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Eli Manning or Big Ben Rothlesberger.

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Originally posted by: Argo
Originally posted by: LethalWolfe
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
Peyton wasn't sh!t the first few years he started playing as well.


Um, you might want to look at his stats. Peyton came out swinging from day 1 (unlike the last big QB the Colts drafted, Jeff George). Peyton is one of the rare players that doesn't need a season or two or three under his belt to start excelling. He did it right out of the gate.


Lethal

First 4 games - Payton had 2 TDs and 8 ints. How is that swinging? He finished the season with 26 TDs and 28 INTs. And he did have Marvin Harrison and Marshal Faulk, if I'm not mistaken.

He also threw for 3700 yards, had an inferior OL, and an even crappier D than they have now. Given the situation he had a much better rookie year than anyone would have guessed. The next year he threw for 26 TDs, 15 INTs, 4100yrds and a rating of 90.7. His third year in he threw 33 TDs(career high until this season), 15 INTs, 4400yrds, and had a rating of 94.7. 12,000yrds, 85 TDs, 58 INTs... not bad for someone who "sucked" his first few seasons.

Peyton never looked like he was in over his head, but he did look like he was learning the ropes (which is what being a rookie is about). Compare Manning and Leaf. One handled the move from college to the NFL very well and one did not. How many rookie QB's who get drafted to be a crappy team's savior actually do it and do it as quickly as Manning did?


Lethal
 
Originally posted by: classy
I just laugh at so called fans talking things they are clueless about. Trying to judge a rookie qb or a rookie nhl goalie is like looking at a new born deciding if he'll be a doctor or not. Its so stupid it makes no sense. Ben is riding the coat tails of a wave of success. That doesn't diminish his talents, but any fool thats not drinking or taking drugs can clearly look at and see the Steelers success is not about Ben at all. His last game I thought he played very well. It was the first game in which I think he may have been the difference. Which by the way was his 11th start. Eli has nobody, lol, but Eli right now. Deion Sanders said after the game that the offense was one of the worst he had ever seen. He said the play calling was so predicatble and the veteran players can't make plays. So to compare the two is really ridiculous. Now about the trade talk is fair game, in about 3-4 years from now. If Eli becomes a great qb like his brother or Favre, along that line that first round pick they gave up will be nothing. Cause in actuality thats all they gave up was a first round pick and the 3rd rounder of that year, 5th round picks you'll trade them everyday and twice on Sunday. In short look at this way, people who spoke of Jordan early in his career, although a great player, they said he would never win a championship. Now he is almost without debate is regarded as the greatest ever, 6 championships later. Certain positions in sports you can't judge in a year and sometimes as many as 3 or 4 if guy will be great. NFL QB is number 1 on that list.

:roll:

showing what "classy" is all about, again.

btw, the discussion of whethor or not the giants made a good or bad move is a legitimate one. even if eli manning ends up being a decent qb, he will always be compared with Ben Rothlesburger.

it doesn't take an exceptionally knowledgable fan to understand that.

3 draft choices and what could have been Ben for Eli. ya, that was a really good trade.
 
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Did you just use college football as an indicator of a QB's talent in the NFL? lmao, do you know how many QB's won HEISMANS yet flopped in the NFL? Also, comparing a college team from 1 year to the next is ridiculous. None of those teams listed are exactly the same as last year. You should really stop with the football analysis, first Ray Lewis is overrated and now you're using a different year's college stats to project an NFL player's talent? Beautiful.
You know what they say about opinions. Yours is no different. You say I shouldn't use college performance as an indicator of NFL performance?
So why do all these top QB draftees have great college stats year in and year out? You think it might be because that's what the pro scouts use, too? If not, what the hell else can they use?
They measure up QB's based on their physical assets, performance and the competition they face makes a difference, too.
I think that Rivers will be better ultimately (and so did Dan Marino and Marty Schottenheimer) than the other two. So do a lot of the experts.
Ben is in an ideal situation. Put Rivers or Manning at QB in Pittburgh, and they're likely doing as well or better.
Some would say Rivers is in an ideal situation, where he isn't expected to be a saviour like Manning is.

