Electricians: Help me analyze my breaker box.

[Eli]

As some of you may remember, we have a problem with our wiring. Anything plugged in is live, albeit with only 10-20VAC, to ground.

I finally got around to opening up the breaker box the other day and having a looksie.

pic

I wasn't really sure what to make of it, though. There appears to be a ground wire.. The large gauge, bare wire on the bottom right.. goes somewhere into the wall behind the box. There's also bare wire from the ground bus(?) to the pipe that leads to the meter. Is all that bare wire in there bad?

Another thing that seemed strange to me.. The two large gauge yellow "jumper" wires leading from the 50A breaker(the "main lights" breaker)

If you'll notice, it looks like we're only using 30 amps of our 50 amp capacity.

pic

One yellow wire leads to the two 15A breakers on the bottom, both of which are populated. The top yellow wire leads to a single 15A breaker, and it is unpopulated. Could this be why we have so many problems with circuits blowing? I mean... what happened to that other wire? If that unused 15A breaker were wired into the house, it would reduce the overall load on the other two 15A circuits.



On the other hand, I'm not even sure which circuits those two 15A breakers are. I know one of them is my bedroom.. Don't know what the other is.

The fridge is on it's own 15A circuit, somewhat retarded.

The living room, kitchen(excluding stove), master bedroom and utility room are all on the same breaker. That one is annoying.

Is there any way I can easily find out which breakers are controlling which plugins without turning them off and checking? lol

Edit: We rent.

This is a learning experience more than anything. I'd just like to figure it out for my own knowledge.

OK, well I've been flipping breakers all day. I'm even more baffled than I was before.

Let me get all my data together..

OK.. OMG, it's so messed up.

1-2 is the stove.

3-4-5 is the water heater, I'm guessing.

6-7-8 is the dryer.

The 9-10 breaker apparently doesen't control anything. The one that has a yellow wire going to it, with no wire hooked to the breaker.

11 is the rigth side of the living room, one of the overhead lights in the kitchen, half of the master bedroom, and the overhead light in the utility room.

12 is the 2nd bedroom, bathroom, hallway, and overhead light + 1 outlet in the master bedroom.

13-14 is the fridge, washer, the 2nd overhead light in the kitchen, one outlet in the kitchen, and the stove hood light/fan.

15-16 seems to only control yet another outlet in the kitchen, in this case our microwave and toaster.

17-18 seems to control only a single outlet in the utility room. It's also by the water heater, so it might control that too.. but I thought the water heater was 220V.

And finally, 19-20 is the garage/shop.

Wow.... just, wow.

Edit: Oh sh!t, I just realized the pics you guys have don't have the breakers numbered... Hold on.

here's a pic explaining the breaker numbering

 

[mobobuff]

Whoa... it's like the 3D Pipes Screensaver in your fusebox :Q.

 

[iamwiz82]

Wow, that's a rat's nest.

 

[Eli]

LOL, I figured it was pretty bad.

The landlord is, well, completely fscking retarded when it comes to being a handyman.

I mean, he painted the bathtub. :frown:

With regular flat white latex paint. :roll: Genius. God knows what he's done in the past.

 

[quakefiend420]

Originally posted by: Eli
I mean, he painted the bathtub. :frown:

LMFAO

 

[lobadobadingdong]

I've only ever seen white(-)black(+), and earth ground in a box before, I don't even know what to make of that :shocked:

 

[teckmaster]

without turning off the breakers, there really isn't any way to check to see what outlet goes to what.

Other than that, your wiring seems to be pretty old and it might be to your advantage if you plan on staying there, to have an electrician come out and give an estimate on re-wiring it. some of those wires don't make sense where they are going.

 

[shilala]

I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.
That said...
I'd check the top 30 amp of the left side clusterfvck to see if it is powered. It appears that you are serving a 220 device with the same phase twice. Moving one of the wires on the bottom two breakers up to the top one may solve the problem, but there's not enough info to know for sure.
How's about some background leading to the problem? That'd be a big help.
The stove comment is either totally wrong, or your place is super special. Your clock and stuff on your stove should be 120, the stove itself 220, unless it's gas.
Do you have an electric stove? Electric water heater? A big air conditioner?
I'm trying to figure out what goes to what and I just (again) don't have enough info.

 

[shekondar]

To figure out which outlets are on which breakers, you can get a breaker finder (not sure if that's the right name) - it comes in two parts, one plugs into the outlet, and you wave the other part over the breakers - when you're over the right breaker it beeps. Costs about $20-30.

Those yellow wires definitely should NOT be there. The black wire going into the neutral/ground bus at the bottom could also be a problem - hopefully whoever wired it just used the wrong color of wire, and didn't really connect a hot wire to the neutral bus.

edit - Just noticed the GREEN wire connected to the bottom breaker on the right...Whoever wired that should be shot (FYI - green wire = ground). Again, hopefully they just used the wrong color, and didn't really connect the hot side of the breaker directly to ground.

