Elon Musk: Universal Basic Income will be necessary

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
Do you like apples? Neither you nor Mongrel were able to form a cogent argument against what I said so you attack me with an ad hominem accusing me of having a "very poorly skewed outlook on life in general". Do either of you realize what a poorly skewed outlook on life in general that makes YOU seem to have? I don't agree with what this guy has to say so I'm going to attack him instead of pointing out why what he said is wrong? You are a fool for following down his path. How you like them apples?

Now ordinarily I wouldn't make the stupid mistake of using this tactic of ad hom attack like calling someone a fool, but some folks are unable to see faults in themselves while having no difficulty at all detecting faults in others. So I thought I'd give you an apple so that you might see. Who knew apples were so good for your vision? Of course I'm not talking about vision using your eyes.
 
Last edited:

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
You mean like on a chess board?

Programming an algorithm that wins in chess and programming software that writes itself are two different things -- in one scenario a programmer writes an algorithm, while in the other, a chaotic and 'taught' network of weightings and numbers tries to do so without any fault. Neural networks (regardless of types) are nowhere close to advanced enough to be used to replace doctors, lawyers, engineers, economists nor the programmers that write them.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,530
5,047
136
Programming an algorithm that wins in chess and programming software that writes itself are two different things -- in one scenario a programmer writes an algorithm, while in the other, a chaotic and 'taught' network of weightings and numbers tries to do so without any fault. Neural networks (regardless of types) are nowhere close to advanced enough to be used to replace doctors, lawyers, engineers, economists nor the programmers that write them.


I think you may want to rethink your position. Here are two quite interesting articles describing the scenario you, and a lot of professionals, state won't happen. Honestly, take time to read them. Seems the legal profession is already being changed with technology and the others are on their way.

iLawyer: What Happens When Computers Replace Attorneys?
(The Atlantic, 2012)

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...pens-when-computers-replace-attorneys/258688/

In the end, after you've stripped away their six-figure degrees, their state bar memberships, and their proclivity for capitalizing Odd Words, lawyers are just another breed of knowledge worker. They're paid to research, analyze, write, and argue -- not unlike an academic, a journalist, or an accountant. So when software comes along that's smarter or more efficient at those tasks than a human with a JD, it spells trouble.

The discovery process is all about cognition, the ability of people to look at endless bails of info and separate the wheat from the chaff. For many years, it was also extremely profitable for law firms, which billed hundreds of dollars an hour for associates to glance at thousands upon thousands (if not millions) of documents, and note whether they might have some passing relevance to the case at hand.

And now comes the rise of the machines -- or, more precisely, the search engines. For a while now, attorneys have employed manual keyword searches to sort through the gigabytes of information involved in these cases. But as the WSJ reports, more firms are beginning to use a technology known as "predictive coding," which essentially automates the process at one-tenth the cost. Recently, a magistrate judge in a major Virginia employment discrimination suit ruled that the defense could use predictive coding to sort through their own data, despite objections by the plaintiffs who worried it might not pick up all the relevant documents.


Technology Will Replace Many Doctors, Lawyers, and Other Professionals
(Harvard Business Review, Oct. 2016)
https://hbr.org/2016/10/robots-will-replace-doctors-lawyers-and-other-professionals

Faced with the claim that AI and robots are poised to replace most of today’s workforce, most mainstream professionals — doctors, lawyers, accountants, and so on — believe they will emerge largely unscathed. During our consulting work and at conferences, we regularly hear practitioners concede that routine work can be taken on by machines, but they maintain that human experts will always be needed for the tricky stuff that calls for judgment, creativity, and empathy.

Our research and analysis challenges the idea that these professionals will be spared. We expect that within decades the traditional professions will be dismantled, leaving most, but not all, professionals to be replaced by less-expert people, new types of experts, and high-performing systems.


 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,689
10,954
136
I'll just throw this out there. Funny how people like Musk are coming to similar conclusions.