And you didn't get what I said about Ray Lewis. I meant that he was overrated from the standpoint that he gets all the publicity, when there are other linebackers that are just as good that you hardly ever hear of. Why does he get all the pub?
No, college performance is an inaccurate guage of talent, it's a flip of the coin how a player will perform in the NFL. For every ounce of breath you waste pimping Phillip Rivers, I can tell you he is the next Ryan Leaf, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffel, Gino Torretta, Eric Crouch, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer, Tommie Frazier, Craig Erickson, Jeff George, or Chris Weinke (and countless other QB's) who were hyped. For example, Joe Montana was drafted in the third round, Favre 2nd, even Trent Green was drafted in the 8th round!!

What do you mean overrated in a publicity standpoint? If you went to the Pro Bowl 7 years in a row (this will be his 8th straight), led the league in tackles 4 years, was named NFL Defensive MVP twice (just last year), and are still 2nd in the league in tackles you are going to get publicity. I don't see how you can even assign an "overrated" status regarding publicity with an icon and legend such as Ray Lewis. 😕

The players are drafted higher or lower for whatever reason, but if you think Joe Montana, Green, or even Favre were only good in the Pros, you are sadly mistaken.

"Brett Favre set the school records at Southern Miss for passing yards (8,193), pass attempts (1,234) completions (656), passing percentage (89.5 percent) and touchdowns (55). His 1.56 interception ration was the lowest among the 50 top rank passers in the NCAA He did this after overcoming a life-threatening car accident the summer before his senior year of college."

"Trent Green, a St. Louis native, played football for the IU Hoosiers from 1990 to 1992. In 1991, he had IU's top passing season ever with 2,627 yards, leading IU to a 7-4-1 record and a 24-0 win over Baylor in the Copper Bowl."

"As a redshirt junior at Notre Dame in 1977, after sitting out the previous season because of a separated shoulder, Montana took the Irish to a national championship. In his career he led them to five improbable fourth-quarter comebacks (deficits ranging from eight to 22 points)."

Fact is, there are too many intangibles.
 
Originally posted by: JDub02
It's funny to see the excuses the Ben-haters come up with.

For the record, the Steelers do not have a pro-bowl line. They have a Pro Bowl guard in Alan Faneca. The rest of the line is either second string or injured. This is a line that let Ben get sacked 7 times in 1 game. This is almost the same Steelers team that went 6-10 last year. They added Ben and Duce ... and Duce has been out.


Finally someone speaks the truth, and this from a Bills fan(me, that is). 🙂
 
Given enough time I think anyone can be good in the NFL... look at the season Jon Kitna had with the Bengals last season and how long he's been in the league. How about Brian Griese and his current season in Tampa Bay (Not a winning record, but he's playing great), how about Jake Delhomme last season?

given enough opportunity and the right system, anyone can be good in the league.

Do I think Ben will be good long term? Maybe, leaning towards yes.
Do I think Phillip Rivers will be good long term? Dunno, he hasn't seen a minute of playing time.
Do I think Eli Manning will be good long term? Probably, but god I hope he isn't... that little bastard cried his way out of San Diego because they had a team that consistantly had a losing record, and he didn't want to carry the load of a team in struggles. I'm happy to see Eli struggling with a team that supposedly doesn't have a losing record, because right now, the team that consistantly has a losing record, has a better record than the team he's starting on. ....Stupid Fu<k
 
Leftwich and Pennington...hmm Mac QBs seem to be fairly successful in the NFL... Eli != Payton, just because your last name is Manning does not make you the best QB in the land. Put Peyton in the Giants and you easily don't have a record breaking season. Running game + 5 players who can play role of reciever very well = QB's heaven.

I'm not sure why Rivers has been pimped up so much, he seemed like the least apealing of the 3 recievers from what I observed of them in college. MU didn't even really have a running game, Ben would work out of the shotgun nearly all the time meaning defenses could easily focus on the pass but that didn't seem to bother Ben. I think it must have been that one game vs. Iowa that turned peopple off to him, terrible game for Ben, 0TDs 4INTs but the rest of the season he was phenominal.

Sure his stats aren't high but he's doing things better than most veteran QBs, such as a high conversion rate on 3rd down and he's one of the top QBs in the 4th quater - even after having a loust first half or first 3 quarters...The ability to lead the team to victory when the going gets tough, the guy never seems to flinch. You can claim he's had a few "rookie" games but in none of the games did he play poor at the end of the game, he finished strong after overcoming it, that's something "rookies" don't do.

Right now with such an incredible head start, its hard to say that Ben won't be the better of the 3 QBs with only 3 years time. It can't be an easy task to rebound from the season Eli is currently having, and it'd take a while for Ben to fall from how far he's already climbed...and Rivers? Well with the way Brees is playing Rivers might not get any starts for another year, or until Brees is hurt...
 
