elected. And what do you know -- it works on some people! It's working on you, and you're pretty smart, so it's likely to work on typical "low information voters" (read: ignoramuses).

Having lost the popular vote in the last five Presidential elections and being on the losing side of demographics (Ted Kennedy for all his faults pretty much won the long run for the Democrats with his 1965 immigration reform bill) ...

An interesting way to both disparage Kennedy and give him too much credit simultaneously.

Kennedy didn't win anything long-term for the Democrats. The Republicans lost long-term through their cynical reaction to the various legislation in the 1960s. They are now sowing the bitter harvest of their effort to exploit white resentment and religious extremism.

It also has the clear example of where Obama would like to take us in his health care bill - more government, more centralization. Another example is his open support of gay rights in marriage and in the military.

Two great examples of major accomplishments by the supposedy "ineffectual" Obama.

Yet the Pubbies need more votes, and the pool of non-Republican voters is increasingly sympathetic to equal rights for gays. So the Republicans are fighting a delaying action, opposing everything, until they can find something for which they can work that has majority support.

If you actually believe this, it's pretty damning. It would suggest that, for all the bluster, the Republicans don't really have core principles that they're willing to stand by if it means losing elections.

I think it is here that we see a split between the GOP "establishment" and the "tea party". The former cares about power, and doesn't care what it has to do in order to get it. The latter has proven they'd rather run themselves off a cliff than compromise on anything. And that is the real problem with the Republican Party right now -- it is being pulled in two directions while simultaneously losing out on demographics.

Of course, they completely deserve it.

I can add a fourth issue as well. Democrats, and especially President Obama, intend to significantly change America structurally as well as collect and spend significantly more tax money. Republicans want to keep the country largely as it is and not collect or spend significantly more tax money. This means that gridlock works to give Republicans some of what they want - no significant change to America.

Funny, because the right keeps telling me that they do want something -- they want to reduce the debt and deficit, they want to "create jobs" and so forth. This seems to be an admission that they are lying about that, which, given their recent priorities, I'd have to agree with.

They don't actually want anything, other than to gum up the works so they can say "They can't govern! Elect us instead!". It almost worked in 2012, and would have if they had selected a human candidate instead of a robot, so why not try it again in 2016? Not like they have any other viable plan, after all.

As for the Democrats "structurally" changing America, I see lots of innuendo from the right on that score, but no real evidence of any such effort.

Since, again, the Republicans do not have a clear direction for change that they both want and can sell politically, they are happy to accept nothing but gridlock; it costs them nothing since they have nothing they want.

Gridlock is exactly what they want.

This allows the Republicans the sense of being effectual, of getting their way, making progress, while doing nothing but obstruction.

It's not about them trying to appear effectual. It's about them trying to make Obama and the Democrats appear ineffectual.

And, once again, it's working. Your own post is clear evidence.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The "executive experience" argument was fallacious back in 2008. Now that Obama's been president for four years, it's laughable.

Presidents are not dictators. Their effectiveness cannot be judged in a vacuum. If Obama has not gotten things done, it's mostly -- not entirely, of course -- because he was stopped by his opponents. That says nothing about his personal abilities, just about the hatred many people have for him, and the political cynicism of people like Mitch McConnell (whom I consider to be, if not a traitor to his nation, very close.)

And despite that, he's managed to do quite a bit. The links have been posted here. None of the people claiming Obama is "weak" or "ineffectual" has addressed them.

I love the nostalgia for Clinton on the right these days.

Thing is -- I remember the 90s. They hated Clinton when he was actually in office. He was portrayed as smarmy, dishonest and corrupt -- which, frankly, I agreed with. His wife was denigrated as a power-hungry bitch who had someone murdered to further her political agenda. Later, they tried to have Clinton removed from office, and made every possible effort to marginalize him.

Now, suddenly, Clinton wasn't so bad. I hear it all over talk radio.

You're not entirely correct on the likeability issue, by the way. Obama's likeability has always been pretty good. If it's not as high among his political opponents, it's largely because of his race and heritage, and the deliberate smear campaign that started against him even before his first presidential run.

To this day, some outrageous percentage of Republicans believe flat out falsehoods about Obama. Again, Obama is not responsible for lies told about him by the cynical to the stupid.

False dichotomy. His likeability among independents has always been pretty good.

And, once again, he is not responsible for people who hate him because of what he is, not what he does.

You mean -- aside from having been president for four years during one of the most difficult stretches our country has endured in recent decades.

This is another oft-repeated myth. Obama did not have a filibuster-proof Senate for two years. It was at best a tenuous, bare supermajority for a few months, and two of them were the summer recess.

