Electrical Engineers, I need your opinions.

[SSSnail]

In most of today's electric or hybrid vehicles, the batteries get recharged on regenerative braking energy. Now, what would be so hard to design four generators on each wheel shaft, and have another recharging source when the car is moving?

Take Tesla for instance, a complete electric car, with a limited range of 250 miles. I don't know much about electrical engineering, so my question to you is, if the design is efficient, theoretically how much energy could these four generators produce? I think if implemented properly, it could extend the range of electric vehicles. Of course I've thought about added weight and power produced. But, that's why you guys are here, to answer what I can't.

I posted part of this in Highly Technical, but I wanted to have more exposures and get a bit more informed opinions on this matter.

 

[mchammer187]

if you put any sort of generator on each wheel that is powered while it moves than aren't you just going to lose efficiency to move the car ie you are increasing the energy that takes to move the car

this wouldn't be so bad if a generator was 100% efficient but generators can not even come close to that

breaking energy is free energy essentially because it would otherwise be wasted

 

[SSSnail]

But, through electromagnetic induction, I don't see a lot of increased energy required to move the car. Maybe I failed to mentioned this in the OP, but all you're really doing is placing some coils around the shaft that have some magnetic plates bound to it, or vice versa (0 friction). I could be wrong, just thought it's a good idea.

 

[Squisher]

The generators use up the force that propels the vehicle to make electricity, therefore they are trying to stop the vehicle, but are being turned by it's engine as it rolls down the road. A generator is a machine, all machines suffer from inefficacies. There would be no point in slowing the vehicle down by attaching a generator when the point is getting somewhere.

You can't use "A" which produces energy "B" to produce more of "A" then what you had originally.

 

[SSSnail]

Alright, you guys remember the Dynamo right? it has a wheel that when turned, will produce a current. Now, instead of using any energy to spin that wheel, imagine that wheel being the wheel shafts (which spin anyways when a car is moving). Using kinetics, I think it's possible to produce energy that way. I'm not looking for more energy than originally started (Nobel prize with infinite energy on a train track around the world? haha), I'm just looking for a way to extend the range of an electric vehicle.

 

[Howard]

You ARE looking for free energy. The electrical energy produced by a generator comes from kinetic energy. You cannot make free electricity from kinetic energy.

 

[SSSnail]

Originally posted by: Howard
You ARE looking for free energy. The electrical energy produced by a generator comes from kinetic energy. You cannot make free electricity from kinetic energy.

Well, you are partially right, I do want to see if I can get energy from the wasted kinetic of a car moving forward. It's not completely free since it has to move before I can get energy off of it.

Alright, since I don't know how this work, lets say I have four of these thingimagics on each shaft. How much energy could I potentially get off these four generators if each wheel shaft would be spinning at 600 RPMs @ 65 mph (a number that I just pull out of thin air).

 

[Heisenberg]

How much energy you could get is irrelevant. The point is that any energy you get from those "generators" would be energy otherwise used to propel the car. You cannot gain any more energy than you have stored in the fuel cells/batteries. It would be equivalent to free energy, as Howard said and thus violates basic thermodynamics.

 

[Howard]

There are some hybrid drivetrains which convert wasted kinetic energy into either potential energy (Ford's HLA system) or electricity (using generators as brakes). Don't expect to ever get any energy from the car while you want it to keep going forward, though, otherwise the engine will have to supply more power, and since efficiency is never 100%, you're just screwing yourself. Even if the efficiency of the whole system was 100%, there would be no point to tossing energy around.

 

[SSSnail]

How about this leet drawing? like I said, the idea of free energy is a fairy tale. All I'm looking for is to extend the life of the charge, since the energy produced by the car's motion, while will not be infinite, but I thought it would help in some aspects?

Unless my understanding of electromagnetic induction is wrong, I don't see why I can't get energy off the design.

 

[Howard]

I understand what you're talking about, but why do you want to extend (heh) the life of the charge when doing so will require more fuel, for a hybrid, or MORE electrical energy for a purely electric drivetrain?

 

[SSSnail]

Suppose the car has two battery systems that can be controlled, so while one is providing energy, one is charging (and alternating). By using the sheer kinetics of the vehicle, it may extend the range to, say +50 miles, which is a stretch. Feasible?

 

[slackwarelinux]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Suppose the car has two battery systems that can be controlled, so while one is providing energy, one is charging (and alternating). By using the sheer kinetics of the vehicle, it may extend the range to, say +50 miles, which is a stretch. Feasible?

If I remember my my three week course last year on electronics correctly, no, not really. As you generate energy from the coils and magnets and whatnot, there is also resistance, pushing against the direction of movement, I think. In effect, if I remember correctly, you would just be converting electrical energy to kinetic energy, then back into electrical energy, then into chemical potential energy, and losing energy every step along the way. I would think the only time when it is practical to convert the kinetic energy of the car into electrical energy is when that energy would otherwise go to waste, like while breaking.

 

[So]

I don't think you realize that the magnetic field of the generator will produce a counter force or just how big of a force the magnetic field of the generator will be.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Suppose the car has two battery systems that can be controlled, so while one is providing energy, one is charging (and alternating). By using the sheer kinetics of the vehicle, it may extend the range to, say +50 miles, which is a stretch. Feasible?

You've completely lost me.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
In most of today's electric or hybrid vehicles, the batteries get recharged on regenerative braking energy. Now, what would be so hard to design four generators on each wheel shaft, and have another recharging source when the car is moving?

