Electrical Problem?

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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I'm replacing an AC outlet. This is what I noticed:

Voltage between hot wire and white wire - 124V
Voltage between hot wire and ground - 19.9V
Voltage between white wire and ground - 25.7V

what does this mean, if anything? How do i fix it?

From my understanding it should be like this:

Voltage between hot wire and white wire - 124V
Voltage between hot wire and ground - 124V
Voltage between white wire and ground - 0V
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
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1. Are you sure you are using an AC voltmeter?
2. Personally, I know better than to start sticking probes into the wall outlet these days.
 

CoachB

Senior member
Aug 24, 2005
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I am no electrician...hate the stuff...scares me to death BUT

Sounds like you have a ground fault somewhere (which is not that uncommon I think). I work in the water industry and have, on several occasions, gotten a shock while repairing a water meter in someone's yard. Somewhere in their house, the electrical system was grounded to the plumbing and a short was occurring.

Hot to White sounds normal
Hot to ground sounds like an ineffective ground especially considering
White to ground is carrying more current.

Where is an electrician when you need one??? :D
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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Originally posted by: Born2bwire
1. Are you sure you are using an AC voltmeter?
2. Personally, I know better than to start sticking probes into the wall outlet these days.

1. Yes

2. I've installed outlets before wired to my light switches so that i can turn on the lights on my ceiling and in my Ikea cabinet at the same time. I'm saying this to give you some idea of my level of experience. I'm not claiming to be an electrician
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
Originally posted by: CoachB
I am no electrician...hate the stuff...scares me to death BUT

Sounds like you have a ground fault somewhere (which is not that uncommon I think). I work in the water industry and have, on several occasions, gotten a shock while repairing a water meter in someone's yard. Somewhere in their house, the electrical system was grounded to the plumbing and a short was occurring.

Hot to White sounds normal
Hot to ground sounds like an ineffective ground especially considering
White to ground is carrying more current.

Where is an electrician when you need one??? :D

I have an APC sure protector. When I plug it into the outlet the red "wiring fault" light is on. The same thing on the outlet right behind it (other side of the wall). Other outlets are fine. You are probably right, there is a break somewhere in the circuit between the hot wire and the ground.

If i take out the fuse and use a multimeter to locate it based on resistance would that work.

Maybe i don't need to do that. The closer to the fault the greater the voltage between the hot and ground should be, right?
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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I am assuming you are, like almost everyone in North America, using what's called a "Grounded Neutral" supply system in which the Neutral bus at the breaker panel (and at the transformer) is connected to true Ground. In that system you are quite right: Ground and Neutral should have no voltage between them, and Hot should be about 120 VAC compared to either of the other two. Your actual readings certainly indicate a fault in the Ground connection.

When you say Ground, what point are you using? Could be the U-shaped hole in the face of the outlet, of the actual bare bonding wire (Ground) inside the outlet box, or the box metal itself, or some external source.

The way it's supposed to be done is this. Start at the breaker box and the supply cable coming into it from outside. The supply should come into the top of the box with two insulated black lines going to the two input terminals of the main breaker. A third supply line (could be insulated white or just heavy bare copper) goes to the panel's Neutral bus. All the branch circuit white Neutral leads come back to this bus. There is also a separate Ground bus to which all the bare bonding (Ground) lines from the branch circuits are attached. There should be one medium-heavy bare copper Ground lead attached to the Ground bus and exiting the panel to connect to a true reliable Ground source. In many houses this is done with a saddle-shaped ground fitting on the main metal water supply line just where it enters the house, but yours might be different. The Ground bus is directly connected to the panel case itself, establishing its ground. There also is a screw through the Neutral bus that connects it to the panel case, thus ensuring that bus also is at Ground potential.