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Leftwich and Pennington...hmm Mac QBs seem to be fairly successful in the NFL... Eli != Payton, just because your last name is Manning does not make you the best QB in the land. Put Peyton in the Giants and you easily don't have a record breaking season. Running game + 5 players who can play role of reciever very well = QB's heaven.

I'm not sure why Rivers has been pimped up so much, he seemed like the least apealing of the 3 recievers from what I observed of them in college. MU didn't even really have a running game, Ben would work out of the shotgun nearly all the time meaning defenses could easily focus on the pass but that didn't seem to bother Ben. I think it must have been that one game vs. Iowa that turned peopple off to him, terrible game for Ben, 0TDs 4INTs but the rest of the season he was phenominal.

Sure his stats aren't high but he's doing things better than most veteran QBs, such as a high conversion rate on 3rd down and he's one of the top QBs in the 4th quater - even after having a loust first half or first 3 quarters...The ability to lead the team to victory when the going gets tough, the guy never seems to flinch. You can claim he's had a few "rookie" games but in none of the games did he play poor at the end of the game, he finished strong after overcoming it, that's something "rookies" don't do.

Right now with such an incredible head start, its hard to say that Ben won't be the better of the 3 QBs with only 3 years time. It can't be an easy task to rebound from the season Eli is currently having, and it'd take a while for Ben to fall from how far he's already climbed...and Rivers? Well with the way Brees is playing Rivers might not get any starts for another year, or until Brees is hurt...

Please explain why you find Rivers the least appealing of the 3, in more detail.

And you do realize that Brees will be a FA after this season. Signing him would cost $$$ that they don't need to spend on a QB.
 
Originally posted by: Sepen
Originally posted by: JDub02
It's funny to see the excuses the Ben-haters come up with.

For the record, the Steelers do not have a pro-bowl line. They have a Pro Bowl guard in Alan Faneca. The rest of the line is either second string or injured. This is a line that let Ben get sacked 7 times in 1 game. This is almost the same Steelers team that went 6-10 last year. They added Ben and Duce ... and Duce has been out.


Finally someone speaks the truth, and this from a Bills fan(me, that is). 🙂

They've really changed up their defense, obviously LeBeau is a huge plus but their secondary doesn't contain many starters that last year had, a bunch of fresh blood or backups turned starters. Obviously Farrior is having a career year now that he's had some time to settle in to the defense. That amazing part is the defense finding ways to remain successful. Losing probowl nose tackle Casey Hampton would make you think they'd be hurting more against the run, but they're consistently #1 or 2 in D against the run. Then the lost Chad Scott in the backfield, one of their only veteran starters back there and they still have a great defense against the pass. Then if their linebackers were out due to injury or ejection, they'd have a replacement step up and lead the team in tackles...

Ben hasn't had to lead his team on that many scoring drives because his defense is leading the league in points allowed - not to mention their offense rarely turns the ball over for scores as well...and if they do turn it over the D steps up to force a 3 and out just like in the Jets game on the real INT (not the one he threw on a hail marry at the end of the first half). Granted its hard to judge how good Ben is, because the Steelers have played or will play the top 2-7 defenses in points allowed...they've beaten most of them (including Jets (#2, won), Eagles (#3, won), Ravens (#4, Steelers lost in wk2 but get a rematch, of which Ben did not start), Pats (#5, won), Redskins (#6, won), Jags (#7, won))

When Ben can lead the offense to produce against such effective defenses it defiantely looks impressive when you put it into perspective. Even though he's having a lot of TEAM help, he hasn't been given easy defenses to have a rookie season starting against.
 
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Please explain why you find Rivers the least appealing of the 3, in more detail.

And you do realize that Brees will be a FA after this season. Signing him would cost $$$ that they don't need to spend on a QB.

He has an akward/unconventional throw is far from pretty and is actually kind of scary at times. He does have good stats but they aren't that much more impressive than Ben's or Mannings, Rivers was just QB for a long time on a decent team. On the otherhand Roethlisberger has only played QB for 4 years outside of the NFL. Now the risks you take with Rivers vs. the risks of Roethlisberger, on paper you definatley go with Rivers, but if you would have watched both throughout college you might see where I'm coming from (unless you're a die hard NCState/Rivers fan.

