Eli Manning is NOT an elite quarterback and anyone who says otherwise is...

[AstroManLuca]

Hey let's talk about how elite Brady was yesterday. Balls getting batted down on the line of scrimmage...a pass attempt that gets intercepted by a linebacker 50 yards down the field. He really played a game that you would expect from an elite QB.

Those are pretty random occurrences and are not indicative of his overall level of play.

The safety was the biggest rookie mistake he made IMO, although I can't blame him for throwing that ball. He probably expected one of his receivers to be at least somewhat near it, and refs don't flag intentional grounding very often unless it's extremely obvious.

The long INT was unfortunate but on the other hand it was basically a punt. Still not great but not as bad as a short INT. And it was more bad luck than his fault.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Wait a minute...you mean to tell me that the entire team effects the production of the QB? Shit man...back to the drawing board. I thought all that matters is if you have an elite QB or not.

Insanity!

 

[seepy83]

The long INT was unfortunate but on the other hand it was basically a punt. Still not great but not as bad as a short INT. And it was more bad luck than his fault.

It really wasn't bad luck...it was an under-thrown ball. There is no luck in elite QBing.

 

[AstroManLuca]

It really wasn't bad luck...it was an under-thrown ball. There is no luck in elite QBing.

Turnovers are the most random stat there is. Fumbles more so than interceptions, but still, many interceptions are not the QB's fault. They could be because a WR messes up his route or a DB just does a really good job of reading the QB. I'm not saying that one interception wasn't Brady's fault, but you can't say he's not an elite QB because he threw one interception. He made a mistake; every player makes mistakes, but the great players just make fewer of them. And "fewer" is not "none."

EDIT: Although I suppose the argument isn't that Brady isn't elite, it's that he didn't play to his ability last night. I guess I'd half agree with that; he's definitely played better.

 

[SP33Demon]

Turnovers are the most random stat there is. Fumbles more so than interceptions, but still, many interceptions are not the QB's fault. They could be because a WR messes up his route or a DB just does a really good job of reading the QB. I'm not saying that one interception wasn't Brady's fault, but you can't say he's not an elite QB because he threw one interception. He made a mistake; every player makes mistakes, but the great players just make fewer of them. And "fewer" is not "none."

Elite QB's make sure the WR doesn't mess up his route.

 

[Zargon]

hard to argue against Eli after he showed up the #1 qb in the league.....

the pick was due to brady underthrowing it. the safety him way way over throwing a receiver so it couldnt be 'in the area'

Brady had a good game, but not great game and suffered from some drops(hernandez, welker)



manning set the NFL single season record apparantly for 4th quarter comeback wins with 5

 

[Miramonti]

Because one game is always the best way to evaluate the overall talent level of a quarterback. If Tim Tebows game against the Steelers doesn't prove he is an elite QB, either ones related to him, or deeply ignant... or maybe realizes you can't judge an 8 year career of a player based on 4-5 good games.

Not because one game, that's a myopic analogy, but because he already was MVP of his previous superbowl, and came out from the outset, set a record for straight completions, didn't turn the ball over, and was absolutely clutch in the 4th quarter, to earn his second MVP. He proved that leading the team to his first superbowl was not a fluke of what he's capable of.

Superbowls are the major measuring stick in the nfl, particularly qb's, and he was absolutely elite in the strongest terms. Threw the ball 40 times, completed 30, 0 interceptions, while coming from behind to take the lead late in the 4th. "Above average" doesn't cover it.

The odds favored Pats so much because little faith was put in Manning and so much in Brady. Yet he outperformed Brady (/edit: atleast equaled him...dropped passed didn't help brady's stats.) He's earned his f'ing stripes. Regardless of whether or not his regular seasons are or aren't record setting, he's elite in big time games, which is what counts the most.

There's absolutely no way any reasonable person can take what he did Sunday and not have a stronger perception of him. Opportunities to prove oneself at the highest level with all the stakes on the line don't come along often, and he shined like gold.

 

[JTsyo]

Not because one game, that's a myopic analogy, but because he already was MVP of his previous superbowl, and came out from the outset, set a record for straight completions, didn't turn the ball over, and was absolutely clutch in the 4th quarter, to earn his second MVP. He proved that leading the team to his first superbowl was not a fluke of what he's capable of.

Superbowls are the major measuring stick in the nfl, particularly qb's, and he was absolutely elite in the strongest terms. Threw the ball 40 times, completed 30, 0 interceptions, while coming from behind to take the lead late in the 4th. "Above average" doesn't cover it.

The odds favored Pats so much because little faith was put in Manning and so much in Brady. Yet he outperformed Brady. He's earned his f'ing stripes. Regardless of whether or not his regular seasons are or aren't record setting, he's elite in big time games, which is what counts the most.

There's absolutely no way any reasonable person can take what he did Sunday and not have a stronger perception of him. Opportunities to prove oneself at the highest level with all the stakes on the line don't come along often, and he shined like gold.

There's always next year to make the case again. I'm sure there will be a few arguing against him even has he gets into the HOF.