Now, back out to the outlet at the end of a branch circuit. If all three wires in the cable entering the box are functioning properly, measurements here will be almost identical to those back in the panel. The "almost" there is about the Neutral (White) lead. If there is something using current somewhere in the branch circuit, current will be flowing in both the Hot and Neutral lines, The Neutral wire has real non-zero (although VERY low) resistance, so a current flow through it back to the panel means that, at the outlet, it will have a small voltage on it compared to a true ground. Maybe only a few volts, maybe less than one, but not zero. On the other hand, the bare bonding (Ground) wire should never have a current flowing under normal circumstances (it's only a safe exit route in abnormal conditions), so it ought to have a true zero potential compared to the real "True Ground". That bare wire is supposed to be connected to two points in the outlet box. One is the box itself (via a screw in the back of the box) and the other is the Ground terminal of the outlet device. Now, just for a backup, sort of, the outlet device's Ground terminal normally also is connected to the metal frame of that device, which is in contact with the metal box at the point of mounting with screws. So that's a second means of establishing a Ground connection between the box and the bare wire from the supply cable.

So, suppose everything in the breaker panel is fine. Then suppose the bare bonding lead in the branch circuit between the panel and your outlet box is broken. Although the stuff in the box looks OK, it actually has no Ground - the bare copper lead is just floating unconnected to anything. In that case you'll get the kind of measurements you did. The voltmeter will give you a reading based on microscopic leakage currents (because the voltmeter is a very high-impedance device), but they are meaningless in the cases involving the Ground lead that really isn't. This situation can arise because of a real break in the bare copper wire in the cable, or because somewhere along the branch circuit with multiple outlet boxes, one of the Ground connections is not really connected, and everything after that is ungrounded. On most branch circuits there are several outlet boxes, and in each a cable enters bringing in the supply and it is joined both to the device in the box and to another cable that leaves, carrying the supply on to the next box. To make the junction of bare bonding leads, you are supposed to twist all of them together tightly and then wrap them abound the box's Ground screw at the back and tighten it down. If the exiting cable's bare lead is not connected properly in a box, everything after that box will have no Ground.

Another possibility is that the faulty Ground connection is right at the particular box you are examining. Normally, because the ground is supposed to be connected to both the box back screw and the outlet Ground terminal, and there is a backup connection between outlet frame and box, both of those connections would have to be defective. One way for that to happen is if the bare lead from the cable just is not connected to anything.

Since you have a voltmeter you may be able to track down where the problem is. You already know what you should see in measurements by probing the outlet's slots - you don't even have to open the cover to reach the wire terminals. And you already have recognized measurements that are wrong and indicate a problem. So next you need to establish exactly which outlets (and maybe switch boxes and light sockets) are on the same branch circuit - they all go on and off with the same breaker. Sometimes you can trace out the sequence on the branch, from the panel end all the way to the last box, and sometimes not. Anyway, take your voltage measurements at all the device boxes along the circuit and see if you can identify some that are good and some bad. If there are both good and bad ones, then there is a problem in the bare lead in the last good box, in the cable to the first bad box, or in the first bad box. Shut off the breaker and open the covers in those boxes, unscrew and pull out the outlet device (do not disconnect the wires at its terminals - there should be enough extra wire length in the box to pull it out without disconnection) and inspect the wires carefully with emphasis on the bare leads. If you can, use our meter in resistance measuring mode to check for continuity of each lead from one box to the next. You should find a faulty connection between boxes and maybe be able to see it and fix it.

Now, just suppose the very first box in the branch circuit shows the problem. Now we have two possibilities. The first is similar to what we've just looked at - there is a faulty connection in the bare lead from the panel to the first outlet box. But the other possibility is that the whole system has no Ground connection. See if you can identify a reliable Ground source, like the water supply line through the basement floor. Maybe you don't have that available to you. But if you do, check the voltage between that real Ground and the breaker panel case. It should definitely be really ZERO volts. If it does appear to be zero, do a secpond check -measure the resistance from panel to Ground, and it also should be zero ohms. Anything else on either measurement indicates the case is not Grounded or poorly grounded and your entire household system may be ungrounded. To verify, try the same type of measurements you've already made on other branch circuits. Do you get faulty Ground indications everywhere in the house? That would confirm the lack of a system Ground. Fixing this probably requires a professional electrician.