 

[lokiju]

Well I can see already that you're missing the flux capacitor.

Without that, you're not gonna get anywhere!

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: shekondar
To figure out which outlets are on which breakers, you can get a breaker finder (not sure if that's the right name) - it comes in two parts, one plugs into the outlet, and you wave the other part over the breakers - when you're over the right breaker it beeps. Costs about $20-30.

Those yellow wires definitely should NOT be there. The black wire going into the neutral/ground bus at the bottom could also be a problem - hopefully whoever wired it just used the wrong color of wire, and didn't really connect a hot wire to the neutral bus.

any tone generator should work. I use a cat5 tone generator with aligator clips and some pieces of wire. Not the safest, but I think Eli knows enough not to kill himself.

EDIT: Looking at that nuetral bus wire, doesn't it look like it goes to the top 30 amp breaker on the right? :Q

 

[shekondar]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: shekondar
To figure out which outlets are on which breakers, you can get a breaker finder (not sure if that's the right name) - it comes in two parts, one plugs into the outlet, and you wave the other part over the breakers - when you're over the right breaker it beeps. Costs about $20-30.

Those yellow wires definitely should NOT be there. The black wire going into the neutral/ground bus at the bottom could also be a problem - hopefully whoever wired it just used the wrong color of wire, and didn't really connect a hot wire to the neutral bus.

any tone generator should work. I use a cat5 tone generator with aligator clips and some pieces of wire. Not the safest, but I think Eli knows enough not to kill himself.

A cat5 tone generator would work, but you would need to turn the circuit off first (so you don't let the smoke out). The breaker finder will work while the circuit is turned on.

EDIT: Looking at that nuetral bus wire, doesn't it look like it goes to the top 30 amp breaker on the right? :Q

Hard to tell in that rat's nest, but it does kinda look like it. :Q:Q
My advice - slowly back away from the box...RUN to the nearest phone...call an electrician to rip that shiat out & rewire it...

 

[mrrman]

thats a nasty looking wiring job...hazardous in my mind

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.
That said...
I'd check the top 30 amp of the left side clusterfvck to see if it is powered. It appears that you are serving a 220 device with the same phase twice. Moving one of the wires on the bottom two breakers up to the top one may solve the problem, but there's not enough info to know for sure.
How's about some background leading to the problem? That'd be a big help.
The stove comment is either totally wrong, or your place is super special. Your clock and stuff on your stove should be 120, the stove itself 220, unless it's gas.
Do you have an electric stove? Electric water heater? A big air conditioner?
I'm trying to figure out what goes to what and I just (again) don't have enough info.

I assumed that the stove wasn't on the same breaker as the rest of the kitchen, the living room, master bedroom, and utility room, because... we would probably have a LOT more problems with it otherwise, lol.

I don't know if the stove is 110 or 220.... I'll check tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it has a normal small plugin, though.

We have an electric water heater, no idea where that's at in the breaker.

There's a furnace.. no A/C tho.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shekondar
To figure out which outlets are on which breakers, you can get a breaker finder (not sure if that's the right name) - it comes in two parts, one plugs into the outlet, and you wave the other part over the breakers - when you're over the right breaker it beeps. Costs about $20-30.

Those yellow wires definitely should NOT be there. The black wire going into the neutral/ground bus at the bottom could also be a problem - hopefully whoever wired it just used the wrong color of wire, and didn't really connect a hot wire to the neutral bus.

edit - Just noticed the GREEN wire connected to the bottom breaker on the right...Whoever wired that should be shot (FYI - green wire = ground). Again, hopefully they just used the wrong color, and didn't really connect the hot side of the breaker directly to ground.

Who fscking knows.

The house has no grounded outlets. They probably just used it to power something since it was there. Lovely.

That black wire connected into the neutral bus is strange, and I don't remember where it goes and none of the pics I took show it, so I'll have to look again tomorrow.

Just looked at the stove.. Yeah, it's 220... Duh.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

As far as following standard color code, the green wire is a BIG no-no. The yellow wires, the only reason I can see those being there is if there's a problem with the backbone and it has a break in it and the 50A breaker that they go to feeds the lower half. The bar at the bottom is for neutral. The red+black sets of wires go to 220/240V outlets, such as an oven or dryer. The lack of a main breaker leads me to believe that this is a sub panel. In the case of this type of panel, the neutral and ground is tied together.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.

I suspect that for whatever reason, the purpose of the yellow jumpers was to isolate the bottom 7 breakers so they could be turned on/off without turning on/off the master. I can only theorize that someone had wanted to a way to turn off all the non-essential circuits for some reason (during travel?, dunno, weird).

If I'm right, (while we can't see it) the breaker bar from the mains must be split between the top two rows of breakers and the bottom 2 rows. The yellow jumpers provide the connection down the break bar (one per phase).

