Employment Law Experts Opinion Needed

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
I have a family member that is a little bit slow. They were pulled into the office and terminated yesterday, this is their statement as to what happened.

"I was pulled into the managers office regarding internal theft. The loss prevention guy named Chris he asked me if I had committed fraud on shop your way rewards before and I sad no and asked him what he was talking about.
He went to tell me about the cameras positioned on the registers and how it showed that I put my phone number in to get the points.
Back on 11/13/2010 there was a new game release called Call of Duty Black Ops when it released if you had a shop your way rewards card you got a bonus of 25000 points added to your card. To my knowledge at the time, there was no store policy stating that customers could not give employees their bonus points if they did not have an account, and did not want to create one.
After we talked about what happened, and I told him I did not remember if I had intentionally input my rewards information or it was mistake. He had me write a statement, I wrote one statement explaining I did not remember, and it might have been a simple mistake on my part and he said that was not good enough. I had to write another statement and he said the same thing. He said if he had to that he could call the cops and have escorted out by them, implying I would be arrested. I wrote the 3rd statement admitting to doing it, I felt like I was being co-herst into admitting I was committing internal theft even though it did not involve store property."

This was working for Sears Holding Company. Is it illegal not to accept you statement as to what happened, and then threaten to call the police and have to taken out, if you don't sign what they want? They had teenagers that got several hundred thousand reward points from that sale. Her's was just a single entry, and it was only after about a month of employment, and they made her supervisor of the electronics department. Does it sound like she may have a case against them?
 

seepy83

Platinum Member
Nov 12, 2003
2,132
3
71
IANAL, and I am not a expert by any means.

Your friend signed a piece of paper admitting to doing what she was fired for. That's pretty much game over.

If you're losing your job for any reason and you think you want to take some kind of legal action, you never sign anything. Period. I don't care if they ask you to sign a piece of paper that says you were the best employee they ever had. Don't sign anything...just leave.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
50,056
714
126
Most states are "At will employment". They can fire you for most anything. Not accepting the original statement is a little shady and it's obvious the employees was lying on it anyway.

BoomerD or CC may have some input.
 

LurkerPrime

Senior member
Aug 11, 2010
962
0
71
statements or other actions taken while under duress usually will not be upheld by a court.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1O49-duress.html

at the very least they could probably get your family member on some sort of fraud by using her card on someone else's purchase. However it would be much easier and cheaper to fire her. She knew it was wrong, they caught her on tape, and they just made her put that in a statement. Probably not even enough to prove she was under duress. live and learn and move on. If anything the statement will be used to deny her unemployment.
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
She did not know it was wrong, there was no policy at the time. Remember, she had only been there 1 month, and running a register for 1 week when this happened. I think there is a good chance she can get the unemployment. How can it be stealing when the points are going out with a purchase and the customer does not want them, and tells the employee they can have them. You can see from the tape she asked her something, and they said something and shook their head.

I don't think telling them you don't remember, or it could have been a mistake is grounds for not accepting the statement. I think they wanted to change the store policy, after some people did cause real fraud by taking several hundred thousand points, that accumulated into money, they wanted to remove anyone had may have known anything about it.

I hope she can win unemployment, I talked to a couple of the bosses where I work, and they think if she shows up to every hearing, and tells them what happened, she will probably win. She is emotionally shattered, before this job, she was with Sam's Club for 10 years. After topping out of her salary range, they forced her to change her schedule to a shift that would not allow her to take care of her kids, 7 year old twins. She had to call in, they told her if she did it again, she was fired. The next week, she had to do the same again, all because they would not work with her scheduling. Not only did they not list her as being fired, they put her down as abandoning her job by not coming back, killing her chance for unemployment. All that just one month after her mom died. She has had a really bad year, and I feel bad for the kids.
 

guyver01

Lifer
Sep 25, 2000
22,151
5
61
Ignorance of the Law (or policy) is not an excuse. If she didn't know.. she shoulda asked.

She signed a piece of paper saying she defrauded the company.

PROVE she signed it under duress.
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
the other girl setting beside her will probably testify about it. They did not even call her in the office alone when they did it.

Ignorance of the Law (or policy) is not an excuse. If she didn't know.. she shoulda asked.

She signed a piece of paper saying she defrauded the company.

PROVE she signed it under duress.

How can you say ignorance, when there was non in existence at the time, how can you call it policy, when no one is in serviced on it. If you don't sign for it, then it does not exist in the real world.
 
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guyver01

Lifer
Sep 25, 2000
22,151
5
61
How can you say ignorance, when there was non in existence at the time, how can you call it policy, when no one is in serviced on it. If you don't sign for it, then it does not exist in the real world.