This is another falsehood, of course. Obama tried many times to work with Republican senators. But they were led by a guy who said his party's #1 goal was not governing, it was defeating Obama's re-election. Somehow Obama is responsible for not being able to work with people who didn't want to work with him under any circumstances?

And another exaggeration/mischaracterization. Where has Obama "told Republicans to do as he says"?

As for the complaints -- so what? They're valid.

The distinction between the GOP and the so-called "tea party" is an artificial one, except to the extent that the latter wants a more radical GOP than the establishment GOP does. The tea party has always been the far right, and social positions have always been a part of it, except maybe for the first few months.

The GOP has a perfectly clear direction, which you yourself outlined: obstruct everything at any cost, and then try to use that as a wedge to claim the Democrats are ineffective and so they should be elected. And what do you know -- it works on some people! It's working on you, and you're pretty smart, so it's likely to work on typical "low information voters" (read: ignoramuses).

An interesting way to both disparage Kennedy and give him too much credit simultaneously.

Kennedy didn't win anything long-term for the Democrats. The Republicans lost long-term through their cynical reaction to the various legislation in the 1960s. They are now sowing the bitter harvest of their effort to exploit white resentment and religious extremism.

Two great examples of major accomplishments by the supposedy "ineffectual" Obama.

If you actually believe this, it's pretty damning. It would suggest that, for all the bluster, the Republicans don't really have core principles that they're willing to stand by if it means losing elections.

I think it is here that we see a split between the GOP "establishment" and the "tea party". The former cares about power, and doesn't care what it has to do in order to get it. The latter has proven they'd rather run themselves off a cliff than compromise on anything. And that is the real problem with the Republican Party right now -- it is being pulled in two directions while simultaneously losing out on demographics.

Of course, they completely deserve it.

Funny, because the right keeps telling me that they do want something -- they want to reduce the debt and deficit, they want to "create jobs" and so forth. This seems to be an admission that they are lying about that, which, given their recent priorities, I'd have to agree with.

They don't actually want anything, other than to gum up the works so they can say "They can't govern! Elect us instead!". It almost worked in 2012, and would have if they had selected a human candidate instead of a robot, so why not try it again in 2016? Not like they have any other viable plan, after all.

As for the Democrats "structurally" changing America, I see lots of innuendo from the right on that score, but no real evidence of any such effort.

Gridlock is exactly what they want.

It's not about them trying to appear effectual. It's about them trying to make Obama and the Democrats appear ineffectual.

And, once again, it's working. Your own post is clear evidence.
How was the "executive experience" argument fallacious back in 2008? He had none, no executive experience at all. As for now, I'm not arguing that he doesn't have it now; rather I'm arguing that he has not learned leadership in spite of his years in office. Look at Craig's lists of accomplishments and you'll see that other than progressive wish list items (liberal SCUTUS justices) they fall almost exclusively into two groups. The first are legislative accomplishments during the 2009-2010 legislature, when Democrats owned Congress lock, stock and barrel. We can certainly quibble about how long he had a veto-proof majority (although not that this was true when he passed Obamacare and the ONLY way he passed Obamacare) but you cannot deny that he had a Senate majority not seen since FDR and one the Republicans have never had. Thus we have evidence that Obama can lead those who fundamentally agree with him. However, he did this not by sitting down with them and working up a plan, but by presenting them a done deal (Obamacare) and then forcing them to approve it. That only works if the resistance is not to the fundamental issues, but rather to the personal political effect of supporting them.

The second group of Obama accomplishments is in executive powers, where Obama can simply order the bureaucrats to change. Obviously this is an area where Obama needs no leadership skills, for he can merely order it done and even after he lost the Senate he still has the House to prevent Congress from countermanding his initiatives, regardless of whether those initiatives are good or bad.

Trust me, there is no nostalgia for Clinton among the right; there is only realization that Obama is much worse in most ways. (On health care Clinton was far worse; Hilarycare would actually send you and your doctor to prison were you to do something so heinous as to pay for your own health care with your own money.) However, my point was not that Clinton was good or bad, merely that he knew how to work with Republicans. He knew how to lead. He fought with them tooth and nail, but he also engaged them, got as much as he could of what he wanted into legislation while accepting as little as possible of what the Republicans wanted, and therefore took credit for whatever legislation emerged. This is what Obama cannot or will not do, unless you choose to believe Obama that he has been working in good faith but the Republicans are not. However, when meetings are behind closed doors, one can only choose on the basis of ideology whom to believe. You choose to believe Obama that the Republicans agreed privately to tax increases, then backed out. I choose to believe the Republicans when they say they never agreed privately to tax increases, which perfectly matches their public stance of no new taxes. Neither of us can know, but it's worth pointing out that what the Republicans say happened privately matches their public stance.