Though honestly the UBI was the least likely outcome I would have imagined.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
I think you may want to rethink your position. Here are two quite interesting articles describing the scenario you, and a lot of professionals, state won't happen. Honestly, take time to read them. Seems the legal profession is already being changed with technology and the others are on their way.

iLawyer: What Happens When Computers Replace Attorneys?
(The Atlantic, 2012)

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...pens-when-computers-replace-attorneys/258688/

Technology Will Replace Many Doctors, Lawyers, and Other Professionals
(Harvard Business Review, Oct. 2016)
https://hbr.org/2016/10/robots-will-replace-doctors-lawyers-and-other-professionals

Predictive coding is a great example of what I'm talking about. See what I posted:

Programming an algorithm that wins in chess and programming software that writes itself are two different things -- in one scenario a programmer writes an algorithm, while in the other, a chaotic and 'taught' network of weightings and numbers tries to do so without any fault.

You need to realise how this actually works so you can understand why I say deep learning is not a catch-all for every human problem, this is a good example. Input needs to be fed into a neural network then its output tested and verified by lawyers in order for predictive coding to be accurate or at the bare minimum work as intended - i.e., feed it crap data and it outputs exactly what you gave it. Predictive coding is a labour augmenting tool that vastly improves the efficiency of one part of a lawyer's job; it doesn't replace them, it helps them.

As for your second link, it's not very technical and talks about information as a service (uses WebMD as an example). Nothing interesting talking points about AI or deep learning either.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,596
475
126
The biggest impediment IMO will be that UBI would have to be funded by taxes on the ultra wealthy and powerful owners of the automation.
We can already see how that fight is going.

This is why European first world countries are more likely to adopt a UBI as it becomes apparent that automation is reducing the jobs available. They already accept higher taxes for the common good when it comes to universal health care.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I know a family member who believes that is an issue... but I cannot comprehend it. Surely only the mentally ill require being pressed into labor in order to "find meaning". Instead of being forced into doing something you do not want, people will have the time to take up tasks that actually interest them. Want to keep busy? You'll find a way. How is self motivation even an issue?

Maybe it's beaten dog syndrome. Or more aptly, something slaves once experienced the day they were freed.
I for one welcome that day.
How does automation and IT not eventually take away a high percentage of our jobs? It isn't even just in manufacturing. We're already seen automated checkout taking away retail jobs, chat boxes taking away jobs in telephone customer service, robot cleaners taking away jobs in home services. Not everyone can be retrained for brain intensive work that can't be done by robots or computers. It may be very far off, but like I said above, it isn't if, it's when.

It eventually will take your job away as well as many if not most professional positions. Not today but in a generation or two at most. At that point it's hard to imagine that virtual intelligences won't make DeepMind look like a '70's calculator. All of law, all decisions, all precidents from all time sophistically reviewed by a mechanism equal to a human mind or better. The better programmer wins.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I'll just throw this out there. Funny how people like Musk are coming to similar conclusions.

Though honestly the UBI was the least likely outcome I would have imagined.

Bill Gates recently said that tens of millions could die because of biological terrorism. My response? "And"?

I see Musk as someone who sees bodies strewn about in a bomb strike saying "Might want to have that looked at". I don't know how more superficial a statement that he could make.

Given the certainty that jobs will evaporate at all levels then we are going to do something or not and no alternatives are satisfactory. Will Musk be content to live on a few hundred thousand dollars a year while all his effort goes to taxes to support those put out of work? Gates? Soros? Trump? Pick a 0.01 percenter and ask if they will give up not only their income but wealth to be upper middle class? That's what it will eventually take when "income" enters into the discussion.

A different solution is that an authoritarian state allocates blocks of resources. All property and wealth is limited and reallocated. The very concept of money is outlawed once people are no longer needed. Greed effectively becomes a criminal act.