How can you say there was none in existence, if she didn't ask about it?
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,648
201
106
The rules for the shop your way program can be found here https://www.shopyourwayrewards.com/sywr/home_do and click on terms and conditions at the bottom.
They were written November 1, 2010.

The program strictly states that points are not transferrable, and that only the member whose name is on the account is eligible to use the program.

also in the FAQ:
Can I share a Member number with a family member or friend? We do not recommend you share your account information with others. If your friends or family members are interested in Shop Your Way Rewards, encourage them to join for free on this site.

So by being a member of the program, the employee should have at least known the terms and conditions he/she signed up for. (otherwise if you sign up for something without reading all the terms, they are dumb). Regardless if they were informed about them from the employer.

Either way... what was done, probably constitutes program fraud, and should have resulted in a dismissal, likewise, they probably could have terminated the account and forfeited ALL points earned under the program.
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,179
895
126
Was in court/depositions all day, so no lengthy replies.

Duress? errr... no.

Wrongful termination? err... no
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
The rules for the shop your way program can be found here https://www.shopyourwayrewards.com/sywr/home_do and click on terms and conditions at the bottom.
They were written November 1, 2010.

The program strictly states that points are not transferrable, and that only the member whose name is on the account is eligible to use the program.

also in the FAQ:
Can I share a Member number with a family member or friend? We do not recommend you share your account information with others. If your friends or family members are interested in Shop Your Way Rewards, encourage them to join for free on this site.

So by being a member of the program, the employee should have at least known the terms and conditions he/she signed up for. (otherwise if you sign up for something without reading all the terms, they are dumb). Regardless if they were informed about them from the employer.

Either way... what was done, probably constitutes program fraud, and should have resulted in a dismissal, likewise, they probably could have terminated the account and forfeited ALL points earned under the program.


Ah, but if you dig in the rules far enough you find a referral to the company website that lists this under the program rules.

"Associate discount are eligible to participate in the Program; see 88sears.com for Associate enrollment and participation guidelines."


"Infrequent, non-cash gifts of nominal value (less than $50) which you have not requested or encouraged are permissible. Customary and reasonable business meals at which the giver is present are also permissible if occasional rather than frequent. SHC associates should return non-perishable gifts valued over $50.00 and donate perishable gifts to a charitable organization or share them with other associates."

According to their own handbook, it was ok, because it just reward points, and not cash, and certainly less than $50.00 worth. No points were transferred, they were gifted. Even their own programs recommends you don't give out your card number, but does not say strictly not too.
 
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sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,648
201
106
Ah, but if you dig in the rules far enough you find a referral to the company website that lists this under the program rules.

"Associate discount are eligible to participate in the Program; see 88sears.com for Associate enrollment and participation guidelines."


"Infrequent, non-cash gifts of nominal value (less than $50) which you have not requested or encouraged are permissible. Customary and reasonable business meals at which the giver is present are also permissible if occasional rather than frequent. SHC associates should return non-perishable gifts valued over $50.00 and donate perishable gifts to a charitable organization or share them with other associates."

According to their own handbook, it was ok, because it just reward points, and not cash, and certainly less than $50.00 worth. No points were transferred, they were gifted. Even their own programs recommends you don't give out your card number, but does not say strictly not too.



:thumbsdown: Way to post 1 paragraph completely out of context. Read the bolded.

GIFTS, MEALS, ENTERTAINMENT. Except as expressly permitted below, associates may not accept gifts or the conveyance of anything of value, including entertainment, from a vendor (as used in the Code of Conduct, “vendor” means a current or prospective vendor and includes vendors of merchandise, supplies, equipment, software or any other commodity, consultants and service providers, and any other type of entity or organization that SHC may transact business with). You should never accept a gift under any circumstances and regardless of value if it could appear to others that your business judgment has been compromised. Similarly, you may not allow a family member, close friend or other person with whom you have a close personal relationship to accept gifts, services, or preferential treatment from any vendor in exchange for a past, current, or future business relationship with SHC.
Infrequent, non-cash gifts of nominal value (less than $50) which you have not requested or encouraged are permissible. Customary and reasonable business meals at which the giver is present are also permissible if occasional rather than frequent. SHC associates should return non-perishable gifts valued over $50.00 and donate perishable gifts to a charitable organization or share them with other associates.

Doesnt say anythign about a CUSTOMER.
If you want to get technical... what your family member committed is technically a form of embezzlement.
 

Jeeebus

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2006
9,179
895
126
I seriously don't understand why you're still debating this. It doesn't matter whether what she did violated company policy or not. Her boss could have fired her because he suspected she was a martian. Same result.