Going back to Clinton, it's good that you recall how much Clinton was hated. Do you recall how much he accomplished? That's leadership, regardless of whether one agrees with the direction. Same with Bush II, who was hated at least as much as Obama. You don't see any Republican Congressman traveling to Syria to stand with Bashar Asad to tell the world that Asad is a man of his word but Obama cannot be trusted, right? Same with Reagan, the first post-war President to be really hated by the other side. Reagan had the ability to work with Democrats as well as the ability to go directly to the public and sell them on his ideas; although the Democrats hated his politics, they passed most of his agenda because he had gotten overwhelming public support and then worked with them to pass legislation they could live with. Obama has neither ability; he cannot sell the public on his policies so that they demand them, and he cannot lead the Republicans where they do not want to go.

By blaming 100% on the Republicans you absolve Obama of any possibility of failure; you have literally made the man divine.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
The budget problems did not start with Obama's inauguration.

Consistent trillion dollar deficits did.

I'd respect the "tea party" a whole lot more if they had as much of a problem with how their own party ran things when they were in control.

The exact opposite is true of the left. What were intolerable wars and budgets and who knows what else when Bush did it were suddenly acceptable when Obama did it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,974
55,368
136
Consistent trillion dollar deficits did.



The exact opposite is true of the left. What were intolerable wars and budgets and who knows what else when Bush did it were suddenly acceptable when Obama did it.

Actually they started with Bush's last budget.

Furthermore the left didn't suddenly start loving any of those wars. Third, basic economic theory says that big deficits in good times are bad while big deficits in bad times are good. There is no in congruence there. What I'm trying to figure out is what economic theory are Republicans ascribing to?
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Consistent trillion dollar deficits did.

Wrong, as eskimospy pointed out.

When Obama took office, the economy was in the middle of the big downslope on a roller coaster. He didn't set that in motion.

What were intolerable wars and budgets and who knows what else when Bush did it were suddenly acceptable when Obama did it.

Go ahead and try to actually back that up with facts.

It was the Iraq War that 'the left' opposed back then, and if anything they are complaining that Obama isn't getting us out fast enough.

As for Afghanistan, we at least had some semi-plausible reason for being there, and I believe support for that among Democrats was high during Bush's term as well.

What I'm trying to figure out is what economic theory are Republicans ascribing to?

Simple:

1. If Obama supports it, it must be bad.
2. The priority isn't what the country needs, it is trying to win the next election.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Actually they started with Bush's last budget.

Furthermore the left didn't suddenly start loving any of those wars. Third, basic economic theory says that big deficits in good times are bad while big deficits in bad times are good. There is no in congruence there. What I'm trying to figure out is what economic theory are Republicans ascribing to?

That's like asking what model of world peace Attila the Hun ascribed to.

He wasn't after world peace. He was after loot.

There was no 'making sense' of his behavior as some reasonable approach to peace.

He used peace processes when they suited him - to collect ransom.

There's a fallacy at work here. People ideologically assume, 'well, they MUST be responsible government officials who really only want the best for the country and its citizens - it must be the case that somehow their policies fit those goals, and maybe they don't agree on how best to do them with the Democrats'.

What's missing is consideration of the possibility that ultimately those policies are designed to be anti-democracy, anti-American moves to a brutal plutocracy, and only 'wrapped in sheep's cothing' so they look presentable for discussion in a democracy - where fortunes like those of the Koch brothers fund entire organizations of writers whose job is nothing more than a sort of witches brew maker of finding ways to take ugly policies of snake oil and create sales pitches for them that fool a lot of the public.

Of course, this involves a lot of minions who ar e'leaders' but don't understand the game themselves, they only know that they are rewarded to fight for the ideology.

There is no sense behind Republican economic policies in general. There are compromises they make that make sense, there are spins and theories that seem to make sense.

For example, take the core policy: "all you citizens, get out your wallets, and hand over your cash to the rich guy."

Not very sellable. A bit obvious.

Now, enter "trickle-down economics": it becomes, "shift the tax burden off the rich guy, and onto you, because if he has more money, he'll create wealth and you come out ahead!"

Now, there was one more spin to make that really work. If people actually had to pay that money, they might notice the pain a bit much.

So, it was all just put on the credit card. "Keep your money, AND cut taxes on the rich guy where he'll create wealth and you come out ahead, the bill goes on to the debt, except the debt isn't because of this policy, it's because of those Democrats who LOVEEEEEE to spend irresponsibly! So hate them and vote against them!"

And there you have a nice scam.

People starting to notice the snake oil isn't helping much? Try our job creator oil! Let's have a sales party and call it a tea party! Paid for by the snake oil company!

That's all it is really. Groups such as AEI and Cato and Heritage are created by 'venture capital' by right-wing billionares such as the Kochs and Scaife and Coors and Mellon.