Ben would easily be the 1st pick of the draft if he stayed on for another year, but despite the 4 years @ QB he got drafted with a short college career. Granted with 20/20 hindsight he did the right thing, joining an already decent/good team he's still going to get paid a fair amount but also have the benefit of instant success. Rivers got a little lucky with the highly unexpected free ride to 10-3 so far, whereas Manning got what he deserved, crying his way out of the "loser" Chargers, lol 😉 I dunno, maybe I'd actually take Rivers over Manning if only because I think he might be over rated if only because he has the name "Manning".

Yes I realize Brees'll be a free agent, yes it will cost money. So you know for a fact that Rivers can lead the Chargers to a 2nd consecutive playoffs (assuming a fluke doesn't occur)? I'd rather not gamble on that, that's why you don't dont roll the dice, cross your fingers and hope your $5 wins you a jackpot that is supposed to have a high chance of winning, you invest money into a proven method of success. Granted one good season out of some bum ones isn't much more reasuring but Brees hasn't really flinched all season long, he's been hot throughout rarely having a "cold" game only having 6 INTs on the year so far, McNabb is the only other QB as active as Brees to throw as few TDs. Brees also has the 4th highest QB passer rating of 102.7 The only AFC QB better than that is Peyton @ #1. Hmm, potential good QB in Rivers or arguable the 2nd best QB in the AFC. I'd put my money on Brees. And last I checked the chargers don't have a sallary cap issue but I'm not 100% on that, if they can afford it, why not?
 
Eli will grow, just look at him now. Beginning of the season he had a baby face, now he's got three day growth like a man who has been through hell. GO GIANTS!!! even though we suck =(
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
If Eli turns out to be anything like his brother, he'll be worth the wait. Peyton wasn't sh!t the first few years he started playing as well. Is Ben good now? Hell yea. Who will be better in 5-6 years? Who will be the next big QB? Impossible to tell now. Off the bat yes, it looks like it was a bad move. It's pointless to argue over if it will be in the future though.
Wrong. Peyton has been good pretty much his entire career. He just happens to be unconscious this year.
 
Too early to tell, and if we rate it based on this season, obviously Big Ben gets the passing mark, Eli gets an "F", while Rivers is considered a no-show. I never saw Big Ben play in college, but I saw Manning and Rivers play, and I still can't figure out how Manning got drafted so high. Like it's been said many times in this thread, it's too early to tell, but it won't surprise me one bit if the lesser Manning kept on going 4-for-18 the rest of his career.
 
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Please explain why you find Rivers the least appealing of the 3, in more detail.

And you do realize that Brees will be a FA after this season. Signing him would cost $$$ that they don't need to spend on a QB.

He has an akward/unconventional throw is far from pretty and is actually kind of scary at times. He does have good stats but they aren't that much more impressive than Ben's or Mannings, Rivers was just QB for a long time on a decent team. On the otherhand Roethlisberger has only played QB for 4 years outside of the NFL. Now the risks you take with Rivers vs. the risks of Roethlisberger, on paper you definatley go with Rivers, but if you would have watched both throughout college you might see where I'm coming from (unless you're a die hard NCState/Rivers fan.

Ben would easily be the 1st pick of the draft if he stayed on for another year, but despite the 4 years @ QB he got drafted with a short college career. Granted with 20/20 hindsight he did the right thing, joining an already decent/good team he's still going to get paid a fair amount but also have the benefit of instant success. Rivers got a little lucky with the highly unexpected free ride to 10-3 so far, whereas Manning got what he deserved, crying his way out of the "loser" Chargers, lol 😉 I dunno, maybe I'd actually take Rivers over Manning if only because I think he might be over rated if only because he has the name "Manning".

Yes I realize Brees'll be a free agent, yes it will cost money. So you know for a fact that Rivers can lead the Chargers to a 2nd consecutive playoffs (assuming a fluke doesn't occur)? I'd rather not gamble on that, that's why you don't dont roll the dice, cross your fingers and hope your $5 wins you a jackpot that is supposed to have a high chance of winning, you invest money into a proven method of success. Granted one good season out of some bum ones isn't much more reasuring but Brees hasn't really flinched all season long, he's been hot throughout rarely having a "cold" game only having 6 INTs on the year so far, McNabb is the only other QB as active as Brees to throw as few TDs. Brees also has the 4th highest QB passer rating of 102.7 The only AFC QB better than that is Peyton @ #1. Hmm, potential good QB in Rivers or arguable the 2nd best QB in the AFC. I'd put my money on Brees. And last I checked the chargers don't have a sallary cap issue but I'm not 100% on that, if they can afford it, why not?