Be aware of one common way this can happen in older buildings. House wiring systems built up to about 1950, sometimes later, never had any bare bonding (Ground) leads in any of the cables supplying the branch circuits. Every such circuit had Hot and Neutral, but no Ground at all. The best solution to this was to rewire the entire house with new cabling and breaker panel, etc. Another cheaper, but almost as good solution for a few branch circuits, was to install modern Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters (GFCI's) that will do a similar protection function with no Grounds. But some people have tried to solve the problem in a very poor way. They simply replaced the original 2-prong outlets with new 3-prong ones, but since there is no bare Ground lead to use, they just didn't connect what they don't have. So you have an outlet in the wall with three holes in it, but the Ground is totally fake and unconnected! You will get measurements exactly like you have. Maybe that is the actual explanation in your case.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
You should get ~120VAC from Ground + Hot and Hot+Neutral.
If you do not then the ground is defective , not uncommon. Outside the home look for the meter box and there should be a ground wire going from the box to a ground rod in the ground. Wiring ground to plumbing pipes or gas lines is no longer allowed and should be converted to a ground rod. It is an easy do it yourself job that takes about an hour and cost maybe $20 in parts.

You need
1 - ground rod, average 8-10ft long. Copper is the best, but galvanized is also used.
1 - ground clamp - fits around ground rod so you can attach the ground wire.
10ft of ground wire , get the coated kind if you can,

Do not disconnect any current ground yet. If there is no ground then turn off the main breaker until you attach the ground to the meter base.

Drive the ground rod into the ground so that only about 8 inches is above ground. Keep it as close to the meter as possible.
Attach the ground clamp to the rod and attach the wire.
Run the wire to the meter or breaker box . Keep it as straight as you can with no sharp bends, a gradual bend is fine. Sharp bends can cause current to not follow the wire instead arcing at a sharp corner.
Attach wire to meter or breaker box.
Remove old ground wire.

If the phone or cable has tied into the old ground, move them to your new ground wire.

Doesn't take long and it gives you a solid ground connection.

 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
1
81
First of all, thank you for the very detailed response.

When you say Ground, what point are you using? Could be the U-shaped hole in the face of the outlet, of the actual bare bonding wire (Ground) inside the outlet box, or the box metal itself, or some external source.

I'm using the metal box, there is no grounding wire. The 3rd U-shaped hole is continuous with the metal frame of the outlet than mounts to the metal box.


Note the following:
1. I live on the 4th floor.
2. The building is 90 years old.
3. I have a fuse box with 6 fuses, however, the apartment is only wired to two of them!
4. There are only two outlets (behind each other on the same wall but maybe 2 feet apart) that have this problem. Everything else is fine.

In my building the ground is the metal outlet box itself, I only have the hot a neutral wire coming in. My setup is like this:

Fuse #1 is 30A and wires the lights and some outlets in the kitchen.

Fuse #2 is 30A and wires the rest of the apartment which includes all of the lights and outlets in the corridor, bathroom, living room, and two bedrooms - I think this is insane.

Fuse #3 & #4 have absolutely not apparent function. When I test each of their voltage between the hot and neutral terminals it is 48V (WTF?!). When I test the voltage between the hot terminal and a screw on the fuse box is get 123V. Fuse #3 is 30A and #4 is 20A

Fuse #5 & #6 also have absolutely not apparent function. When I test each of their voltage between the hot and neutral terminals it is 2-3V (yes, two to three volts). When I test the voltage between the hot terminal and a screw on the fuse box is get 123V. Fuse #5 is 30A and #6 is 30A

When I disconnect fuses 3, 4, 5, and 6 the problem does not go away; i get the same readings on those outlets. I think what happened was that a long time ago there was a short somewhere in the wall and some dumb-ass electrician decided to fix the problem by rewiring the entire apartment to two fuses.

Very important question:

Is this situation a waste of electricity which is causing my electric bill to be higher than it should?


I should also mention that I opened two light switch boxes and found some hot wires covered in electrical tape and not connected to anything. When I tested the voltage between the hot wires and the metal box (my only ground it was around 40V.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
You probably live in a building that was wired before the code requirements for grounding. If outlets are in a metal box then it is probably wired with BX, it is a flexible like metal conduit that can provide a good ground. The problem is that it is usually point to point with one connection back to the meter. If the conduit comes loose from any one box all the ones down the line will lose ground. Modern wiring requires that after so many outlets the ground wire connecting them goes back to the meter so you don't lose ground at every outlet in the home because one loose conduit connection.