Huge societal changes where freedoms are redefined and harsh penalties for violations would need to follow when dealing with a species which has lost its evolved mandate centered in survival and resulting social structures and norms.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,689
10,954
136
Bill Gates recently said that tens of millions could die because of biological terrorism. My response? "And"?

People have been talking about chemical and biological weapons for over a hundred years, though. Most of the credible noise about the impending doom of labor-based capitalist economies is rather recent, even if the signs go back awhile.

Sure Marx predicted it in his own fashion. He made the mistake of reducing common people to laborers, though. Most of us specifically will not be laborers "in the future" since the economy will outgrow us.

I see Musk as someone who sees bodies strewn about in a bomb strike saying "Might want to have that looked at". I don't know how more superficial a statement that he could make.

Consider this: of all the Presidential candidates that ran in 2016, exactly 0 of them made a major platform out of the fact that our future economy simply will not include certain people. I'll grant that the U6 category has gone from ~18% to ~10% over the last seven years, but remember that people in u6 have to at least "be marginally attached to the labor force". Many have simply fallen out of the labor pool entirely.

Now we have the civilian workforce participation rate, which has fallen to 62.9% as of Jan 2017 (was higher in 2010, despite the higher u6 unemployment rate back then):

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Given the certainty that jobs will evaporate at all levels then we are going to do something or not and no alternatives are satisfactory. Will Musk be content to live on a few hundred thousand dollars a year while all his effort goes to taxes to support those put out of work? Gates? Soros? Trump? Pick a 0.01 percenter and ask if they will give up not only their income but wealth to be upper middle class? That's what it will eventually take when "income" enters into the discussion

I don't know that people like Musk, Gates, Soros, or Trump will even need money, depending on how they invest in the present. Seize control of the right production mechanisms and you can redefine wealth without relying on taxable fiat of any kind.

A different solution is that an authoritarian state allocates blocks of resources. All property and wealth is limited and reallocated. The very concept of money is outlawed once people are no longer needed. Greed effectively becomes a criminal act

We - the United States - just got finished waging economic warfare against a country a). dedicated to those principals and b). determined to spread them. You can already see how other major collectivist societies like China are drifting away from simple oligarchy towards "sandbox" Fascism. Things will not be quite so cut-and-dried.

Huge societal changes where freedoms are redefined and harsh penalties for violations would need to follow when dealing with a species which has lost its evolved mandate centered in survival and resulting social structures and norms.

Imagine for a moment that someone like Donald Trump or Rodrigo Duterte comes into control of this system responsible for huge societal changes and harsh penalties.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
It's hard to imagine, but I feel like if it became that efficient that it reached what is basically zero need for labor, then I think it is bound to collapse in on itself, and we just revert to an agrarian society. The only issue is if the robots or government look to enforce participation into the spending and consuming cycle, and then it basically is like The Matrix.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
People have been talking about chemical and biological weapons for over a hundred years, though. Most of the credible noise about the impending doom of labor-based capitalist economies is rather recent, even if the signs go back awhile.

Sure Marx predicted it in his own fashion. He made the mistake of reducing common people to laborers, though. Most of us specifically will not be laborers "in the future" since the economy will outgrow us.



Consider this: of all the Presidential candidates that ran in 2016, exactly 0 of them made a major platform out of the fact that our future economy simply will not include certain people. I'll grant that the U6 category has gone from ~18% to ~10% over the last seven years, but remember that people in u6 have to at least "be marginally attached to the labor force". Many have simply fallen out of the labor pool entirely.

Now we have the civilian workforce participation rate, which has fallen to 62.9% as of Jan 2017 (was higher in 2010, despite the higher u6 unemployment rate back then):

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000



I don't know that people like Musk, Gates, Soros, or Trump will even need money, depending on how they invest in the present. Seize control of the right production mechanisms and you can redefine wealth without relying on taxable fiat of any kind.



We - the United States - just got finished waging economic warfare against a country a). dedicated to those principals and b). determined to spread them. You can already see how other major collectivist societies like China are drifting away from simple oligarchy towards "sandbox" Fascism. Things will not be quite so cut-and-dried.