I am a pretty big State fan but I am not insane. Manning played for 4 years just as Rivers did. River's stats are more impressive, but as we have discussed in this thread already, college performance isn't the best indication of possible success in the NFL.

Yes his throwing motion is awkward but the number don't lie. He got the job done, you can't argue that. Scary? Maybe for the defenses who had to face him. At least you agree that E. Manning is overrated.

Do you know for a fact that the chargers wouldn't be better off trading Brees after he does this well to pick up some quality players? The Chargers are paying Rivers a lot to do nothing..the Bengals had this problem...granted Kitna wasn't doing as well as Brees is now. We'll see what happens with Brees at the end of the season...

"Brees' contract expires after this season, one that likely will include the Chargers making the playoffs for the first time since 1995. He'll be one of the most sought-after free agents, unless the Chargers strike first.

They could extend his contract into a long-term pact, which is highly unlikely considering they awarded rookie Philip Rivers a six-year, $40 million deal.

More plausible is designating Brees as the franchise player, which would essentially be a one-year contract for roughly $9 million in 2005. That's a lot of cash committed to one position, but with the Chargers figuring to be at least $20 million under the salary cap next year, it could be done.

The team could also sign and trade Brees, or be compensated with draft picks if they lose him as a franchise-designated free agent."
 
Originally posted by: poopaskoopa
Too early to tell, and if we rate it based on this season, obviously Big Ben gets the passing mark, Eli gets an "F", while Rivers is considered a no-show. I never saw Big Ben play in college, but I saw Manning and Rivers play, and I still can't figure out how Manning got drafted so high. Like it's been said many times in this thread, it's too early to tell, but it won't surprise me one bit if the lesser Manning kept on going 4-for-18 the rest of his career.

His name, thats how.
 
Originally posted by: SP33Demon

No, college performance is an inaccurate guage of talent, it's a flip of the coin how a player will perform in the NFL. For every ounce of breath you waste pimping Phillip Rivers, I can tell you he is the next Ryan Leaf, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffel, Gino Torretta, Eric Crouch, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer, Tommie Frazier, Craig Erickson, Jeff George, or Chris Weinke (and countless other QB's) who were hyped. For example, Joe Montana was drafted in the third round, Favre 2nd, even Trent Green was drafted in the 8th round!!

To a certain extent you are right that college performance is an inaccurate guage of talent. Lets look back over the 1st rd qb selection of say ... the past 10 yrs .. starting in 95 sounds good.

95 - McNair, Collins
96 - none
97 - Duckenmiller (bust)
98 - P. Manning, Leaf (bust)
99 - Couch (bust), McNabb, A. Smith (bust), Culpepper, C. NcNown (bust)
00 - Pennington
01 - Vick
02 - Carr, Harrington, Ramsey
03 - Palmer, Leftwich, Boller , Grossman

Its hard to tell with 02,03 drafts. All of them start in the NFL but im sure a few are going to end up busts. So assuming all the QB's above must have played well in college to be drafted in the first round and about 50% I'd consider busts Im going to have to say "a flip of a coin" is about as accurate as you get. Let me note it pains me to agree with someone so in love with the overrated Ray Lewis, but i guess thats another debate for another thread .:laugh:
 
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Originally posted by: Excelsior
Please explain why you find Rivers the least appealing of the 3, in more detail.

And you do realize that Brees will be a FA after this season. Signing him would cost $$$ that they don't need to spend on a QB.

He has an akward/unconventional throw is far from pretty and is actually kind of scary at times. He does have good stats but they aren't that much more impressive than Ben's or Mannings, Rivers was just QB for a long time on a decent team. On the otherhand Roethlisberger has only played QB for 4 years outside of the NFL. Now the risks you take with Rivers vs. the risks of Roethlisberger, on paper you definatley go with Rivers, but if you would have watched both throughout college you might see where I'm coming from (unless you're a die hard NCState/Rivers fan.

Ben would easily be the 1st pick of the draft if he stayed on for another year, but despite the 4 years @ QB he got drafted with a short college career. Granted with 20/20 hindsight he did the right thing, joining an already decent/good team he's still going to get paid a fair amount but also have the benefit of instant success. Rivers got a little lucky with the highly unexpected free ride to 10-3 so far, whereas Manning got what he deserved, crying his way out of the "loser" Chargers, lol 😉 I dunno, maybe I'd actually take Rivers over Manning if only because I think he might be over rated if only because he has the name "Manning".