It also appears you have a number of ground lines being run as neutrals (the bare copper lines at the bottom). Those should run to a shared ground bar (there is actually room for one on the right behind the rats nest or along the right wall. Guessing no grounds in the house? That would explain some of the setup.

Debug that black wire running to the neutral bar AND that green wire running to the last breaker on the bottom right. Most likely somebody who didn't understand why we have color codes wired stuff up, but if not that could definately indicate a dangerous configuration.

Bill

 

[woowoo]

Your renting right?
Just send the pics to the county inspector.
They will get a good laugh out of it.

 

[nakedfrog]

I'm having problems, and I'm afraid that once I open my box up it will look just like that.

 

[Eli]

I guess I don't really even understand how the box distributes the power.

So wait...

The yellow wire on the top 50A breaker goes to a 15A breaker that has no wire going to it. The yellow wire on the bottom 50A breaker goes to dual 15A breakers that are both populated.

What controls what? lol

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.

I suspect that for whatever reason, the purpose of the yellow jumpers was to isolate the bottom 7 breakers so they could be turned on/off without turning on/off the master. I can only theorize that someone had wanted to a way to turn off all the non-essential circuits for some reason (during travel?, dunno, weird).

If I'm right, (while we can't see it) the breaker bar from the mains must be split between the top two rows of breakers and the bottom 2 rows. The yellow jumpers provide the connection down the break bar (one per phase).

It also appears you have a number of ground lines being run as neutrals (the bare copper lines at the bottom). Those should run to a shared ground bar (there is actually room for one on the right behind the rats nest or along the right wall. Guessing no grounds in the house? That would explain some of the setup.

Debug that black wire running to the neutral bar AND that green wire running to the last breaker on the bottom right. Most likely somebody who didn't understand why we have color codes wired stuff up, but if not that could definately indicate a dangerous configuration.

Bill

I think you're right on the ball, Bill.
What about the low voltage problem? Bad neutral connection on one side of the panel (top or bottom)?
I've still never seen a panel like that, a subpanel in a panel, but it's really pretty ingenious.
It's starting to like like it's not a big problem.

 

[luigi1]

The old time way to sort out your circuits is to use a radio, cd player, something that makes noise. Turn it up so you can hear it at the breaker box. Turn off breakers untill the sound stopes. Take notes and escort it around to the outlets. Ok now you know what is wired to where and thats good to know. Your origional problem was 10 to 20 VAC on exposed metal on your appliances. This is really not good. I am going to assume you have 2 prong outlets. That means nutral is riding with this voltage. The most likely cause is the ground rod at the service entrance. These are subject to corrode and lawn mowers have been known to eat them etc. You may find this close to where the wires enter your building. Your local electric company may repair this an no or a minamal charge. It would not hurt to give your local electric company a call.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

The backbone in a breaker box usually connects to the top cables. It alternates which phase each breaker is on. When you see two large breakers stacked as a single unit, one half is one phase, the other half is the other.

In your case, it appears that the 50A feeds either everything below it, or nothing at all.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shilala

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: shilala
I've never seen a breaker fed from another breaker the way your yellow-wire breakers are working.

I suspect that for whatever reason, the purpose of the yellow jumpers was to isolate the bottom 7 breakers so they could be turned on/off without turning on/off the master. I can only theorize that someone had wanted to a way to turn off all the non-essential circuits for some reason (during travel?, dunno, weird).

If I'm right, (while we can't see it) the breaker bar from the mains must be split between the top two rows of breakers and the bottom 2 rows. The yellow jumpers provide the connection down the break bar (one per phase).

It also appears you have a number of ground lines being run as neutrals (the bare copper lines at the bottom). Those should run to a shared ground bar (there is actually room for one on the right behind the rats nest or along the right wall. Guessing no grounds in the house? That would explain some of the setup.

Debug that black wire running to the neutral bar AND that green wire running to the last breaker on the bottom right. Most likely somebody who didn't understand why we have color codes wired stuff up, but if not that could definately indicate a dangerous configuration.

Bill

I think you're right on the ball, Bill.
What about the low voltage problem? Bad neutral connection on one side of the panel (top or bottom)?
I've still never seen a panel like that, a subpanel in a panel, but it's really pretty ingenious.
It's starting to like like it's not a big problem.

Noo, not low voltage.

Since our floors are concrete, you are greeted with a friendly zap whenever you touch anything that is plugged in - if you're in your bare feet.

If I plant my feet into the floor, grab one lead of an LED.. and touch the other lead to something plugged in... it lights

 

[sharkeeper]

Another example
Shown here is a 200A FPE box.

Your property owner should have yours changed out! They are called NO TRIP for a reason!

Make SURE all your connections are TIGHT. Use insulated drivers, that failing de-energise all buses. Have fun. Don't get the new look!