Imagine for a moment that someone like Donald Trump or Rodrigo Duterte comes into control of this system responsible for huge societal changes and harsh penalties.


You make good points and certainly the only constant about the future is that it is sure to be what one does not expect given enough time. In the case of constantly falling job opportunities we nevertheless have problems which are not amenable to traditional solutions and when upheaval occurs trouble follows.

If you agree, what do you see as a viable alternative? Social management by governments tend to head to authoritarian application of what are or were policies once not considered viable. The loss of privacy with great support from many in the name of "security" is an example. Just push the fear button and people will surrender themself eventually.

Naturally we would want to prevent this as you allude to in your last paragraph, but whether the government chooses to realize problems which already exist does not mean they will always be able to do so. Things will likely be left until a "crisis" that can be used for political hay because doing is far less important than being seen to be concerned.

Foresight though? We have no leaders who have that facility I know of.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,105
5,640
126
It's hard to imagine, but I feel like if it became that efficient that it reached what is basically zero need for labor, then I think it is bound to collapse in on itself, and we just revert to an agrarian society. The only issue is if the robots or government look to enforce participation into the spending and consuming cycle, and then it basically is like The Matrix.

There is not enough Land to support an Agrarian society. At current population levels anyway.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
Pretty much anywhere these days.

In the USA there is 8 acres per person of population. Sources indicate that 1/4 of that is arable land, but the average amount of arable land that a person needs is 1 acre. So we have an arable land surplus in the USA.

Obviously it would take an enormous collapse and redistribution of property in order to actually get food into mouths in an agrarian society, but proposing universal basic income and actually removing the requirement for essentially all labor, is actually probably more difficult.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I guess that all depends on where you live right? Are you talking about the world or specific countries?

The problem is that if everyone became farmers then we'd have far more people than we can use. Besides "productivity" requires the most efficient processes win, and that is machines.

What I think we should consider is concurrent technology development, as you say a Matrix, where people choose to move to a virtual reality which cannot be discerned from reality. Think Inception. Of course a society of such people may eventually forget they are in a simulation and worry about jobs so create an alternate reality, in which they forget...

Creepy, eh?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,689
10,954
136
You make good points and certainly the only constant about the future is that it is sure to be what one does not expect given enough time. In the case of constantly falling job opportunities we nevertheless have problems which are not amenable to traditional solutions and when upheaval occurs trouble follows.

If you agree, what do you see as a viable alternative? Social management by governments tend to head to authoritarian application of what are or were policies once not considered viable. The loss of privacy with great support from many in the name of "security" is an example. Just push the fear button and people will surrender themself eventually.

Naturally we would want to prevent this as you allude to in your last paragraph, but whether the government chooses to realize problems which already exist does not mean they will always be able to do so. Things will likely be left until a "crisis" that can be used for political hay because doing is far less important than being seen to be concerned.

Foresight though? We have no leaders who have that facility I know of.

I have considered several possibilities, not all of them very good.

First, let's examine players like Musk, Gates, et al. They are wildcards. Very powerful wildcards.

The first thing to understand about them is that they have been paying attention to 20th century authoritarians and are learning from their playbook. One critical element of maintaining a lasting dictatorship/oligarchy back then was information control; a major subset of that was controlling education.

If you can control education, you can alter how your people will react to information for generations.

We can already see how major "information age" companies like MS and Google want to manipulate the education system. Overtly it appears that they want something relatively simple, such as to reduce the market value of IT/programming talent by encouraging market saturation in STEM/STEAM fields. Covertly I expect that someone, somewhere managing their programs understands that in the future, they'll have to figure out how to mine top talent from classes of people with wildly disparate economic advantages - the poor to the ultra-rich.