Yes I realize Brees'll be a free agent, yes it will cost money. So you know for a fact that Rivers can lead the Chargers to a 2nd consecutive playoffs (assuming a fluke doesn't occur)? I'd rather not gamble on that, that's why you don't dont roll the dice, cross your fingers and hope your $5 wins you a jackpot that is supposed to have a high chance of winning, you invest money into a proven method of success. Granted one good season out of some bum ones isn't much more reasuring but Brees hasn't really flinched all season long, he's been hot throughout rarely having a "cold" game only having 6 INTs on the year so far, McNabb is the only other QB as active as Brees to throw as few TDs. Brees also has the 4th highest QB passer rating of 102.7 The only AFC QB better than that is Peyton @ #1. Hmm, potential good QB in Rivers or arguable the 2nd best QB in the AFC. I'd put my money on Brees. And last I checked the chargers don't have a sallary cap issue but I'm not 100% on that, if they can afford it, why not?

I am a pretty big State fan but I am not insane. Manning played for 4 years just as Rivers did. River's stats are more impressive, but as we have discussed in this thread already, college performance isn't the best indication of possible success in the NFL.

Yes his throwing motion is awkward but the number don't lie. He got the job done, you can't argue that. Scary? Maybe for the defenses who had to face him. At least you agree that E. Manning is overrated.

Do you know for a fact that the chargers wouldn't be better off trading Brees after he does this well to pick up some quality players? The Chargers are paying Rivers a lot to do nothing..the Bengals had this problem...granted Kitna wasn't doing as well as Brees is now. We'll see what happens with Brees at the end of the season...

"Brees' contract expires after this season, one that likely will include the Chargers making the playoffs for the first time since 1995. He'll be one of the most sought-after free agents, unless the Chargers strike first.

They could extend his contract into a long-term pact, which is highly unlikely considering they awarded rookie Philip Rivers a six-year, $40 million deal.

More plausible is designating Brees as the franchise player, which would essentially be a one-year contract for roughly $9 million in 2005. That's a lot of cash committed to one position, but with the Chargers figuring to be at least $20 million under the salary cap next year, it could be done.

The team could also sign and trade Brees, or be compensated with draft picks if they lose him as a franchise-designated free agent."

First off numbers can lie, yes Rivers got it done in college but that doesn't mean he is going to cut it in the NFL, his akward pass might work against unpaid amatuer college players but that remains to be seen against Pros. Rivers only got 2 preseason performances in, both of them were not starts of which he did terrible against Seattle 5 of 14, 79 yards, 0TDs, 2INTs. The second game he did fairly well going 13 of 16 1TD 1INT but this was after Brees had already driven the chargers to two TD drives agianst the 49ers...

The Bengals knew what they were doing with Palmer, they weren't wasting money by having Palmer sit. Palmer was learning the system while Kitna lead the team to 8-8, VERY successful season for the Bengals but obviously not good enough. Kitna was never an answer for a lengthy multiseason run, he isn't young and he isn't quite the starting QB for a winning team. Palmer was started after earning the spot coming off a year of being phased into the system. The Bengals have had terrible luck with 1st round QBs and they were taking the most conservative approach as possible. Low risk meaning no immediate success but a team building move, perhaps even a dynasty building one. They now have one of the most explosive offenses in the league scoring a lot of points against some of leagues best scoring defenses against the Ravens and Patriots.

On the otherhand there's the Chargers, who drafted Rivers if only because they assumed Brees was a flop and wouldn't take them to a winning record let alone a legit play off run. The Chargers cannot have a .500 record or worse, at worst they are going to go 10-6, phenominal for a team like the Chargers, or even the Bengals. Brees is no Kitna, he isn't just filling the position while the rookie can be eased in. Bress wanted to start and he wanted to prove that he can get the job don, so far he is and his numbers are top 5, he is really impressive. Better yet, unlike Kitna he is young Kitna has been in the NFL twice as long as Brees, therefore you should be able to expect another half dozen good years out of Brees.