Take Tesla for instance, a complete electric car, with a limited range of 250 miles. I don't know much about electrical engineering, so my question to you is, if the design is efficient, theoretically how much energy could these four generators produce? I think if implemented properly, it could extend the range of electric vehicles. Of course I've thought about added weight and power produced. But, that's why you guys are here, to answer what I can't.

I posted part of this in Highly Technical, but I wanted to have more exposures and get a bit more informed opinions on this matter.

a generator on the front axle is enough, most of the braking force is from the front wheels anyways.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Feasible?

NO, No, and no. It's way past your bedtime and the more I look in on this thread the more I realize I need more of my medicine.

 

[MazerRackham]

In this house we obey the Laws of Thermodynamics.

 

[BrownTown]

As everyone has pointed out, this is of coruse not possible as it breaks the laws of thermodynamics. The problem is that you DO infact have a faulty understanding on electromagnetic induction. You see, you are right in the first part that a chaning magnetic field (like magents rotating on an axle) will cause an electric current to flow in a wire. What you fail to understand is that there is a force which will push back AGAINST the axle. So, all the generators do is convert the kinetic energy of the rotating axle into electric energy. NO new energy is created (as this violates every principle of physics imaginable). What you are proposing is a perpetual motion machine, which is not possible. The idea behind regenerative breaking is that instead of using the force of friction between the break pads and the wheels to slow the car down you use the force talked about earlier to slow the car down, and the kinetic energy from teh cars motion is turned back into electrical energy which can be stored in batteries (with normal brakes it is turned into heat and is forever lost).

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: mchammer187
if you put any sort of generator on each wheel that is powered while it moves than aren't you just going to lose efficiency to move the car ie you are increasing the energy that takes to move the car

this wouldn't be so bad if a generator was 100% efficient but generators can not even come close to that

breaking energy is free energy essentially because it would otherwise be wasted

That's not how induction works. The generators would not be touching the axles at all; no friction is applied by the generator. The rotating bar would supposedly induce a current in the "generator" that is not connected to the rotating bar.

OP, I don't know enough about induction or engineering to tell you anything about this, my E&M sucks... I guess in theory it should work if the bar were charged, but does an uncharged rotating rod induce current? I didn't think that it should.

Say you have a loop of wire with a current running through it. Take another loop of wire and move it closer to the loop with a current and you should see a current induced in the second loop of wire. Where does this energy come from? I believe it comes from the battery, which loses energy to the second loop of wire.

 

[mchammer187]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: mchammer187
if you put any sort of generator on each wheel that is powered while it moves than aren't you just going to lose efficiency to move the car ie you are increasing the energy that takes to move the car

this wouldn't be so bad if a generator was 100% efficient but generators can not even come close to that

breaking energy is free energy essentially because it would otherwise be wasted

That's not how induction works. The generators would not be touching the axles at all; no friction is applied by the generator. The rotating bar would supposedly induce a current in the "generator" that is not connected to the rotating bar.

OP, I don't know enough about induction or engineering to tell you anything about this, my E&M sucks... I guess in theory it should work if the bar were charged, but does an uncharged rotating rod induce current? I didn't think that it should.

Say you have a loop of wire with a current running through it. Take another loop of wire and move it closer to the loop with a current and you should see a current induced in the second loop of wire. Where does this energy come from? I believe it comes from the battery, which loses energy to the second loop of wire.

i know how induction works regardless of whether there is friction or not it still requires energy to induce the current and the energy has to come from somewhere otherwise once you overcome the energy required to get a generator going you would be essentially getting free energy

all i was saying was any energy gained by placement of a generator only increase the energy required to propel the car forward

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
How about this leet drawing? like I said, the idea of free energy is a fairy tale. All I'm looking for is to extend the life of the charge, since the energy produced by the car's motion, while will not be infinite, but I thought it would help in some aspects?

Unless my understanding of electromagnetic induction is wrong, I don't see why I can't get energy off the design.

:roll: OP, stop trying to "explain it better" and prove your point. The fact is, you are wrong, just admit it and move on. Jeez.

Layman's Terms for OP
The thing is you convert the kinetic energy of the system where the systems main purpose is to be moving, you lose that movement by converting it to an energy source. Even in a system where the generator convert 100% efficient, to electricity and back, which isn't possible BTW, you have gained nothing. The reason why braking energy is used for electricity is it is wasted kinetic energy.

You could convert wasted heat energy and minute vibration enerygy into electricity, but people are already doing that. Make sure you read the people's comments before trying to prove something which is obviously false.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: SSSnail
Suppose the car has two battery systems that can be controlled, so while one is providing energy, one is charging (and alternating). By using the sheer kinetics of the vehicle, it may extend the range to, say +50 miles, which is a stretch. Feasible?

You still fail to understand the simple concept of conservation of energy and entropy. If the purpose of the vehicle is to move and use the kinetic energy, even if you attempt to convert the kinetic energy being used (braking energy is not used, so therefore wasted and generators can convert that with no loss to the purpose of the system), by entropy you will lose energy and by conservation of energy you will get no "free" energy in the system.

Alternating and direct doesn't matter. In fact, it would be better to attempt to improve the mechanical process of motors to increase the efficiency, which is terribly low still. But that is more of a ME job, unless as a EE you make tungsten circuits (to withstand the heat while being placed in the motor) and an algorithm to more efficiently burn the fuel in the motor, which again, people try to do (except with spark plugs).

**EDIT**
Of course if you are talking quanta and the actual study of "Free Energy" (perpetual motion systems), that is completely different than what you are arguing.

 

[FoBoT]

there is no free energy

 

[0]

These guys already did it! -->http://www.steorn.net/en/technology.aspx?p=5