Future "big money players" will need access to the best of the best of humanity in every country of the planet regardless of background. They need those people to have a "fair" shot at an education since those who live in poverty with no childhood education may never reach their full potential. MS, Google, etc. want that 1-2% of humanity that falls into the "genius" category. They want to further sift through those folks to get access to those who have the right combination of talent, ambition, and drive to make the future happen.

Big money players also want fungibility of lesser HR assets. They wanted stuff like the TPP to facilitate ease of moving labor across borders without visas or other hassles. Stuff like H1B is just the beginning. They want corporate citizenships that are basically good all the world over, and they want to be able to move people between countries at-will without the hassle of border checks. For them, sovereignty is an impediment. Expect continued pressure in that direction, once they figure out how to overcome current nationalist movements.

In the long run, I expect this "corporatist" future to wind up similar to what you find in any number of cyberpunk novels, with a few oddball exceptions.

1). Non-employables - people not good for much of anything - may be used as a massive group of focus testers when marketing products aimed at the minority who can still produce income of some sort. Imagine large complexes full of people subdivided into marketing cadres (18-34, 35-49, 50-65, etc) living in fully-branded homes with elcheapo versions of products provided to them attending media events on a regular basis to shill brands in hopes of attracting attention from a few buyers with absurd buying potential. As an added bonus there will probably be a inter-corporate system for mining these people as a talent pool so that anyone who pops up as a child in one of these "branded" communities with talent can be scooped up and groomed for bigger things in much the same fashion as the Soviets once whisked children away to special academies back in the day.

2). Currency either won't be used at all, or will be untrackable crypto. There will be a few standards for transactions between corporate groups, and each corporate group will have its own untrackable crypto internal to its own organization. That will reduce taxability since it will be impossible for governments to trace currency exchange.

3). Large groups of people will be moved around based on the relative cost of their labor versus the average labor cost of the target market. The goal is to drive down labor costs, even when maybe only 20-30% (or less) of the people in any given country can command any income at all.

Applying counterpressure to this future are nationalist groups (they don't like open borders), 20th-century dictatorships/oligarchies that have yet to yield control to big money players (China is the notable exception here), and socialist countries that already have cradle-to-grave meddling in the lives of citizens.

The socialist countries will be "first to go" since their systems of taxation will be short-circuited. Even among those who still pay taxes, you will have a situation where maybe 10% of the population is bankrolling the entire country. Those who pay the bills ultimately call the shots. Democracy can not last long under those conditions.

Nationalist groups will ultimately be compromised from the inside as money starts to corrupt anyone who involves themselves in political systems. You may have local conditions that are hostile to globalization of the economy, but those will ultimately be only speedbumps. Have a look at the Trump administration for several examples of this. How cozy they are with the banks.

China will continue to attempt to keep all economic activity in a sandbox owned and managed from the outside by their own Communist party. Whether or not party officials can be corrupted remains to be seen. Their old guard - along with military sympathizers - will periodically step in to crack the whip and keep money players out of power positions. Remember that they own 30-40% of many corporations, and that they have the ability to arbitrarily redirect corporate activity as they see fit. There will be a massive, constant power struggle at the top. How it plays out is anyone's guess.

Some of what I have said here may seem fantastical or absurd, but again . . . you're talking about large percentages of the populations of "developed" countries quickly suffering reduction in labor market value to the point that they are on par with people from countries like modern Niger or Bangledesh. It will be a huge redirection of economic and political power into the elites that either a). have equity or b). talent. No conspiracy required. It'll happen on its own as a result of market forces and technological advancements.

In a better world, some big-money players would sit down and figure out how to share equity with people so that everyone would have a stake in the future, possibly with the caveat that we'd have to be gutsy enough for to people suffer failure conditions if they screw things up too many times too badly. Maybe limit exactly how much profit someone can expect to extract from a corporation on a per-dollar (or per-unit-of-currency) basis. At the present I see no motion in that direction.