It is a tough decision but you'd rather be in the position than not even be in the position. Depending upon how Brees and the Chargers do in their last 3 games and how ever long they last in the playoffs, I find it hard letting Brees go.
 
i will say this about the chargers. they gave up too soon on brees. bet they are wishing they had traded eli manning for something a bit better. eli is still better trade material in my mind than rivers.
 
wow some of you really know very little about football

Anyone who says the Steelers don't have a GREAT offensive line is either trying to make Big Ben look like Dan Marino 2, or not the football know-it-all they think they are.

Look at their rushing stats, look at the number of QB sacks, look at their record.

Yes, last year the Steelers struggled, but remember, last year Tommy Maddox was the QB, Amos Zeroue was the starting RB, and 3 and 4 WR sets were used quite often. Zeroue couldn't do anything right, Maddox threw pics all over the place, and they played catch-up most of the time, getting off to a horrible start.

I dislike Bill Cowher as much as any coach in sports, but I'll give him credit - he turned the Steelers back into what they do best - a running team. Staley, along with the rebirth of the Bus, have pretty much pounded teams into submission. Ben probably sees as much single coverage on his WR's as any QB in the league.

What Ben has done is a great accomplishment, but his stats in these games, other than wins and losses, aren't exactly eye-popping. He looks like a solid NFL QB for years to come, but I say that if you were to switch him and Eli, Ben's numbers wouldn't be any more impressive than Eli's have been - the Giants O-Line is among the worst in the league, Shockey drops as many passes as he catches, and the overall speed of the Giants WR's doesn't scare any of the teams they play.

I'm not saying Eli would be 11-0, or whatever Ben is, as the Steelers QB, but I'd be willing to bet that 10-1, maybe 9-2, would still be very much within his reach. Other than the late drive against Jacksonville, I don't think Ben has really won any games for the Steelers, but he's done a good job keeping the turnovers to a minimum, and the Steelers D has been dominating.

I have to add one more thing about Ben - he played QB for ONE year in HS - no one, early in his college career at Miami of OHIO (not Florida), was saying he was NFL material. Yes, he had a nice career there, but the level of competition in the MAC (let me say that I think the MAC is very underrated - better than the Big East this year) isn't the same as the level that Manning and Rivers faced - and the toughest game they had last year was against Iowa, where Ben didn't play well at all - he was still a first round pick, so it's not like he slid off the radar for most teams, but I can completely understand why that game may have turned a team or two 'off' of him.

I think Eli will be fine. Those of you saying that he was only drafted where he was because his last name is Manning are worse than the people saying the Steelers don't have a good O-Line. Eli played at Miss - not Tennesse, Auburn, LSU, or Georgia - for that team to win 10 games last year was quite an accomplishment, and his physical skills are at least the equal of Peyton's coming out of college. I'm not saying he'll be as good as Peyton - I'm just saying that if there was no Peyton Manning, Eli's still a top 5 pick in last year's draft. I will say that I think his "name" probably was the final factor in the Giants making their trade - their fans were much more likely to buy more season tickets than if they had just made a trade for Phillip Rivers (who? to most NFL fans at the time).

I'm actually going to agree with those of you that said Rivers was their top-rated guy coming out last year (but he comparison about NCAA stats and the team's records this year was ridiculous). Rivers was very impressive at NC.St, the scouts were abuzz about him during the Sr. Bowl practices. Let's not forget that Brees, and the Chargers as a whole, did not play well last year - I don't blame them at all for seeming to give up on Brees last year - in fact, prior to the draft, they offered him to a number of teams, and no one took him - so it's not like the Chargers were the only team down on him.

That said, he's had a great season, Antonio Gates has emerged as his favorite target, and his importance cannot be understated. Their WR's, even with the addition of McCardell, aren't very good, though R.Caldwell was off to a nice start..but with Gates around, teams have to plan for him and Tomlinson, and much like Ben, Brees is seeing his WR's with a ton of single coverage, which most NFL QB's can take advantage of.

I think they will franchise Brees, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see them trade him after that and let Rivers take over - I think the cap implications for them are much worse if they move Rivers. Besides, having two good QB's isn't a bad problem to have. Also, they have some extra draft picks coming up, look for them to grab a WR and a young LB.

Also, you may hate USC and/or the Bengals, but to say that Carson Palmer is a bust, or that he stinks, is 100% wrong. He's been very impresssive in the 2nd half of this season, and if the Bengals can get some help defensively next year, and add a TE, they are going to be tough.

As for the upcoming draft, I think Rodgers is much more impressive than Leinhart is (assuming they both come out). I really don't know why Leinhart would return to USC next year though, time to move on.
 
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