As they get up and running, funding can be taken over by the corporate interests they serve so well. There are your 'messages' to fool the citizens in the democracy.

Need the messages spread? There's the big conglomerate media, the subsidized outlets, the 'right-wing noise machine' - of the sort we saw recently when a reported made a joke about the 'Friends of Hamas' donating to Chuck Hagel to a Senate Aide, who rushed it to Breitbart, who publicized it and fed it into the noise machine and we heard about it throughout the media, with a US Senator voting on the nomination saying he was 'very concerned' about the issue - just that one was easily debunked.

You look for a sensible 'economic theory' they're following for their policies? It's not there. Just the tidbits when they can find corruption or mistakes, the spin.

For example, liberal policies aren't perfect - Republicans can on occassion have valid 'talking points' to attack a flaw here or there. But not much more.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That's like asking what model of world peace Attila the Hun ascribed to.

He wasn't after world peace. He was after loot.

There was no 'making sense' of his behavior as some reasonable approach to peace.

He used peace processes when they suited him - to collect ransom.

There's a fallacy at work here. People ideologically assume, 'well, they MUST be responsible government officials who really only want the best for the country and its citizens - it must be the case that somehow their policies fit those goals, and maybe they don't agree on how best to do them with the Democrats'.

What's missing is consideration of the possibility that ultimately those policies are designed to be anti-democracy, anti-American moves to a brutal plutocracy, and only 'wrapped in sheep's cothing' so they look presentable for discussion in a democracy - where fortunes like those of the Koch brothers fund entire organizations of writers whose job is nothing more than a sort of witches brew maker of finding ways to take ugly policies of snake oil and create sales pitches for them that fool a lot of the public.

SNIP

For example, liberal policies aren't perfect - Republicans can on occassion have valid 'talking points' to attack a flaw here or there. But not much more.
There's a sound reason why "consideration of the possibility that ultimately those policies are designed to be anti-democracy, anti-American moves to a brutal plutocracy, and only 'wrapped in sheep's cothing' so they look presentable for discussion in a democracy" is missing. I do not think it is what you feel it is.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,901
4,927
136
I don't believe the economy was destroyed by Obama. Then again, I don't believe it was demolished by Bush either. Though he may have facilitated policies that helped to empower the elite far more than the many, if I recall correctly, the economies decline seemed to begin near the tail end of Clinton's last term. For that matter I don't even believe Clinton is singled handedly responsible for most of our economic woes, even if it the downturn began with him being the man in office. I think the 90's while seemingly great at the time was nothing more than a sugar rush riding high off the fumes of overextending borrowing, lending and spending. The kind of over extended borrowing that we are paying for now. Growth at that pace could never have been sustainable forever, not even if we had never outsourced a single job.

There was greed and entitlement everywhere. A new found sense of greed in"deserving" a big house you might later not be able to afford arose. Greed from banks made them hand out loans to these people almost indiscriminately, hoping to keep them on the hook forever, only to get a bailout when their bets went sour. Greed was everywhere, in all upper, middle and lower classes and these are the consequences. People are mostly just mad now that the bankers now have so much pull and influence and are in such a position of untouchability in becoming too big to let fail that they now had the means to shirk their bite of the shit sandwich and worse, offload it to everyone else without said influence.

In any event, you can all stop pointing fingers acting as though an economy rises and falls based solely on who is in the white house and look to your own habits and weigh your own ownership in the slumping economy if you want the prosperity to come back. The politicians are too afraid now to tell us the truth of how we ourselves have a great deal of ownership in the nations woes. A sale on a cheap made in china product might not seem like much on your trip to target, but jobs are being destroyed when millions adopt said behavior even if the consequences are not so easily seen. If there is to be a return to prosperous times it will not come as a result of what happens in Washington, but what kinds of small, incremental actions each seemingly insignificant person contributes to the whole.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
How was the "executive experience" argument fallacious back in 2008?

1. The concept of "executive experience" was specifically crafted to be a cudgel against Obama, and never had an objective definition.

2. He had already demonstrated the ability to run a primary campaign that defeated a strongly favored opponent.

3. The guy he was running against had no "executive experience" either.

4. Other presidents have been elected without "executive experience". We've even had a president who not only had no "executive experience", he was not elected at all.

5. It became especially ridiculous when his aged opponent chose for his VP candidate a vain idiot whose "executive experience" amounted to practically nothing as well.

There are probably more, but those will suffice.

As for now, I'm not arguing that he doesn't have it now; rather I'm arguing that he has not learned leadership in spite of his years in office.

You're claiming that, not arguing it. Because whether someone is a good leader or not is purely a matter of opinion. There's no factual basis for your assertion.

