Electrical Question

[olds]

I have a receptacle where both outlets are controlled by a switch. I'd like one hot all the time and the other on the switch.

The top outlet has only a neutral wire connected.
The bottom outlet has a neutral wire and a red wire on the hot side.

I am wondering if I were to break the fin on the hot side if the top outlet would go dead?

If so, would putting in a jumper from the wire nuts with the black wires in the box to the hot side of the top outlet rectify this? After breaking the tab of course.

TIA

PIC Added

 

[herm0016]

Pics please. And hard to know with out a volt meter and being there.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Typically when you wire an outlet to a switch, the switch would see the power source first. Of course, a lot depends on if it was planned or not. Sometimes it takes a switch loop to be wired and that can cause the receptacle box to house more wires. Look at those diagrams. If you get long enough jumpers between the switch and receptacle and have an ohm meter, you can test wires for continuity on both ends with the breaker off.

You'd have to have a power source at the receptacle that wasn't switched to have it in the "on" state all the time.

I agree that a picture would help visualization on this side. If it's old work, you never know if it was done correctly unless you have a receptacle tester to verify everything....even then, switched circuits can be really off if someone didn't know what they were doing.

Switched Wall Outlet Wiring Diagrams- Do-it-yourself-help.com

Clear, easy-to-read diagrams and instructions for wiring a switched outlet where a wall switch can control the receptacle.

www.do-it-yourself-help.com

 

[sdifox]

half hot receptacle

 

[olds]

Thanks guys, I'll get a pic soon, tied up with other stuff.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Thanks guys, I'll get a pic soon, tied up with other stuff.

In your basement?

 

[Paperdoc]

Almost all common receptacles in North America are duplex - that is, there are two receptacles in one unit that mounts in a wall box. One each side (Neutral and Hot) there is a small metal bridge in the connection point between the two halves. So for normal use one connects ONE Hot wire on one side under one screw, and ONE White Neutral wire under one screw on the other side. The fact that yours has TWO White wires under adjacent screws on that side is unusual, but it MAY mean that the installer used those screws as a junction point between two Neutral wires in the box. That is NOT advised, but it gets done.

IF the intent is to have those two halves of the outlet fixture operate independently from two different Hot leads (each separately fed from breakers from different Hot bus phases), then one simply breaks off the little bridge between the halves on the HOT side only. Then the two HOT lines are connected to the separated screws on the Hot side, and a single White wire goes to the combined Neutral side that still has its bridge intact. Thus the fixture operates as two separate outlets on separate breakers, but sharing the Neutral. When this is done, the system back at the main panel uses a special DUPLEX breaker that feeds those two Hots from the two phases of the panel buses, so that if either of the circuits trips its breaker, the other ALSO trips. Thus any overload on those circuits will cut off power to BOTH of the lines into that wall box, and it is safe to work on.

With that structure, it is ALSO easy to do what OP asks about, because the two halves of the fixture CAN be separated easily. Start with: the wall box has a feed of a (Black) Hot line, a (White) Neutral line, and a bare Ground. First step is to break off that little bridge between the upper and lower halves on the HOT side. Maintain the connection of the White wire(s) to the Neutral side. Now you need a cable installed that runs out from this box to wherever the SWITCH is to be. At the switch, the two wires from that cable are attached to the two screw terminals of the switch. At the outlet box, two pigtail leads need to be connected with a wire nut to the Black Hot feed entering the box. ONE of these (MAYBE the Red lead you already have) should go to the screw for the HOT side of the outlet half you want always on - say, the lower one. The other is really the Hot (Black) wire of the NEW cable you installed going out to the switch. The WHITE wire in that cable coming back is now really the HOT return from the switch, and should be marked by taping it with black electrical tape. Then connect that lead to the HOT screw for the outlet half (say, the upper one) that is to be switch controlled. With this set up, both outlet halves are fed from a single breaker and both can be shut off entirely by that breaker in the panel. But the lower half is always on, and the upper half is controlled by the new wall switch. NOTE that there is NO change needed at the main breaker panel - no new breaker or anything.

 

[kitkat22]

I agree that you really need to know where the home run is. Typically, it is at the switch

--main---->switch--->outlet

If it like the above you are out of luck unless they put in 3way wire from the switch to the outlet which is unlikely. The only other option is sending through another wire to complete the circuit from the main to the outlet.