 

[AstroManLuca]

manning set the NFL single season record apparantly for 4th quarter comeback wins with 5

Where'd you find that? I looked at Pro Football Reference and it looks like Peyton had 7 4th quarter comebacks in the 2009 season, whereas Eli is in second place with 5 this regular season (tied with Tebow and Alex Smith this year and Josh Freeman and Matt Ryan last year), as well as two in the postseason. So as far as I can tell, he's tied with his brother if you include the postseason but Peyton holds the regular season record. I can't be sure though because the site doesn't appear to have complete information on 4th quarter comebacks before 2008. It's a little weird.

 

[Hacp]

Not because one game, that's a myopic analogy, but because he already was MVP of his previous superbowl, and came out from the outset, set a record for straight completions, didn't turn the ball over, and was absolutely clutch in the 4th quarter, to earn his second MVP. He proved that leading the team to his first superbowl was not a fluke of what he's capable of.

Superbowls are the major measuring stick in the nfl, particularly qb's, and he was absolutely elite in the strongest terms. Threw the ball 40 times, completed 30, 0 interceptions, while coming from behind to take the lead late in the 4th. "Above average" doesn't cover it.

The odds favored Pats so much because little faith was put in Manning and so much in Brady. Yet he outperformed Brady. He's earned his f'ing stripes. Regardless of whether or not his regular seasons are or aren't record setting, he's elite in big time games, which is what counts the most.

There's absolutely no way any reasonable person can take what he did Sunday and not have a stronger perception of him. Opportunities to prove oneself at the highest level with all the stakes on the line don't come along often, and he shined like gold.

I agree with you. He didn't just have a 5000 yard season. He didn't just carry his team to the playoffs with a bad running game and defense . He isn't just clutch with six 4th quarter comebacks. He does all these things combined, and he won he superbowl twice. That makes him elite.

 

[Hacp]

Where'd you find that? I looked at Pro Football Reference and it looks like Peyton had 7 4th quarter comebacks in the 2009 season, whereas Eli is in second place with 5 this regular season (tied with Tebow and Alex Smith this year and Josh Freeman and Matt Ryan last year), as well as two in the postseason. So as far as I can tell, he's tied with his brother if you include the postseason but Peyton holds the regular season record. I can't be sure though because the site doesn't appear to have complete information on 4th quarter comebacks before 2008. It's a little weird.

I think he means 4th quarter touchdowns. He did break that record. He got 15. What does that mean? If he defense keeps the game within 6 going into the 4th, the Giants have a very good chance of winning with Eli at the helm.

 

[JujuFish]

set a record for straight completions

Wrong QB.

 

[AstroManLuca]

I think he means 4th quarter touchdowns. He did break that record. He got 15. What does that mean? If he defense keeps the game within 6 going into the 4th, the Giants have a very good chance of winning with Eli at the helm.

Wow, I was just reading PFR's article on 4th quarter comebacks vs. game-winning drives and it's more complicated than I thought:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3401

So you do have situations where the team is trailing at some point in the 4th quarter and then they come from behind to win. But not every game-winning drive is a 4th quarter comeback, and not every 4th quarter comeback is a game-winning drive. For instance, some quarterbacks are credited with comebacks despite their team never trailing during the game (they were just tied). Others are credited despite never taking the field while losing; for instance, their team is losing at some point in the 4th quarter but a score by the defense or special teams produces the game-winning points.

 

[Miramonti]

Wrong QB.

Wrong answer. Two 'straight completions' records were broken, straight completions at the start of the SB (manning, 9?), and straight completions during the SB (brady, 14?.)

/edit: 9, 16

And as it mentions, giants punter Steve Weatherford was incredible, setting a record for placing 3 punts inside the 10 yard line.

 

[Hacp]

Wrong answer. Two 'straight completions' records were broken, straight completions at the start of the SB (manning, 9?), and straight completions during the SB (brady, 14?.)

/edit: 9, 16

And as it mentions, giants punter Steve Weatherford was incredible, setting a record for placing 3 punts inside the 10 yard line.

Alot of it was due to Eli getting the Giants down field only to punt because the refs blew calls on penalties.

 

[Cuda1447]

I think we've beat this horse enough by now. I don't expect many to agree with me. Hell, I made this post because everyone was touting Eli as elite and I was going against the grain. I still stand by what I said. I will concede this, that someone else said earlier in this thread. Eli may be considered elite in big games. But overall, from a talent perspective, I think he's a very good QB, but not elite. He could change my mind next season though. If he goes on to throw 30+ TD's an >10 int's for the next few years, taking his team to the playoffs every year and giving them a chance at more Super Bowls, I'll say he's elite. I don't expect that to happen though.


I guess the major point I was trying to make in all this, that I don't think has been made clearly, is that all to often we are prisoners of the moment. We react to what we just saw and give it much more weight because its recent, while taking the entire previous career of players and give it very little weight, because its in the back of our mind. That's a flawed way to evaluate players and will cause you to keep flip/flopping on your opinions of players. That's not accurate, that's called being a band-wagoner. I guess I just try to avoid that. Four years ago people were saying Tom Brady was the greatest ever. They were prisoners of the moment. Two years ago Chris Johnson was the best running back since Barry Sanders, again prisoners of the moment. Going into the year many said CJ2K was a better back than Adrian Peterson, giving a ton of weight to CJ2K's recent big season, while minimizing AP's consistent track record of success. Again, prisoners of the moment.