The first are legislative accomplishments during the 2009-2010 legislature, when Democrats owned Congress lock, stock and barrel. We can certainly quibble about how long he had a veto-proof majority (although not that this was true when he passed Obamacare and the ONLY way he passed Obamacare) but you cannot deny that he had a Senate majority not seen since FDR and one the Republicans have never had.

The "Obama had two full years in control of everything" is a standard talking point on the right, and it happens to be bullshit. Pointing that out is not "quibbling" -- it's "factual accuracy". It's something we strive for around here.

And even when he had the majority, it wasn't the rubber-stamping power that you and others imply. There were always the "blue dogs" to be placated, as we saw during the health care debate. One of those people was also Lieberman, if I'm not mistaken, who basically was a Republican for at least the last decade, if not longer.

Regardless, even if I accepted your premise, what does any of that prove? He's a bad leader because he took advantage of a senate majority? He's a bad leader because he wasn't able to get things done when he lacked the ability to get past record abuse of the filibuster rule?

Thus we have evidence that Obama can lead those who fundamentally agree with him.

We also have evidence that he can lead those who disagree with him, as long as they are actually open to the possibility. But because they aren't big fights, they don't get much attention.

However, he did this not by sitting down with them and working up a plan, but by presenting them a done deal (Obamacare) and then forcing them to approve it.

This is a mischaracterization. Go read the history of the PPACA and you'll find that it was not at all handed down on high as you suggest.

Trust me, there is no nostalgia for Clinton among the right; there is only realization that Obama is much worse in most ways.

Trust me -- there is. I listen to talk radio and I hear it. All the time.

However, my point was not that Clinton was good or bad, merely that he knew how to work with Republicans.

You do understand that the ability of A to get along with B depends on both A and B? Not just A or B?

Suppose you come up to me and say "hey Charles, I know we don't always agree on everything, but I have this idea I'd like to work on regarding the forum" and I respond with "I hate you, I hate everything you stand for, I think you're trying to wreck the forum and I'll do everything in my power to stop whatever you do".

Does your subsequent inability to get what you want done represent "bad leadership" on your part? Or am I just an asshole who can't be worked with?

Obama is not the best leader in the world, but he's had to deal with the most extremist, obnoxious, obstructionst bunch of assholes to ever inhabit Congress (as reflected by their very low approval ratings). He did try to work with Republicans -- so much so that Democrats thought he was naive (and were probably right). Conservatives, however, decided even before he took office that he was the enemy and was to be opposed at all turns under all circumstances.

So no, sorry, Obama's supposed "inability to work with Republicans" does not fall on his shoulders alone. In fact, most of it falls on theirs.

He knew how to lead. He fought with them tooth and nail, but he also engaged them, got as much as he could of what he wanted into legislation while accepting as little as possible of what the Republicans wanted, and therefore took credit for whatever legislation emerged.

A bit of white-washing here -- I seem to recall a government shutdown?

But otherwise, again, the ability of A to get along with B depends on both A and B. Your implications are fallacious.

This is what Obama cannot or will not do, unless you choose to believe Obama that he has been working in good faith but the Republicans are not.

That is exactly what I choose to believe, after careful observation over the last five years.

After hearing how the Republicans met on inauguration day to plot how to obstruct Obama.

After hearing the near-traitor Mitch McConnell say that his primary legislative priority wasn't to work for the good of the country, but just to get a Republican in the White House.

After hearing Rush Limbaugh declare, about a week after Obama took office that he "hopes he fails".

After enduring non-stop assignment of blame to Obama for things that were well underway when he entered the White House, such as counting job gains or losses from January 20, 2009 -- a total propaganda tactic.

After listening to the birthers and other conspiracy theorists make up and spread lies and horror stories about how Obama was a "secret" this-or-that who wants to destroy the country.

After seeing polls showing staggering percentages of Republicans believing one falsehood after another about the man.

After witnessing endless trashing of Obama, both politically and personally, for hundreds of hours on talk radio.

However, when meetings are behind closed doors, one can only choose on the basis of ideology whom to believe.

Wrong. See above.

As just another example, there's the debt ceiling fight, when Obama not only offered spending cuts to balance tax increases, he offered multiples of spending cuts for each dollar of tax increases -- and the Republicans, who spend much of their time kissing Grover Norquist's ring, refused to even consider it.

Going back to Clinton, it's good that you recall how much Clinton was hated. Do you recall how much he accomplished? That's leadership, regardless of whether one agrees with the direction.

Already addressed above. The GOP hadn't gone quite as bat shit insane now as it was then.

Also, the Republicans imploded under Gingrich, putting them in a pretty weak position.

Same with Bush II, who was hated at least as much as Obama.