There is no way that two 30A circuits would pass code now. I assume you have a gas stove , water heater and dryer ? The electric versions of those things alone can use up the circuits you have.
The problem with a situation like this is that you often cannot just replace the fuse box with a breaker box with more circuits since the main feed to the box is probably too small. So you have to run a whole new line from the new breaker box all the way back to the meter.

Measuring voltages between different points on the fuse box shows that something is wrong. You cannot tell how much though with just a meter. Volt meters measure voltage at very low current levels. So you could only have 10ma current and the meter would read it the same as 100A.

If you are REALLY careful there is a cheap way to see just how bad the situation is. Get an old lamp and cut off the cord. Use the lamp cord wires in place of the meter probes. How bright the lamp is will tell you how much current difference there really is. In a normal home connecting the lamp between hot + Ground should be the same brightness as hot+neutral.

Is it costing you more on your bill ?
Depends on what is wrong. For it to cost more you would have to have somewhere for the power to go. Meaning if the above lamp draws 60W normally and you connected it to an outlet that had loose connections then the lamp could draw more than 60W. The lost power would be in heat at the loose connection.

If you own the place, then I would seek out a electrician and ask about upgrading the service to the 200A standard. It really is too big a job for a non pro, requires the power company input, permits and such.

Black tape on wires inside switch boxes is normal. It is used to mark when a wire is not carrying what its color represents. So if I use a white wire as the return from a light fixture I would place black tape around it to let others know it is now being used as a hot wire.

You could try installing ARC fault outlets. They can provide some safety and trip less than GFCI breakers, which could be a problem in a building with such low quality wiring.



Edit:

One other thing to check. Using the meter measure between the kitchen sink and a outlet nearby. If the sink drain or water pipe is metal it is often grounded in old buildings. That can be dangerous if normal outlets are used around the sink. If you happen to be washing dishes, or touching the sink and touch something like a can opener that is leaking current, it can shock or kill. Which is why GFCI is required near anything like a sink, outdoors, basement, garage.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,473
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Your very old wiring system has no Grounds at all. The metal boxes in which outlets are mounted are NOT grounded, which accounts for all your odd readings there. My guess is there is not even BX cable with spiral metal sheathing on it. In the 1930's to 1960's the most common cable type for branch circuits was called Loomex. It simply combined two conductors (black for Hot, white for Neutral) inside one flexible woven casing. It had no Ground in it. Current cables have those two color coded conductors for the current, plus a bare Bonding wire to provide a true ground at every metal mounting box. The cable is still called -2, as in "14-2" because it has two CURRENT-CARRYING conductors.

But earlier than that - my house was this way when we moved in in the '70's, so I rewired everything - the wiring was often "Knob and Tube". In that system there were no two-conductor cables. Each circuit, of course, had to have two current-carrying conductors. But each was insulated (of course) in black flexible rubber and fabric and run separately. To support them they used periodic ceramic insulation posts nailed to the wood joists, called "Knobs". Where the conductor had to go through something like a stud, they drilled a hole and inserted a tubular ceramic sleeve, then fed the wire though that. It was the "Tube". That system (no surprise) had no hint of Ground wires

Your system may be similar to what I had originally, so here's some info. The fuse box had a pair of 60-amp main fuses in the supply right after the switch. Mine had the screw-in fuses for branch circuits mounted in ceramic units stuck through the outside of the box, and supplied inside from the main fuses with short connecting wires - there ware no buses. There was a central connection point for Neutral wires. For supply to the stove (a large load) there were no dedicated fuses. The stove was powered directly off the main pair of 60 amp fuses, and those were the protection for the stove as well as for the whole house.

In my old original system I was shocked (sorry, bad pun!) to realize that some of the fuses were in the Hot lines to the branch circuits, and some were in the Neutral lines coming back! You NEVER put a fuse in the Neutral line because if it blows the circuit is non-functional but still live and hazardous to work on! I don't know if that is in part of your fuse box, but maybe, considering your odd voltage readings.