You asked whether she has a case against Sears.

The answer is no.
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
I seriously don't understand why you're still debating this. It doesn't matter whether what she did violated company policy or not. Her boss could have fired her because he suspected she was a martian. Same result.

You asked whether she has a case against Sears.

The answer is no.

True. I think I will let it rest there, and hope she can at least draw unemployment.

Also I don't think it was out of context. The first quote part of the rules of the program, and its own link, as part of the rules for employees takes you to the other part. The second paragraph specifically says you may not take anything from vendors, not customers.
 
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RocksteadyDotNet

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2008
3,152
1
0
If your friend is slow then how was she made supervisor?

Also, first she said she 'didn't know it was wrong', then changes her story to 'I can't remember if I took them'.
 

minendo

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2001
35,558
16
81
If your friend is slow then how was she made supervisor?

Also, first she said she 'didn't know it was wrong', then changes her story to 'I can't remember if I took them'.

We are talking about Sears Holdings here. This question is irrelevant.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
I seriously don't understand why you're still debating this. It doesn't matter whether what she did violated company policy or not. Her boss could have fired her because he suspected she was a martian. Same result.

You asked whether she has a case against Sears.

The answer is no.

Sure. And she could sue for wrongful termination if management allowed others to accumulate reward points even if it was against company policy.

One obstacle is that they had her sign that paperwork. But again, it can be argued that it was under duress.

More times than not, when these things go to court, a settlement is reached.

And again, I'm not sure why the OP is asking and debating this here when nobody here can provide an appropriate answer. I hope he talks to an actual lawyer before making providing any guidance.
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
If your friend is slow then how was she made supervisor?

Also, first she said she 'didn't know it was wrong', then changes her story to 'I can't remember if I took them'.

Don't know.

Part of that is my typing, remembering what she told me. I think they had her so turned around by telling her she would be taken out by the police, she did not know what she was saying or writing she was so upset.

I would think if it was intentional, she would have had multiple occurrences like the other employees they fired. This was from over month ago, so I don't think she decided to go Bonny and Clyde on them because she had too much opportunity as time went on. I think she did make a mistake, but it was handled totally inappropriately. It could have been handled better. Total lack of leadership and critical thinking on their part. It's just a shame someone is trying to work hard, and take care of her kids, and get put down in a totally unnecessary fashion.

She is talking to a couple of attorneys. I think the first thing is to what and see what unemployment does.

Some has questioned about asking forums. You never know when sometimes you might get a person that is in the right position that works in these places that might take an interest in the problem and decide to help or at least look into the matter. Not everyone in places like these are dimwitted simpletons, and do care about employees at times.

It kind of reminds me of a leadership class we had at work. It had a nice power point presentation about how to make your employees better, and bring them over to the company way of thinking. Then the lecturer stands up and talks about the percentage of employees. 23% will do what ever you ask them too no matter how bad it is, and still come back for more, 55% will do whats asked of them and go home with no problem, and the rest, what ever the percentage, does not do it correctly and complains and causes trouble. Then he proclaims its his goal to remove that remaining number form the work force by just getting rid of them, totally ignoring everything that was just talked about, helping those struggling employees, and help bring them over to the company way of thinking and making it more productive place, and to be more cost effective. All the while the rest of the sheep just sat there agreeing with him, totally missing the point of the class.
 
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RocksteadyDotNet

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2008
3,152
1
0
Don't know.

Part of that is my typing, remembering what she told me. I think they had her so turned around by telling her she would be taken out by the police, she did not know what she was saying or writing she was so upset.

I would think if it was intentional, she would have had multiple occurrences like the other employees they fired. This was from over month ago, so I don't think she decided to go Bonny and Clyde on them because she had too much opportunity as time went on. I think she did make a mistake, but it was handled totally inappropriately. It could have been handled better. Total lack of leadership and critical thinking on their part. It's just a shame someone is trying to work hard, and take care of her kids, and get put down in a totally unnecessary fashion.

She is talking to a couple of attorneys. I think the first thing is to what and see what unemployment does.

She was probably treated poorly, but so what?

Lifes hard, get another job.

You can't go around suing everyone that treats you badly.

What is it with Americans and suing?! Everyone want's a fucking handout.
 

james1701

Golden Member
Sep 14, 2007
1,873
59
91
That's easy for you to say, when unemployment is what it is here. That's easier said than done. It took her 4 months to get this one.

Nobody said anything about a handout, its a question if they broke the law. Forcing an employee to sign a false statement in order to terminate her.