Also I do not expect widespread expansion of socialism or totalitarianism, at least not given the current trends. The nationalists don't have it in them to do that, and everyone has their hand out looking for more money. It's too easy to change people's minds in the right places.
 
Last edited:

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
The problem is that if everyone became farmers then we'd have far more people than we can use. Besides "productivity" requires the most efficient processes win, and that is machines.

What I think we should consider is concurrent technology development, as you say a Matrix, where people choose to move to a virtual reality which cannot be discerned from reality. Think Inception. Of course a society of such people may eventually forget they are in a simulation and worry about jobs so create an alternate reality, in which they forget...

Creepy, eh?

As to the first, not necessarily, remember the story of the fisherman and the businessman? Not everything has to be industrialized.

We technically need very little, we want a lot, but didn't always. I'm kind of thinking that some people might choose to "opt out" of this kind of society.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
I have considered several possibilities, not all of them very good.

First, let's examine players like Musk, Gates, et al. They are wildcards. Very powerful wildcards.

The first thing to understand about them is that they have been paying attention to 20th century authoritarians and are learning from their playbook. One critical element of maintaining a lasting dictatorship/oligarchy back then was information control; a major subset of that was controlling education.

If you can control education, you can alter how your people will react to information for generations.

We can already see how major "information age" companies like MS and Google want to manipulate the education system. Overtly it appears that they want something relatively simple, such as to reduce the market value of IT/programming talent by encouraging market saturation in STEM/STEAM fields. Covertly I expect that someone, somewhere managing their programs understands that in the future, they'll have to figure out how to mine top talent from classes of people with wildly disparate economic advantages - the poor to the ultra-rich.

Future "big money players" will need access to the best of the best of humanity in every country of the planet regardless of background. They need those people to have a "fair" shot at an education since those who live in poverty with no childhood education may never reach their full potential. MS, Google, etc. want that 1-2% of humanity that falls into the "genius" category. They want to further sift through those folks to get access to those who have the right combination of talent, ambition, and drive to make the future happen.

Big money players also want fungibility of lesser HR assets. They wanted stuff like the TPP to facilitate ease of moving labor across borders without visas or other hassles. Stuff like H1B is just the beginning. They want corporate citizenships that are basically good all the world over, and they want to be able to move people between countries at-will without the hassle of border checks. For them, sovereignty is an impediment. Expect continued pressure in that direction, once they figure out how to overcome current nationalist movements.

In the long run, I expect this "corporatist" future to wind up similar to what you find in any number of cyberpunk novels, with a few oddball exceptions.

1). Non-employables - people not good for much of anything - may be used as a massive group of focus testers when marketing products aimed at the minority who can still produce income of some sort. Imagine large complexes full of people subdivided into marketing cadres (18-34, 35-49, 50-65, etc) living in fully-branded homes with elcheapo versions of products provided to them attending media events on a regular basis to shill brands in hopes of attracting attention from a few buyers with absurd buying potential. As an added bonus there will probably be a inter-corporate system for mining these people as a talent pool so that anyone who pops up as a child in one of these "branded" communities with talent can be scooped up and groomed for bigger things in much the same fashion as the Soviets once whisked children away to special academies back in the day.

2). Currency either won't be used at all, or will be untrackable crypto. There will be a few standards for transactions between corporate groups, and each corporate group will have its own untrackable crypto internal to its own organization. That will reduce taxability since it will be impossible for governments to trace currency exchange.

3). Large groups of people will be moved around based on the relative cost of their labor versus the average labor cost of the target market. The goal is to drive down labor costs, even when maybe only 20-30% (or less) of the people in any given country can command any income at all.

Applying counterpressure to this future are nationalist groups (they don't like open borders), 20th-century dictatorships/oligarchies that have yet to yield control to big money players (China is the notable exception here), and socialist countries that already have cradle-to-grave meddling in the lives of citizens.

The socialist countries will be "first to go" since their systems of taxation will be short-circuited. Even among those who still pay taxes, you will have a situation where maybe 10% of the population is bankrolling the entire country. Those who pay the bills ultimately call the shots. Democracy can not last long under those conditions.