If it is:
--main-->outlet-->switch

Then you have a chance. You would create a pigtail at the black/hot wire and send it to one of the outlets on the duplex. Break the tabs. Take another pigtail and wire the other side as the neutral. You have now created the one as always on.

Take another pigtail from the main and connect it to the back going up to the switch. You will then convert the neutral to a black to complete the loop at the outlet. Make sure to mark the neutral with black to signify it is hot.. Finish by connecting the neutral from the main.

What I find interesting with your situation is the fact you have red and not a black attached. I bet this is an older home and they took the black to another outlet or circuit and used a common neutral.

 

[skull]

If it like the above you are out of luck unless they put in 3way wire from the switch to the outlet which is unlikely.

This is not unlikely and done all the time, probably with intent to half switch the outlet when it was roughed but whoever came back and trimmed out neglected the constant hot half.

Olds I can almost guarantee if you break the tab and pigtail the black to the top you'll have what you want.

 

[Paperdoc]

Skull makes a VERY good point. The wall box MAY already be pre-wired and fed from a switch so that ONE Hot is always live and a second Hot is controlled by the switch. The two Hots would be Red and Black. So where it the switch involved?

Right now, OP, you say both halves of the outlet are always live, and it is fed by a Red Hot wire. To start you should find the right breaker and trip it so that outlet is dead. Then remove the outlet fixture from the wall box but do NOT disconnect any wires. Look closely inside the box - is there a Black wire that is NOT connected? If so, ensure you can get a little of it bare so you can test it for power. Make SURE nothing is touching anything and turn the Breaker back on. Use a simple circuit tester to verify whether there is 120 VAC power on Red and Black, and no voltage on White. If the Black has no power, see if you can find the switch that controls it. If you do, turn off the breaker again and follow skull's advice: break the little bridge off between upper and lower halves on the HOT side, and connect Red and Black to separate screws. Re-install the fixture in the box and turn the breaker back on.

 

[Aikouka]

Skull makes a VERY good point. The wall box MAY already be pre-wired and fed from a switch so that ONE Hot is always live and a second Hot is controlled by the switch. The two Hots would be Red and Black. So where it the switch involved?

Right now, OP, you say both halves of the outlet are always live, and it is fed by a Red Hot wire. To start you should find the right breaker and trip it so that outlet is dead. Then remove the outlet fixture from the wall box but do NOT disconnect any wires. Look closely inside the box - is there a Black wire that is NOT connected? If so, ensure you can get a little of it bare so you can test it for power. Make SURE nothing is touching anything and turn the Breaker back on. Use a simple circuit tester to verify whether there is 120 VAC power on Red and Black, and no voltage on White. If the Black has no power, see if you can find the switch that controls it. If you do, turn off the breaker again and follow skull's advice: break the little bridge off between upper and lower halves on the HOT side, and connect Red and Black to separate screws. Re-install the fixture in the box and turn the breaker back on.

He did mention that the red wires are connected, and then asked about whether he could just attach the black wires. So, I would assume he's suggesting that he has both red and black, and as long as he's talking about the same cable, then I'm assuming we're dealing with 3-wire. (Albeit, that's a lot of assumptions for electrical work. )

I'd check the switch to see how it's connected, or just check the wires at the outlet with a voltmeter with the switch off and the switch on.

 

[Red Squirrel]

It's odd there would be two neutrals and one hot. But yeah I would check if there is another hot that is just tucked away. If there is a red wire that does indicate there is probably a 3 conductor cable going there so there should be a black wire somewhere.

I would also check the switch to see what wires are present there. This will help determine where the feed is coming from. It's possible the feed is actually at the plug and two of the wires leaving are actually going to the switch, in that case one wire would be wire nutted to another wire, and the other would be going to the plug, perhaps the red. It would then be possible to add another wire from the wire nut to the screw of the outlet you want live, after breaking the tab.

Very hard to know for sure without seeing it though. I would try to expose all wires in a way that makes it easy to measure but without disconnecting anything, then turn breaker on and measure everything with both switch on, and off. Check switch too to see what other wires are present.

 

[olds]

Pic added.

Rewired all 4 bedrooms. Top outlet is switched and bottom is hot all the time.

Thanks all

 

[Scarpozzi]

Pic added.

Rewired all 4 bedrooms. Top outlet is switched and bottom is hot all the time.

Thanks all

Glad you made it out of your basement. 👍

 

[skull]

Well now that theres pics, as you get bored go around the whole house, take out all those back stabs and properly wrap the side screw. Those back stabs will burn up at some point and you'll be chasing which one.