Regarding the fuse sizes, I worry that someone has made a bad mistake. The fuse size is there to limit the current available in the branch circuit to protect two things. One is the device itself that you plug into an outlet - a lamp, a toaster, whatever. The other is to protect the supply wiring built into the wall. Most of that wiring was sized for 15 amps, or maybe 20. But as people started using more and more devices in houses with low-capacity older systems, they kept blowing fuses and some people simply put in bigger fuses until they didn't blow anymore. The result can be - and this is probably your case - you have wiring able to handle 15 amps, but actually permitted to carry 30 amps before a fuse blows to protect it. That is potentially dangerous! To be safe you really should replace those fuses with 15 amp ones (20 at most) and learn to live with not using too many electrical items at the same time. Oh, and keep on hand a stock of spare fuses and a flashlight!
 

futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
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The readings you were took were due to a small amount of leakage current flowing from the hot wire to the junction box. This is normal if there is no bare bonding wire from the panel and is likely nothing to be worried about. Now, if you start losing equipment such as tv's and microwaves you'll want to tell your superintendent right away to have it looked at.
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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Originally posted by: Modelworks
You probably live in a building that was wired before the code requirements for grounding. If outlets are in a metal box then it is probably wired with BX, it is a flexible like metal conduit that can provide a good ground. The problem is that it is usually point to point with one connection back to the meter. If the conduit comes loose from any one box all the ones down the line will lose ground. Modern wiring requires that after so many outlets the ground wire connecting them goes back to the meter so you don't lose ground at every outlet in the home because one loose conduit connection.

At the moment everything seems to be grounded properly.

Measuring voltages between different points on the fuse box shows that something is wrong. You cannot tell how much though with just a meter. Volt meters measure voltage at very low current levels. So you could only have 10ma current and the meter would read it the same as 100A.

If you are REALLY careful there is a cheap way to see just how bad the situation is. Get an old lamp and cut off the cord. Use the lamp cord wires in place of the meter probes. How bright the lamp is will tell you how much current difference there really is. In a normal home connecting the lamp between hot + Ground should be the same brightness as hot+neutral.

I'll try that tomorrow. I actually have an light bulb socket laying around.

Black tape on wires inside switch boxes is normal. It is used to mark when a wire is not carrying what its color represents. So if I use a white wire as the return from a light fixture I would place black tape around it to let others know it is now being used as a hot wire.

This is black tape around wires that aren't connected to anything; as if they were once use but are no longer used.

One other thing to check. Using the meter measure between the kitchen sink and a outlet nearby. If the sink drain or water pipe is metal it is often grounded in old buildings. That can be dangerous if normal outlets are used around the sink. If you happen to be washing dishes, or touching the sink and touch something like a can opener that is leaking current, it can shock or kill. Which is why GFCI is required near anything like a sink, outdoors, basement, garage.

There is continuity between the ground and the pipe and I get a 123V reading when I connect the hot terminal to the metal pipe, at lease I have proper grounding.

 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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UPDATE:

Fuse #4 (the single 20 A fuse) has a purpose! It only control one outlet in the kitchen ...that happens to be by the sink


There is no way that two 30A circuits would pass code now. I assume you have a gas stove , water heater and dryer ? The electric versions of those things alone can use up the circuits you have.
The problem with a situation like this is that you often cannot just replace the fuse box with a breaker box with more circuits since the main feed to the box is probably too small. So you have to run a whole new line from the new breaker box all the way back to the meter.

I though that 30A fuses were not supposed to fit into 15A sockets. The fuse box might have been modified as the 20A fuse has its own smaller socket.

I'm going to do some electrical forensics:

Once upon a time there was an apartment where outlet and lighting circuit were on a separate 15A fuses. There were 5 of these 15A fuses and a single 20A fuse to handle the powerful compressor of a kitchen refrigerator and the powerful AC motor of a washing machine. The previous tenant constantly overloaded the 15 A circuits and the fuses always blow. So he had a great idea: get stronger fuses and a fuse box that fits them.

Now instead of the fuses going out the in wall wiring started going out. This is why there are outlets that don't work at all and light switches that do absolutely nothing (ex: near a dead internal outlet, there is an external outlet mounted to the wall that has its wire running neatly along the wall molding, all the way to the other side of the room, where it plugs into a working outlet). In the corridor there is a light switch between the living room light switch and the corridor light switch that currently does nothing, but in the past it probably powered that dead outlet. There is the same situation with the dead outlet and light switch in my mothers bed room.

With the wiring between the fuses now damaged, the previous tenant decides to wire whatever is left to the two working 30A fuse.