To the extent that you're willing to call what he did "accomplishments", he got them mainly because of Democrats being far more reasonable (and foolish) than Republicans, and his exploitation of 9/11 to label anyone who didn't go along with him as "unpatriotic".

There's also a difference between the hatred towards Bush and that towards Obama. Bush was mostly not hated when he started out -- the far left felt resentful because of the Florida debacle, but most people gave him a chance when he began.

The hatred and smearing of Obama by the right began before he even took office.

Most people eventually came to hate W, but it was because of his actions. I am one of those.

I personally remember staying up election night hoping he would win, and being glad when it turned out that he did beat Gore. I thought he would be great for the country. I remember arguing against leftists over the "popular vote" issue, and even wrote an essay bout it.

But after watching Bush for eight years, I now consider him the worst president we've had in generations, and believe he should be in a jail cell, because of his lies and incompetent.

That's rational dislike -- dislike earned by the person towards whom it is directed.

By blaming 100% on the Republicans you absolve Obama of any possibility of failure; you have literally made the man divine.

This is a false claim. Where have I ever said Obama is "absolved of any possibility of failure"?

I don't blame things 100% on the Republicans. But I do give them the lion's share of the blame, because they are the ones who made clear from the start that they would not work with Obama.

The real question is why you and others like you decide to conclude from the conflict between Obama and the GOP that Obama is a "weak leader". Or would be, were the answer not so obvious.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
I don't believe the economy was destroyed by Obama. Then again, I don't believe it was demolished by Bush either. Though he may have facilitated policies that helped to empower the elite far more than the many, if I recall correctly, the economies decline seemed to begin near the tail end of Clinton's last term. For that matter I don't even believe Clinton is singled handedly responsible for most of our economic woes, even if it the downturn began with him being the man in office. I think the 90's while seemingly great at the time was nothing more than a sugar rush riding high off the fumes of overextending borrowing, lending and spending. The kind of over extended borrowing that we are paying for now. Growth at that pace could never have been sustainable forever, not even if we had never outsourced a single job.

There was greed and entitlement everywhere. A new found sense of greed in"deserving" a big house you might later not be able to afford arose. Greed from banks made them hand out loans to these people almost indiscriminately, hoping to keep them on the hook forever, only to get a bailout when their bets went sour. Greed was everywhere, in all upper, middle and lower classes and these are the consequences. People are mostly just mad now that the bankers now have so much pull and influence and are in such a position of untouchability in becoming too big to let fail that they now had the means to shirk their bite of the shit sandwich and worse, offload it to everyone else without said influence.

In any event, you can all stop pointing fingers acting as though an economy rises and falls based solely on who is in the white house and look to your own habits and weigh your own ownership in the slumping economy if you want the prosperity to come back. The politicians are too afraid now to tell us the truth of how we ourselves have a great deal of ownership in the nations woes. A sale on a cheap made in china product might not seem like much on your trip to target, but jobs are being destroyed when millions adopt said behavior even if the consequences are not so easily seen. If there is to be a return to prosperous times it will not come as a result of what happens in Washington, but what kinds of small, incremental actions each seemingly insignificant person contributes to the whole.

Good points, but I think you put too much blame on homebuyers, and not enough on Wall Street.

What happened was, simply, Wall Street found a way to commit fraud - they stumbled onto it really - and that drove the problem.

At some point, a small group of people - I've read the writing of the woman in charge who did this - came up with the idea of new 'derivative' financial products bundling mortgages, IIRC. If it wasn't abused, it was a new way to make more money. I can't really praise it for doing anything more than extracting more money without really adding any value - in other words, a typical Wall Street dream product - but not too harmful.

However. From there it just grew out of control. The group who invented these things, again IIRC, came to get out of trading them because of the abuses.

There are whole books on what happened, but my version is basically, at the same time there were changes in the law making big institutional accounts - think massive sums of people's retirement money and things like that - that had been limited by law to very conservative investments to the opposite, required to diversify into more aggressive investments. But what?

Now, I haven't tracked the exact legislative history of that change, but it's exactly the sort of change Wall Street lobbyists would push for, to get their hands on the money.

Those changes, in part, made these new mortgage derivatives hugely attractive to these big funds looking for and needing to pour huge amounts of money into new areas.

On top of that, at the time, real estate was booming and these investments had good rates of return.

Now, Wall Street is based on the idea of 'fair market value' trades. If one side can misrepresent the value of a product, they can make a fortune. It's why we have laws limiting that mirepresenting of products - rules which are less stringent whenthe customer is a large institutional investor expected to do due diligence.

Now, high quality mortgages aren't that controversial - they have a more clear value and are traded around that value. Basic business.