Nationalist groups will ultimately be compromised from the inside as money starts to corrupt anyone who involves themselves in political systems. You may have local conditions that are hostile to globalization of the economy, but those will ultimately be only speedbumps. Have a look at the Trump administration for several examples of this. How cozy they are with the banks.

China will continue to attempt to keep all economic activity in a sandbox owned and managed from the outside by their own Communist party. Whether or not party officials can be corrupted remains to be seen. Their old guard - along with military sympathizers - will periodically step in to crack the whip and keep money players out of power positions. Remember that they own 30-40% of many corporations, and that they have the ability to arbitrarily redirect corporate activity as they see fit. There will be a massive, constant power struggle at the top. How it plays out is anyone's guess.

Some of what I have said here may seem fantastical or absurd, but again . . . you're talking about large percentages of the populations of "developed" countries quickly suffering reduction in labor market value to the point that they are on par with people from countries like modern Niger or Bangledesh. It will be a huge redirection of economic and political power into the elites that either a). have equity or b). talent. No conspiracy required. It'll happen on its own as a result of market forces and technological advancements.

In a better world, some big-money players would sit down and figure out how to share equity with people so that everyone would have a stake in the future, possibly with the caveat that we'd have to be gutsy enough to people suffer failure conditions if they screw things up too many times too badly. Maybe limit exactly how much profit someone can expect to extract from a corporation on a per-dollar (or per-unit-of-currency) basis. At the present I see no motion in that direction.

Also I do not expect widespread expansion of socialism or totalitarianism, at least not given the current trends. The nationalists don't have it in them to do that, and everyone has their hand out looking for more money. It's too easy to change people's minds in the right places.

Reasonable predictions. Perhaps I should define authoritarian contextually. I don't mean overt totalitarianism but behind the scenes control by a handful of people we never know. Five years ago I would say that a prescription for tin foil hats should be given, but not now. A few people making decisions which steer society in the direction it wishes, while the populations believes in the figureheads and suddenly four fingers are five.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,244
14,963
136
What I found funny is that if you really look at everyone's replies, what you will find is that all answers point to government solutions. On our current path that's not a good thing, seeing as we currently have a pretty dysfunctional government at the moment. Now if we can get back to a more reasonable and functional government, the possibilities will be endless, with space, science, and art bringing in the next golden age.

I'm not hopeful.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
What I found funny is that if you really look at everyone's replies, what you will find is that all answers point to government solutions. On our current path that's not a good thing, seeing as we currently have a pretty dysfunctional government at the moment. Now if we can get back to a more reasonable and functional government, the possibilities will be endless, with space, science, and art bringing in the next golden age.

I'm not hopeful.

This level of industry can't be supported without enormous government subsidy. So I think that is why they are all part of the "solution" (problem).
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
What I found funny is that if you really look at everyone's replies, what you will find is that all answers point to government solutions. On our current path that's not a good thing, seeing as we currently have a pretty dysfunctional government at the moment. Now if we can get back to a more reasonable and functional government, the possibilities will be endless, with space, science, and art bringing in the next golden age.

I'm not hopeful.

Given that jobs are vanishing and there are no replacements for them with the eventual outcome effectively being an unemployed society and a dead economy, how do you think government in any form we recognize can fix this?

I'm struggling for a fair means and I find none which offer a solution to the basic problem of a humanity which has lost its ability to fulfill a basic evolutionary need, provide for one's survival.

Universal income is a kludge, a short term finger in the dike. No magic Star Trek solutions here. There won't be unlimited resources because we live in a limited world.

What politicians of any stripe can fix this and how?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
This level of industry can't be supported without enormous government subsidy. So I think that is why they are all part of the "solution" (problem).

But the government subsidizes by taxes on the producers, which get their funds from employment and the production of goods and services. When all of that is gone just how does that work?