Makes sense?
 

KurskKnyaz

Senior member
Dec 1, 2003
880
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Originally posted by: Paperdoc
Your very old wiring system has no Grounds at all. The metal boxes in which outlets are mounted are NOT grounded, which accounts for all your odd readings there.

That 20A outlet I mentioned a post ago: there is continuity between the ground and the metal pipe and 123V between the hot terminal and the metal pipe.

My guess is there is not even BX cable with spiral metal sheathing on it. In the 1930's to 1960's the most common cable type for branch circuits was called Loomex. It simply combined two conductors (black for Hot, white for Neutral) inside one flexible woven casing.

Exactly. However, the metal casing is grounded. The woven insulation is keeping the plastic insulation under it from falling apart as it is very brittle.

For supply to the stove (a large load) there were no dedicated fuses. The stove was powered directly off the main pair of 60 amp fuses, and those were the protection for the stove as well as for the whole house.

why would the stove be a large load? I have a gas stove and the only thing electrical is the pilot light, AFAIK.

Regarding the fuse sizes, I worry that someone has made a bad mistake. The fuse size is there to limit the current available in the branch circuit to protect two things. One is the device itself that you plug into an outlet - a lamp, a toaster, whatever. The other is to protect the supply wiring built into the wall. Most of that wiring was sized for 15 amps, or maybe 20. But as people started using more and more devices in houses with low-capacity older systems, they kept blowing fuses and some people simply put in bigger fuses until they didn't blow anymore.

That is probably what happened. See my other post. However, I though it would be physically impossible to put a 30A fuse in a 15A socket. The 20A socket for the kitchen is smaller than the rest.

The reason I made this thread was that my mom purchased a 8,000BTU Ac to replace the perfectly fine 12,000 BTU we had because she was afraid of causing a fire. The wall above the dead power switch that I mentioned in the earlier post would get very warm when it was running and it was also connected to that outlet that had the wiring fault (I believe the source of the fault is at the area where it gets hot). I told her that a fire would be impossible because the fuse won't allow it, all the wiring is sealed in metal tubes, and the insulation on wires releases a flame retardant if they burn out.

I told here to return the AC and that the ungrounded power strip she had it hooked up to was insufficient (the plastic on it was beginning to melt). On top of that, as it turns out, the outlet the strip was hooked up to had faulted wiring and, even worse, it was on the same fuse as the entire apartment (minus the kitchen).

If you read my recent post i mentioned that the single 20A fuse turns out to have a function: It powers only a single block of four outlets by the kitchen sink and that is it.

Because the wall it is on is the wall dividing the kitchen and living room (better yet is is actually near the AC), what i will do is drop down a Romex cable from that outlet box and install a new outlet in the living room that will be connected to that 20A fuse. That was i have my kitchen on a one 30A fuse, the rest of the apartment on another 30A fuse, and the 12,000 BTU AC that drawn 10.2 amps on its on 20A fuse that wil be shared with the washing machine (but not at the same time).

What do you think of that idea? Also, is Romex cable fine for the job? I can hook up the bare copper ground wire to the radiator pipe near by.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
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"Why would the stove be a large load? I have a gas stove and the only thing electrical is the pilot light, AFAIK."

OK, I made a bad assumption, that you have an electric stove. You are right, a gas stove with only an electric pilot igniter presents almost no electrical load. Hence, your stove won't be connected directly to the main service entrance fuses.

Modern codes usually require in the kitchen a minimum number of higher-capacity outlets to allow use of several appliances like electric frypans, toasters, coffee makers, etc. In the USA the requirement seems to be a duplex outlet (that is, a 2-outlet device in a box) fed from the panel by a 12-2 cable and a 20 amp fuse. The outlet itself is a little different in that each part has two vertical slots for the "normal" 15-amp plug, plus modifications to those slots to allow for horizontal blades that are used for 20-amp plugs. This allows you to plug in up to 2 devices, with either 15- or 20-amp plugs on the ends of their cords, as long as the total connected load does not exceed 20 amps and blow the fuse. In Canada, the requirements are a little different, but that does not apply to you. It looks like at some time the landlord tried to provide one outlet of this type in your kitchen. The intent, usually, is that only one outlet box and device would be on this circuit just to avoid overloading it, whereas you plan to extend the circuit by adding another outlet. However, the whole rest of your system is nowhere near code requirements, so this is a small point.