But these new products made of low-quality high mortgages could be easy to disguise, to hide the high levels of risk and sell for more than they're worth, hugely profitable.

Now the idea for the big money makers was, get these mortgages, package them, sell them for a lot fast, wash your hands, and pay out huge bonuses.

That's where the key role of the ratings agencies like Moody's comes in. When they'd say a high-risk product was low risk, that made it elgibile for purchase by these huge institutions that were still legally required to stick to 'safer' investments - and since they were rated AAA, they were very attractive.

It was a big win-win all around for a while - but built a bubble.

Because this business was hugely profitable like printing money for these Wall Street firms, and because there was a massive appetite to buy the products as fast as they could be made available by the trillions of dollars these institutions needs to divest, there was a huge pressure on Wall Street firms to come up with a lot of these mortgages.

That's where the pressure came from from the Wall Street firms to tell the mosrtgage lendeds to come up with a huge amount of mortages - the only place a huge number could be obtained, from higher risk buyers normally turned down or given huge interest rates. Now they were told, get us mortgages, period. The mortgage brokers were paid to sell the mortgage, period.

So you had Wall Street pushing Mortgage lenders to make absurdly unjustified loans, because they could profit reselling them. And mortgage lenders advertised to unsophisticated buyers that they COULD afford and obtain these loans. They got creative, offering mortgages with very low payments early on and told the people they could have them - and besides, their home would only go way up in value. A lot of people believed it when they were told this - after all, they wouldn't give away a loan that wasn't safe?

The homebuyers won, getting loans for nice homes more than they had been able to. Mortgage brokers won, getting paid to make large numbers of loans without any questions, money being thrown at them and pushed on them. Wall Street made a fortune by taking these mortgages, packaging them, getting the AAA rating, and selling them to an institutional investor. The ratings agencies did great - they got the business of the Wall Street firms rewarding them for the lenient ratings.

Now, there's another complication to add here, if this sounds too easy and reckless.

Insurance against losses.

The government created laws - earlier when it was a bit more responsible - about insuance. If you want to sell insurance, you have to have some reserves. Well, that limits Wall Street's profits, so that won't do. If they could only sell insurance with, say, 20 to 1 leverage against their assets, they can only make that much money - but if they could have higher leveral - 'we only have $1 billion, but sure we'll insure you for $500 billion' - they could make MASSIVE money for FREE, as long as the investments kept their value.

Now, talk about a dream Wall Street product. These big institutional investors - and sometimes other Wall Street firms - liked to 'insure' their product purchases - so anyone asking questions could be told, 'hey, don't worry, even if the mortgages fail, we're covered', making it look low risk. In the meantime companies could sell that insurance, and just pocket the money - at that point with home values going up, they never had to pay much on the policies - just sell the insurance and get rich. Perfect for Wall Street.

To make it more profitable and get around the insurance laws, they simply invented something called CDOs, Credit Default Swaps. It was insurance - except with a different name so that it had no regulation. No one could tell you how many were sold, there were no rules - companies could just say 'you are covered by these CDO's'. These were attractive to buyers because they could be lower-cost insurance.

And the game went fine like this for a little while everyone getting rich. Except that it did create the bubble.

I won't try to get into things like how Fannie and Freddie got drug into this, as they had to compete with the Wall Street companies and expanded the problems.

But there was massive, 'the system is at risk' amounts of exposure of these companies owing each other far more money than they had if the CDO's were called.

It was reckless - and made people rich, so they did it.

The rest is simple, as the bubble finally got to be too much and CDO's were called in, and the issuers couldn't pay them and called in their own CDO's and they couldn't be paid.

This was where things happened like no one would loan anyone money because they suddenly would not get paid back, and firms were exposed as having 'toxic assets'.

That's assets not really worth anything that had been listed as worth a lot, and having insurance that was crap CDO's.

And that's where the deals started - the former Goldman Sachs chairman now Treasury Secretary deciding that a major rival to Goldman Sachs would not get saved, while secretly pouring tend of billions into insurer AIG which would actually go through AIG to pay back Goldman Sachs 100% on the dollar for these investments worth far less.

Congress to their credit demanded that the plan also include a large fund for helping homeowners - and then Treasury never spent 90% of the homeowner fund.

Anyway, that's my version of what happened, and the primary blame is Wall Street's and a failure of the government to regulate them well - far more than home buyer 'greed'.

Now to be clear, it's not all that simple like everyone knew they were doing something 'corrupt'. Two mitigating factors:

- Competition - when one Wall Street firm would make a FORTUNE from this, another firm couldn't stay in business well just sitting back letting the other firm get all the money, and mortgages, and business. Those retirement funds buying the fraudulent products were not putting that money into the second firm's more responsible products. They'd go out of business.