I guess that's my biggest point here. We must be careful not to give to much weight to something because it just happened.

 

[Cuda1447]

Alot of it was due to Eli getting the Giants down field only to punt because the refs blew calls on penalties.

oh jesus christ that's a ridiculous statement.

 

[Kev]

lol @ the onion
http://www.theonion.com/video/eli-manning-asks-dad-if-he-can-stop-playing-footba,27279/

 

[zinfamous]

Not because one game, that's a myopic analogy, but because he already was MVP of his previous superbowl, and came out from the outset, set a record for straight completions, didn't turn the ball over, and was absolutely clutch in the 4th quarter, to earn his second MVP. He proved that leading the team to his first superbowl was not a fluke of what he's capable of.

Superbowls are the major measuring stick in the nfl, particularly qb's, and he was absolutely elite in the strongest terms. Threw the ball 40 times, completed 30, 0 interceptions, while coming from behind to take the lead late in the 4th. "Above average" doesn't cover it.

The odds favored Pats so much because little faith was put in Manning and so much in Brady. Yet he outperformed Brady (/edit: atleast equaled him...dropped passed didn't help brady's stats.) He's earned his f'ing stripes. Regardless of whether or not his regular seasons are or aren't record setting, he's elite in big time games, which is what counts the most.

There's absolutely no way any reasonable person can take what he did Sunday and not have a stronger perception of him. Opportunities to prove oneself at the highest level with all the stakes on the line don't come along often, and he shined like gold.

already better than Elway, that much is true.

 

[Cuda1447]

At least there is someone who agrees with me. Finally another voice of reason. This is a quote from Kurt Warner

“I fully disagree with that,” Warner said of talk that Eli will get in. “You know because I know we put a lot of weight on championships, and rightfully so. But championships are won as a team, and I’m fully convinced of that. You never see one guy — a great player, great quarterback — carry a team through the playoffs and into a Super Bowl and win a Super Bowl that way. I’ve never seen it. You know even in that game [Super Bowl XLVI], it’s 21-17. That’s the game. There wasn’t a quarterback just up and down the field carrying the team.

“Yeah, he made the plays down the stretch, no question about it,” added Warner, who spent the 2004 season with Eli in New York. “He’s had two great playoff runs, or his team has had two great playoff runs. But I also look at the rest of his career. I mean, he has an 82 . . . quarterback rating throughout his career. You know, he’s had five of his eight seasons where he has thrown 16 interceptions or more. His completion percentage on his career is 58 percent. To me, those aren’t Hall of Fame numbers and by that I mean every time you step on the field you’re a game changer, you’re a difference maker. And I don’t believe Eli Manning has been that guy until this year. I think this year is the first time in his career when he’s become that guy.”

Warner said that, if Eli performs like he did this year for five more seasons, then he’ll be worthy of inclusion among the league’s all-time greats. Without that, Warner thinks Eli should be kept out due to the fact that he has been “extremely inconsistent throughout his career.”

 

[KeithTalent]

Eli sucks; screw that whiny twerp.

KT

 

[Atomic Playboy]

At least there is someone who agrees with me. Finally another voice of reason. This is a quote from Kurt Warner

If you actually read what you quoted, you'd notice that Kurt Warner said "until this year." That sounds an awful lot like Kurt Warner is saying that Eli Manning is playing like an elite quarterback, and if he puts up similar numbers to what he did this year for a few more seasons, he's a hall of famer. That's not really agreeing with your contention that Eli Manning is "not an elite quarterback."

 

[Corporate Thug]

Those are pretty random occurrences and are not indicative of his overall level of play.

The safety was the biggest rookie mistake he made IMO, although I can't blame him for throwing that ball. He probably expected one of his receivers to be at least somewhat near it, and refs don't flag intentional grounding very often unless it's extremely obvious.

The long INT was unfortunate but on the other hand it was basically a punt. Still not great but not as bad as a short INT. And it was more bad luck than his fault.

It was on first down, you don't punt on second down.

 

[Cuda1447]

If you actually read what you quoted, you'd notice that Kurt Warner said "until this year." That sounds an awful lot like Kurt Warner is saying that Eli Manning is playing like an elite quarterback, and if he puts up similar numbers to what he did this year for a few more seasons, he's a hall of famer. That's not really agreeing with your contention that Eli Manning is "not an elite quarterback."

Oh I agree that if he continues to do the rest of his career what he did the 2nd half of this season he is going to be considered amongst the best. But I highly doubt that will happen, based on his 8 year career thus far.

 

[Rockinacoustic]

At least there is someone who agrees with me. Finally another voice of reason. This is a quote from Kurt Warner

Haha, Warner is an idiot. By his logic, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Otto Graham and countless other QB's shouldn't be in the HOF with their completion pct and QB rating.