Regarding you plans for establishing a Ground for this outlet, you should realize that the radiator pipe is not necessarily a reliable ground - in fact, it probably is not. Your voltmeter and resistance meter may indicate that it is a near-zero volts compared to real Ground, although I'd certainly question where you get a "real Ground" to compare to. What your meter cannot tell you is whether that pipe's resistance to true Ground is in the range fractions of one ohm. I don't know the specs exactly, but the intent of a true Ground for electrical systems, for safety reasons, is that when a fault occurs and the entire hot supply (limited by the circuit fuse, which could be up to 30 amps on a simple branch circuit) is connected to the appliance case that is exposed to touching by people, the resulting voltage available to touch is less than some specification. I suspect that is of the order of 10 volts, because that voltage applied across a person's chest produces a small current, whereas as little as 30 volts can result in a current through the chest sufficient to disrupt heart rhythm. So the resistance from an outlet's Ground connection to a true Ground should be less than 10/30, or 0.33 ohms if my speculated numbers are correct - and the truth is probably less resistance than that! Without access to a proper true Ground in your building, you have a difficult ask.

The typical screw-in fuses I have seen are all the same physical dimensions from 15 through 35 amps, so they all will fit into a standard fuse holder on a fuse panel. That's why it is possible to put the wrong fuse in, as has happened in you case. I'm not at all clear why the 20-amp circuit there appears to have an odd fuse dimension.

What is more scary, though, is that you already have proof of the high risk involved. You have experienced running heavy loads on the local circuits that did not blow out the fuses (because they're oversized at 30 amps), but did produce significant heat in the wires embedded in the walls. That is because the wires cannot carry such a load safely - they were never large enough for that, and never should have had a 30 amp protector! The heat generated, whether in the wires or in poor connection points, carries the very real potential of creating a fire - especially inside the enclosed space of a wall. And of course, you won't see that fire until it bursts through the wall, at which time you have a BIG problem!
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
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One other tip.
Never run an air conditioner or other large appliance off a surge suppressor or extension chord. They are normally not made for the load that occurs when these appliances start. Sometimes it will melt the power strip or chord and sometimes the appliance will have trouble even starting up. Always plug them directly into an outlet or buy a chord that states it is for appliance use. They are much heavier chords.
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
2
0
So you have an outlet in the wall with three holes in it, but the Ground is totally fake and unconnected!

More common than you'd think. Nothing you can reasonably do about it. The fix: Rewire the whole building. Alternatively run 0 gauge wire or inch or 2 copper strap down the side of the building, bonding your fusebox to it. Run new 12 gauge or larger bare copper or insulated would be ok too - to each box. Pound an 8 foot or longer bare copper ground rod into the earth, several would work slightly better, bonding them with 4 AWG or larger.

 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
81
Originally posted by: bobdole369
So you have an outlet in the wall with three holes in it, but the Ground is totally fake and unconnected!

More common than you'd think. Nothing you can reasonably do about it. The fix: Rewire the whole building. Alternatively run 0 gauge wire or inch or 2 copper strap down the side of the building, bonding your fusebox to it. Run new 12 gauge or larger bare copper or insulated would be ok too - to each box. Pound an 8 foot or longer bare copper ground rod into the earth, several would work slightly better, bonding them with 4 AWG or larger.

My new house has no earth ground connection in most of the outlets because it was built in 1950. Back then, they only ran 2-conductor lines to the outlets and the outlets had no ground pin. The house and box are properly grounded as are the updated kitchen outlets, but the rest aren't. The only fix is to run a ground wire through the walls or over the floor or something.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
In your case, if you are a renter (likely in Brooklyn) call you landlord and have him get an electrician to fix all the wiring before the building burns down. You have a very serious issue in there that must be fixed. If the landlord doesn't want to do it, call in the NYC Fire Inspector. That will start the ball rolling with things like violations, fines, etc. NYC Fire and Electrical codes are very tough. Toughest in all the USA .. If it is your own home or a brownstone, then I would also suggest you get it rewired, even if it runs a few thousand or so to do. It is your safety at risk here.