- This deregulation was sold to politicians not as 'let us bribe you to destroy the US economy', but as a 'modernization act' providing more flexibility to keep Wall Street competitive globally, with predictions that without it, the US share of finance would go down and the rest of the world with more business-friendly governments would get all the money. They didn't know, largely.

Even Senator Byron Dorgan, famous for predicting almost exactly what would happen '10 years later if you pass this', admitted he had no idea about the time frame and was just guessing and critizing the general principle of the sort of risky behaviors that were being allowed. It's not at all clear many politicians understood the problem.

We can blame all day. Wall Street wants to be reckless and make money, so they lobby the government to not regulate them well. The government gets elected by the guy who has the most money to buy tv ads showing him with a flag waving, and so they want that Wall Street money. And voters are not very good at picking candidates, in over 90% of races picking whoever has the most money showing those pretty ads with flags, and so they reward the politicians who take the money and let Wall Street be reckless.

It's a big circle of a problem. In the meantime, the people who were criminally fraudulent - knowingly misvaluing the products against the law to sell to returement funds - made billions and moved to the Bahamas. Main question left there was, will the Justice Department prosecute the crimes?

Well, no. See the politicians and money above.

Funny enough in the far smaller S&L crisis under Reagan when deregulation of S&L's passed, over a thousand people were convicted of crimes.

Not one for 2008.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
According to the White House:


Seems to support Craig's position on this particular issue pretty well.

And another good example of how the GOP has become radicalized and more interested in obstruction than governing.

Revisiting.
When was he nominated by Obama?

The date is in the wiki Jan 23, 2012.

When was the cloture vote?
July 26, 2012.

How is 6 months equal to 260 days?

Either C&C want to count the time AFTER the rejection
as filibustering or the time between submission the the preside rand nomination a filibuster.

Political fuzzy math.
Please explain how one gets 260 from
8+29+31+30+31+31+20
Days in each month that the Senate had to consider/filibuster the nomination.
Jan,
Again the devil is in the details.

Craig and Charles want to use a different ruler for measuring. That rules is not according to ANSI standards but political.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Revisiting.
When was he nominated by Obama?

The date is in the wiki Jan 23, 2012.

When was the cloture vote?
July 26, 2012.

How is 6 months equal to 260 days?

Either C&C want to count the time AFTER the rejection
as filibustering or the time between submission the the preside rand nomination a filibuster.

Political fuzzy math.
Please explain how one gets 260 from
8+29+31+30+31+31+20
Days in each month that the Senate had to consider/filibuster the nomination.
Jan,
Again the devil is in the details.

Craig and Charles want to use a different ruler for measuring. That rules is not according to ANSI standards but political.

You're not understanding.

The cloture vote 'FAILED' - 56-34. It needed 60 votes to pass.

Had the cloture vote passed, that would have ended the filibuster, and he could have been approved. Since it didn't, the filibuster continued.

He was re-nominated by Obama in January 2013 in the new Congress for the same office, this time they voted.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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You're not understanding.

The cloture vote 'FAILED' - 56-34. It needed 60 votes to pass.

Had the cloture vote passed, that would have ended the filibuster, and he could have been approved. Since it didn't, the filibuster continued.

He was re-nominated by Obama in January 2013 in the new Congress for the same office, this time they voted.

I did research (per your suggestion on cloture) and agree on the failure.

He was shot down by the old Congress in July. You are stating that some one in the Senate continued the filibuster from July through January 2013? Or did Reid just give up on tbe process until the next year? If so, is that filibustering or caving in to a threat?

That is more than the missing 100 days between our two sets of numbers unless days in session do not included time the Senate was off. But then, who was filibustering:p

Given that the Senate "works" only half time for a full time water of money, the fuzzy math may complete the equation
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
If a filibuster is going on, how can he be renominated?

He was shot down by the old Congress in July. You are stating that some one in the Senate filibustered from July through January 2013?

That is more than the missing 100 days between our two sets of numbers.

A new Congress started in Jan 2013. Filibusters from the previous Congress ended with it.

The linked White House article uses the same 263 day figure.

It's getting to the point you're ignoring the issue to try to nit pick the unimportant detail - 'nuh UH it wasn't 263 days it was longer!' Ya, that changes the point.

I haven't looked at how the 263 was calculated. It was clearly that long. That's the point.

Where's your post saying you now understand that you misunderstood the cloture vote and how the fact that it failed is a correction for you?

Maybe even 'thanks for correcting your mistake'?

Repubs SUGGESTED him, both state Senators SUPPORTED him, Repubs FILIBUSTERED HIM for a very long time and supported the filibuster voting against cloture, then a 93-0 vote.

Making exactly the point I made about the pointless, gratuitous abuse of the filibuster.